UK - Alesha MacPhail, 6, raped & murdered, Ardbeg, Isle of Bute, Scotland, 2 Jul 2018 -*arrest* #3

[neteditor]

No, I'm sure you're right I didn't explain myself properly sorry.

Thank you. I'm using this document but my brain is fogging over!

http://www.scotland-judiciary.org.uk/Upload/Documents/JuryManualJune2017.pdf

 

[charlotte123456]

I would vote on each charge first, then see if there was a majority, then have everyone speak their reasoning and then vote again. If there was a majority on the first vote i'd try to ascertain if those in dissent were ok with just returning right away, if they were really unhappy then discussion should definitely follow.

In a case like this i'd not be picked, due to my own history (as a child victim of sexual assault) but if i WAS i would NOT want to sit turning over such horrible graphic evidence for hours unless we needed to either.

I’m so sorry to hear about your childhood x I hope the perpetrator was brought to justice and that you have had lots of support.

 

[Edinlass]

Will we find out how many jurors agreed to one side or the other? Or indeed if it was all or a majority or what? Sorry rambling..

 

[Alyce]

Isn't 8/15 a majority?

Yes, that is the point. With 15 jurors this kind of split can always be achieved without the Judge having to ask for a majority verdict.
In England we do have to , sometimes, ask for a majority because our benchmark is higher, with needing all 12 jurors to agree.

I re wrote my earlier post which I hope makes it clearer.

 

[beseeingyou]

Hi beeseeingyou, i'm new to websleuths but not to truecrime so yes, i am aware of several cases where DNA was planted and/or the police evidence was tampered with or rigged in some way. However I feel in most of those cases there is evidence from the beginning either of police incompetence OR of a very clever person in the vicinity who is obviously so. I'm not in the court (though i walked my dogs past it three times yesterday and saw some involved outside) and have no idea of the full evidence, so i can only really speak to what has been seen in the press. But from all i HAVE seen in the press i just cannot work out how TM could have done this without being an absolute criminal genius, and i just can't see her as that. If the accused had said SHE had taken/kept his clothes for some reason, it would make me think she had been planning a set up (I know he said she had his hoodie, but it was the one item without evidence on it, she could have covered it in blood and DNA from victim and accused, why didn't she?). Or if he'd stated sex between them had stopped but she suddenly initiated again (because she had her plan perfected and needed his DNA that night). Or if he'd said they'd never had sex before and she sought him out that night, or never used condoms but did that night. But he makes it sound like they did as they always had done and THIS time it turned out she was framing him for a murder. It makes no sense to me, as i think in most murders of children a parent is involved, and she had ongoing access to Rab's DNA and probably semen. Why frame this random teenager and risk being caught when police are actively expecting it to be someone in the family of the child?

I do take your point that sometimes things are not as they seem, i just think that in this case they are.

Respectfully, i think the mistake you may be making is reading what is written in the press as some kind of guide to all of this. If you step back and look at it for what it is, things are much easier to see.

There are a couple of points i'd re-iterate:

Firstly, that the alternative scenario could well be driven by motive - jealousy and obsession. In many ways it could constitute a crime of passion. Both aspects have been documented both in and out of court. Both make sense.

Secondly, why frame a partner you are obsessed with ? It makes far more sense if you're going to frame anyone to frame the local teenager who has been the subject of rumour and gossip regarding potential previous incidents.

It may seem far fetched, but looking at things collectively i can't honestly say i think that.

 

[404_notfound]

I’m so sorry to hear about your childhood x I hope the perpetrator was brought to justice and that you have had lots of support.

Justice was mostly done, and i'm very well and well supported thank you. It certainly casts a slant on things like this though.

 

[Alyce]

What if 5 say guilty, 5 say not guilty, 5 say not proven? Or do the jury not have the not proven option?

Not proven is added to not guilty, so he would be freed, based on those figures

 

[bronbaby]

Please please please! Let there be justice for Alesha!

 

[Kikixxxx]

Justice was mostly done, and i'm very well and well supported thank you. It certainly casts a slant on things like this though.

I have read a lot of your posts and everything you say is just a more eloquent way of How I could say it lol

You summed up the case for me earlier perfectly, that Toni would have to be some kind of criminal genius to pull off a stunt like this but leaving no evidence or cctv to implicate her at all.

I think deep down we all know what the verdict will be but we feel so passionate about this case that there is a tiny bit of anxiety that this boy might actually walk free.

It’s even been effecting my sleep no lie.

 

[neteditor]

*starts obsessively refreshing Twitter*

 

[Thebutlerdiditagain]

Respectfully, i think the mistake you may be making is reading what is written in the press as some kind of guide to all of this. If you step back and look at it for what it is, things are much easier to see.

