UK - Alesha MacPhail, 6, raped & murdered, Ardbeg, Isle of Bute, Scotland, 2 Jul 2018 -teen arrested

[Taskforce88]

Remember in Scotland we have the third option of not proven.

It means that although the jury suspect that the accused is guilty, not enough solid evidence has been presented to find them guilty beyond doubt.

 

[Tortoise]

Please do not discuss or repeat the rumours. When this happens the mods have to close the thread for 'cleaning' (removal of posts) and then no one can post while the thread is shut.

 

[Ruthbullock]

For us looking in it appears clear cut.

Let's play devils advocate.

For a jury there is some circumstantial evidence. Is there the smoking gun yet? Is the CCTV clear enough to identify him? He's a cool customer, explained everything against him. Even before his arrest he was playing innocent with his messages and talk with people.

IMO it's looking like a guilty verdict at the moment.

I’m waiting to see something concrete, looking at it now, I struggle to see anything and the things that could incriminate are washy evidence- a hoody that was found on the beach, but then put in a police skip (so not recorded), a knife that could have been washed up, but the mum doesn’t know if any are missing and if there are it’s two knives missing (according to police). The banter I think is irrelevant between friends as I have heard others comment similar after watching documentaries and being drunk, and it was 4 plus years ago, and could theoretically implicate everyone else. Don’t get me wrong, he could well be guilty- but I want something that really puts him there, or gives him a reason- and I don’t think a random child who visits occasionally would necessarily be an easy victim of choice if he was that way inclined.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

I’m waiting to see something concrete, looking at it now, I struggle to see anything and the things that could incriminate are washy evidence- a hoody that was found on the beach, but then put in a police skip (so not recorded), a knife that could have been washed up, but the mum doesn’t know if any are missing and if there are it’s two knives missing (according to police). The banter I think is irrelevant between friends as I have heard others comment similar after watching documentaries and being drunk, and it was 4 plus years ago, and could theoretically implicate everyone else. Don’t get me wrong, he could well be guilty- but I want something that really puts him there, or gives him a reason- and I don’t think a random child who visits occasionally would necessarily be an easy victim of choice if he was that way inclined.

What's your thoughts on the cctv?

 

[Taskforce88]

Could the CCTV be inadmissible due to the fact that the permission for its use wasn't there at that time?

 

[HongKongPhooey]

I’m waiting to see something concrete, looking at it now, I struggle to see anything and the things that could incriminate are washy evidence- a hoody that was found on the beach, but then put in a police skip (so not recorded), a knife that could have been washed up, but the mum doesn’t know if any are missing and if there are it’s two knives missing (according to police). The banter I think is irrelevant between friends as I have heard others comment similar after watching documentaries and being drunk, and it was 4 plus years ago, and could theoretically implicate everyone else. Don’t get me wrong, he could well be guilty- but I want something that really puts him there, or gives him a reason- and I don’t think a random child who visits occasionally would necessarily be an easy victim of choice if he was that way inclined.

Dont mean to sound abrupt, apologies - tired brain tonight!

 

[Tortoise]

Could the CCTV be inadmissible due to the fact that the permission for its use wasn't there at that time?

I doubt it. It's been admitted already? And I believe permission was retrospectively granted.

 

[wtiger]

The one thing for which his account does not have an explanation is the presence of his dna on the victim (unless he is putting that down to the condom too) ...so if and when that evidence is introduced , that would be very difficult to explain away....conversely if his dna is not present then that would put a different spin on things.
But personally i dont think the case would have got here without the dna being there.

With regard to the family of the victim, ok its pretty clear that father is not one of lifes high achievers (also a drug dealer) and they probably wont win any parent of the year awards but we must take the picture as it was....that little girl should in theory have been in a safe place...in the flat with father and grandparents - hard to see what more they could have done?
The only blame here lies at the feet of whoever has done this,and thus far i have no reason to believe that the accused is not that person.

Perhaps if there is a lesson for the father in this case, it is that setting up as a drug dealer will inevitably attract some of lifes less desirable to your door..and as a father that may not be in the best interests of your family.....,..
But i have not walked a yard in his shoes and i suspect that like so many others, he was just doing what he could to get through his weeks.

I believe that he did not have full custody of his daughter and that in itself is a soul destroying situation....i certainly would not judge anyone too harshly given the absolute heartbreak that this man must be enduring.
For whatever his sins, he quite clearly loved that little girl and is going through a living hell right now

 

[Legally Bland]

I’m waiting to see something concrete, looking at it now, I struggle to see anything and the things that could incriminate are washy evidence- a hoody that was found on the beach, but then put in a police skip (so not recorded), a knife that could have been washed up, but the mum doesn’t know if any are missing and if there are it’s two knives missing (according to police). The banter I think is irrelevant between friends as I have heard others comment similar after watching documentaries and being drunk, and it was 4 plus years ago, and could theoretically implicate everyone else. Don’t get me wrong, he could well be guilty- but I want something that really puts him there, or gives him a reason- and I don’t think a random child who visits occasionally would necessarily be an easy victim of choice if he was that way inclined.

He felt the need to explain away DNA evidence. I fully expect to hear about that next week.

We aren't the jury and we can freely post opinions on the evidence that has been reported in MSM so far.

And we can also change our minds if we see fit.

 

[Edinlass]

Remember in Scotland we have the third option of not proven.

It means that although the jury suspect that the accused is guilty, not enough solid evidence has been presented to find them guilty beyond doubt.

He’s not getting a not proven, thrown out, not guilty outcome...none.

I’m waiting to see something concrete, looking at it now, I struggle to see anything and the things that could incriminate are washy evidence- a hoody that was found on the beach, but then put in a police skip (so not recorded), a knife that could have been washed up, but the mum doesn’t know if any are missing and if there are it’s two knives missing (according to police). The banter I think is irrelevant between friends as I have heard others comment similar after watching documentaries and being drunk, and it was 4 plus years ago, and could theoretically implicate everyone else. Don’t get me wrong, he could well be guilty- but I want something that really puts him there, or gives him a reason- and I don’t think a random child who visits occasionally would necessarily be an easy victim of choice if he was that way inclined.

There is evidence tho, there’s 2 separate CCTV footage of him carrying a child. CCTV footage of him acting suspicious at his home. Admitting guilt to friends via snapchat. Although I do agree with you about the banter between friends it wasn’t 4+ years ago, it was when they were around 14 years old (2 years ago). That’s irrelevant though except for him saying he may murder as it would apparently give him life skills...baffled.

I genuinely feel concrete DNA evidence will come to the forefront when the forensics are on the stand next week. All my opinion only.

 

[Ruthbullock]

What's your thoughts on the cctv?

I obviously haven’t seen it- but no where yet does it identify him, just a figure. Maybe the figure is clear- but the tweets haven’t said that.

 

[Gardenista]

What is the burden of proof in Scotland? Is it beyond all doubt or, is it like the US, and beyond a reasonable doubt?

 

[Taskforce88]

Beyond reasonable doubt

 

[Alyce]

I’m waiting to see something concrete, looking at it now, I struggle to see anything and the things that could incriminate are washy evidence- a hoody that was found on the beach, but then put in a police skip (so not recorded), a knife that could have been washed up, but the mum doesn’t know if any are missing and if there are it’s two knives missing (according to police). The banter I think is irrelevant between friends as I have heard others comment similar after watching documentaries and being drunk, and it was 4 plus years ago, and could theoretically implicate everyone else. Don’t get me wrong, he could well be guilty- but I want something that really puts him there, or gives him a reason- and I don’t think a random child who visits occasionally would necessarily be an easy victim of choice if he was that way inclined.

Yes, there are things that are not strong evidence - the hoody might get discounted if defence could prove too much contamination, the knife I dont think was used at all, so may not have anything incriminating on it.
The banter did sound like children getting more outrageous with each other and the girl did say he was not the only one making inappropriate remarks.
The snapchat photo, sent hours before anyone knew officially that Alesha had been murdered - has a bit more weight for me, because of the caption found the guy who did it.....at that point what was it exactly ?
The CCTV shows a person carrying a child. We don't know if it is strongly evident that it is the accused - although this may have been made clear in court that it matched his build etc.
His behaviour on that night is open to question, he was certainly out of the house for long enough to have committed the crime and he has lied about meeting a dealer to get drugs.
DNA sample was taken from him on the Tuesday, by Wednesday he had been arrested and by Friday he was charged. So I do think it will be the DNA matches that prove beyond doubt that it was him.