There are a couple of points i'd re-iterate:

Firstly, that the alternative scenario could well be driven by motive - jealousy and obsession. In many ways it could constitute a crime of passion. Both aspects have been documented both in and out of court. Both make sense.

Secondly, why frame a partner you are obsessed with ? It makes far more sense if you're going to frame anyone to frame the local teenager who has been the subject of rumour and gossip regarding potential previous incidents.

It may seem far fetched, but looking at things collectively i can't honestly say i think that.

Far fetched imo the framing scenario is ridiculous and really something of films
This crime is not a crime someone could mimic it is done by someone who is not wired correctly the amount of injuries etc

A person trying to do this to frame someone does not add up to me this is a person who has done this through a warped sexual motive and with the dna clothing and his movements on the night I really can only in what we have been given see it one way

 

[charlotte123456]

I think we will hear today. I completely trust in the process. Whatever the outcome, we must accept that there is still so much that we don’t know.

Interestingly, despite some people referring to this as a “witch hunt”, I feel that emotions are running so high that it is actually the opposite. I do believe the accused is guilty based on the FACTS that I have HEARD thus far. However, I do not think I am alone in hoping somewhere deep within me that a 16 year old boy is incapable of these unspeakable acts.

The evidence, in my opinion, is overwhelmingly stacked against the accused. BUT, I do have faith in the legal system and a jury of my peers. IF a not guilty verdict is given, I will accept that justice has been done as none of us are on that jury and privy to the full facts.

In my opinion, the accused is guilty. Not a witch hunt, it is with a heavy heart.

 

[Makershaker]

Double post. . Delete.

 

[Pooksthebear]

Respectfully, i think the mistake you may be making is reading what is written in the press as some kind of guide to all of this. If you step back and look at it for what it is, things are much easier to see.

There are a couple of points i'd re-iterate:

Firstly, that the alternative scenario could well be driven by motive - jealousy and obsession. In many ways it could constitute a crime of passion. Both aspects have been documented both in and out of court. Both make sense.

Secondly, why frame a partner you are obsessed with ? It makes far more sense if you're going to frame anyone to frame the local teenager who has been the subject of rumour and gossip regarding potential previous incidents.

It may seem far fetched, but looking at things collectively i can't honestly say i think that.

But how does that alternative scenario work with the shadowy figure on the cctv? It would either mean you have to discount it as evidence or include it and assume it was Toni.. in which case she would have to have met the accused, had a cigarette and chat, gone to beach for sex, go home, get the framing kit, get Alesha and be by that cctv camera within 28 minutes

 

[Makershaker]

When I was on a jury at the same court, we discussed the case non-stop. The only time we were told to stop was when people continued talking about the case infront of the ladies who were serving us lunch.

I agree with this. I was on a Jury, same court.. lasted 10 days. You discuss everything about the case non stop.. except when the lunches are being served. It took us about 1 hour to decide on the verdict.

 

[beseeingyou]

But how does that alternative scenario work with the shadowy figure on the cctv? It would either mean you have to discount it as evidence or include it and assume it was Toni.. in which case she would have to have met the accused, had a cigarette and chat, gone to beach for sex, go home, get the framing kit, get Alesha and be by that cctv camera within 28 minutes

Was it proven who the 'shadowy' figure is ? The fact the person on CCTV is described as shadowy in the first place is enough to make it inconclusive. It may well have been the accused. Equally it could have been someone else. The timings fit but without a clear CCTV image of whoever that was it cannot be said for certain that it was the accused.

 

[Thebutlerdiditagain]

I really don’t see anything in the defence apart from dragging out the case putting the family through this
I cannot believe they did not try the guilty route but maybe this speaks volumes of the accused
Taking the stand accusing the girlfriend and not really explaining his movements clothing dna etc a pure narcissist

 

[Alyce]

Trying to remember the shortest verdict I have known, on here. Think it was just over an hour

 

[Taskforce88]

Was it proven who the 'shadowy' figure is ? The fact the person on CCTV is described as shadowy in the first place is enough to make it inconclusive. It may well have been the accused. Equally it could have been someone else. The timings fit but without a clear CCTV image of whoever that was it cannot be said for certain that it was the accused.

It wasn't proven who the figure was, but as you say the timings fit, and along with the additional information the jury have on locations and time taken etc it all points to the accused. Taken with everything else it adds to the case against him.

 

[Pooksthebear]

Was it proven who the 'shadowy' figure is ? The fact the person on CCTV is described as shadowy in the first place is enough to make it inconclusive. It may well have been the accused. Equally it could have been someone else. The timings fit but without a clear CCTV image of whoever that was it cannot be said for certain that it was the accused.

No I don’t think it was but how likely is it that there was another individual skulking about at that time, on that day, in that place caught on two cctv cameras and with reports that it looked like they were carrying someone.. highly unlikely I would say.