 

[Edinlass]

Yes, there are things that are not strong evidence - the hoody might get discounted if defence could prove too much contamination, the knife I dont think was used at all, so may not have anything incriminating on it.
The banter did sound like children getting more outrageous with each other and the girl did say he was not the only one making inappropriate remarks.
The snapchat photo, sent hours before anyone knew officially that Alesha had been murdered - has a bit more weight for me, because of the caption found the guy who did it.....at that point what was it exactly ?
The CCTV shows a person carrying a child. We don't know if it is strongly evident that it is the accused - although this may have been made clear in court that it matched his build etc.
His behaviour on that night is open to question, he was certainly out of the house for long enough to have committed the crime and he has lied about meeting a dealer to get drugs.
DNA sample was taken from him on the Tuesday, by Wednesday he had been arrested and by Friday he was charged. So I do think it will be the DNA matches that prove beyond doubt that it was him.

Thanks Alyce. You wrote it better than I ever could.

 

[Fidobell]

No, whatever sentence he receives now will run concurrent so in 4 years when he turns 21 the SPS will decide what prison to send him to and the rest of his sentence will be carried out there. There is Edinburgh, Barlinnie, Shotts, Grampian (prev Peterhead), Glenochil and Addiewell to chose from. Barlinnie or Shotts would be the best place for him to be terrorised daily..

If found d guilty He will get sent to one of the ' softer ' prisons 1st , then hopefully BarL or Shotts when 21. Shotts has a newly built wing especially opened to accommodate and manage the very 'worst' prisoners.

 

[mrazda71]

Only read this post since the trial started. Only interest is a friend of mine lives close by and I saw it on her social media and her daughter was an ex pupil. All I can say is glad you aren’t my jury- the posts on this forum have definitely all swayed one way. Until all evidence is heard, I rarely form a strong opinion. In this case, I am particularly dubious about the whole family- for lots of reasons that have been said in the media and in the trial. I am curious to see how this pans out- motive is not strong at this point.

Welcome to the thread

Some, in fact many of us have been here since Day 1 and have read all there is so feel more invested than you might be able to appreciate.

If you're not AT ALL swayed by any evidence heard thus far then I certainly wouldn't want you on the jury if it were my childs abducter, rapist and murderer on trial ... what do you require? A signed confession?

As for the whole family being 'dubious' ... I'll remind you that Websleuth is victim friendly and victim family friendly and it is not Aleshas family on trial.

 

[Truthseeker777]

Yes, there are things that are not strong evidence - the hoody might get discounted if defence could prove too much contamination, the knife I dont think was used at all, so may not have anything incriminating on it.
The banter did sound like children getting more outrageous with each other and the girl did say he was not the only one making inappropriate remarks.
The snapchat photo, sent hours before anyone knew officially that Alesha had been murdered - has a bit more weight for me, because of the caption found the guy who did it.....at that point what was it exactly ?
The CCTV shows a person carrying a child. We don't know if it is strongly evident that it is the accused - although this may have been made clear in court that it matched his build etc.
His behaviour on that night is open to question, he was certainly out of the house for long enough to have committed the crime and he has lied about meeting a dealer to get drugs.
DNA sample was taken from him on the Tuesday, by Wednesday he had been arrested and by Friday he was charged. So I do think it will be the DNA matches that prove beyond doubt that it was him.

The defense is already anticipating the evidence of his dna being found on the victim.

The question for the jury will be how did it get there? Did the accused actually commit this unspeakably evil crime or was his semen planted on the victim by TLM?

 

[Taskforce88]

The defense is already anticipating the evidence of his dna being found on the victim.

The question for the jury will be how did it get there? Did the accused actually commit this unspeakably evil crime or was his semen planted on the victim by TLM?

He already claimed his semen was planted. The defence might claim additional DNA came via the hoodie he allegedly gave?

Difficult to fool forensics.

 

[Alyce]

The defense is already anticipating the evidence of his dna being found on the victim.

The question for the jury will be how did it get there? Did the accused actually commit this unspeakably evil crime or was his semen planted on the victim by TLM?

In which case that cctv evidence would be crucial to be able to prove that it was the accused, or at least a male, carrying Alesha, and not TM.