UK UK - Andrew Gosden, 14, Doncaster, South Yorks, 14 Sep 2007 #2

[insertusername]

This case fascinates me because of the high level institutional and investigative view rather than on the ground events.

1. Sept 14, 2007: Andrew goes missing.
2. Sept 17, 2007: South Yorkshire Police (SYP) confirm the one-way ticket purchase.
3. BTP claim: British Transport Police (BTP) claim Andrew is not on any CCTV.
4. Delay: After 27 days, South Yorkshire Police (SYP) detectives review the same footage at King’s Cross and find Andrew in minutes.
5. Evidence Loss: By this point, all peripheral CCTV (buses, shops, street cams) had been overwritten.
6. Dec 8, 2021: Two men arrested in London; digital devices seized.
7. Jan 11, 2022: Public told that "numerous devices" were seized for analysis in the Gosden case.
8. July 26, 2023: South Yorkshire Police (SYP) claim they accidently deleted over 96,000 pieces of evidence.
9. Sept 20, 2023: The legal basis (under PACE Section 22 and the Data Protection Act) to hold the suspects' devices/data expires.
10. Sept 20, 2023: On the same day, the two suspects are officially exonerated and eliminated from the inquiry.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

@insertusername
Welcome to Websleuths.

I would like to hear more.

8. July 26, 2023: South Yorkshire Police (SYP) claim they accidently deleted over 96,000 pieces of evidence.
9. Sept 20, 2023: The legal basis (under PACE Section 22 and the Data Protection Act) to hold the suspects' devices/data expires.

Do you have a source for #8 and 9 on your list? Because this is one of my very top cases (that I hope to see solved) and don't think I've seen these claims before...

 

[Aluev]

8. July 26, 2023: South Yorkshire Police (SYP) claim they accidently deleted over 96,000 pieces of evidence.

I've never heard of this before! I can't think of how it is related, though. It seems that the lost evidence is worn camera footage by policemen when engaging with the public.

Police reveal full extent of video evidence loss​

"SOUTH Yorkshire Police has been reprimanded by the Information Commissioner’s Office after it was found the force deleted more than 96,000 pieces of body-worn video evidence. Body-worn video (BWV) footage is often recorded when officers engage with members of the public or when they are responding to an incident. South Yorkshire Police say they use it for scrutiny and accountability purposes, and it is sometimes used as evidence in court."

 

[insertusername]

@ChatteringBirds @Aluev Thank you, it is a very interesting community. The "expiry" on September 20, 2023, is the application of PACE Section 22 and the Data Protection Act 2018 to the specific facts of this case. There is no single "certificate of expiry," but rather a mandatory legal conclusion:

The Legal Logic: Under PACE Section 22, police can only retain seized data "for as long as is necessary." Once the digital forensic report was finalized (which occurred in September 2023) and showed no evidence of a crime, the "necessity" to hold the devices ceased to exist as a matter of law.

Source: The formal conclusion of the investigation into these individuals was reported by the official Andrew Gosden search website (run by the family) and via SYP’s Press Office statements on September 20, 2023.

The convergence of the data loss (July) and the exoneration (September) led to significant public scrutiny.

Because the forensic evidence was "cleared" and the suspects were eliminated at the same time the force was admitting to a massive data deletion, it raised questions about whether the "elimination" was due to a lack of evidence or a loss of evidence.

However, SYP maintained that the forensic examination of the suspects' devices had been completed and showed no link to Andrew Gosden before any data was disposed of.

Even if the 96,174 deleted files were technically categorised as "Body-Worn Video" (BWV), they lived on the same digital infrastructure as the forensic data from the suspects' devices and it is purely based on their own internal "explanations".

I note that SYP have now shifted to a more aggressive public stance, labelling anyone who criticizes them as disseminating "disinformation". This is quite interesting given their overall performance thus far and that they "may" have deleted all evidence relating to the case.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

However, SYP maintained that the forensic examination of the suspects' devices had been completed and showed no link to Andrew Gosden before any data was disposed of.

I hope this is true.

Do you have an opinion regarding why they went public with the arrests, saying publicly that they were allegedly or possibly linked to Andrew's case, (instead of just investigating quietly whether there was evidence or a link?)

 

[insertusername]

Likely just a PR win for the 15th Anniversary to show they are doing something of consequence. There has been quite a lot of public pressure. It's interesting to me how the investigation in 2007 and the arrests in 2021-23 follow a similar pattern involving time limits and mass deletion of evidence.

 

[VelvetDiamante]

The arrests were announced on National Trafficking Awareness Day. Not sure if that had any significance.

 

[Mrs Marple]

Perhaps Andrew did not purchase a ticket because he did not intend to return.

Perhaps if there was no opportunity for him to be groomed, perhaps he wasn't.

Maybe he went to London to have a nice day then take his own life.

It is odd why SYP didn't take it more seriously in the beginning. They normally don't if they have reason to believe a child has left of their own according and will return.

The phone business is interesting. Why buy he two phones he didn't use or take care of. Then offer to buy a third. It makes no sense. Andrew wasnt keen on talking on the phone, as that and texting was all they were used for then l think?

Maybe his family were too much for him and dhe didnt want them to be able to contact him at any time.

 

[Cedars]

The phone business is interesting. Why buy he two phones he didn't use or take care of. Then offer to buy a third. It makes no sense. Andrew wasnt keen on talking on the phone, as that and texting was all they were used for then l think?

I don't believe he bought the phones himself, he would only have been around 12 years old. His parents lilkely bought them for him, so he could contact them if needed. A safety thing. It was flip phones, then.

YTer Pat Brown has a recent analysis that is suggestive of why he went to London...a new playstation.

 

[Mrs Marple]

I don't believe he bought the phones himself, he would only have been around 12 years old. His parents lilkely bought them for him, so he could contact them if needed. A safety thing. It was flip phones, then.

YTer Pat Brown has a recent analysis that is suggestive of why he went to London...a new playstation.

Agreed. But still why keep giving him phones he wasnt going to use?

Sorry PBs opinions don't hold much weight for me. She's very convincing but the debacle over the McCanns put me off her permanently.

 

[Cedars]

Agreed. But still why keep giving him phones he wasnt going to use?

They gave him a 2nd one, then stopped after 2... Parents have this bizarre tendency to give things to their children...

 

[Mrs Marple]

They gave him a 2nd one, then stopped after 2... Parents have this bizarre tendency to give things to their children...

I disagree. Phones are not cheap. If he didnt use the first one he was unlikely to use the third. They coild buy those, but only recently got the Internet, which many households would have had for years in 2007.

However what seems off to one person is insignificant to someone else.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

Why buy he two phones he didn't use or take care of. Then offer to buy a third

I think it was over a few years that two phones were lost, which I don't think shows abnormal carelessness for his age.

When he was 14, maybe it was a casual question from his parents what he'd like for a gift, how about a new phone? And he preferred something else anyway.

Is it relevant, other than to say he didn't have a known phone to be talking to anyone when he went missing? And wasn't so social that he really needed a phone? Honestly asking. Is it possibly even a clue, and how?

 

[Mrs Marple]

I think it was over a few years that two phones were lost, which I don't think shows abnormal carelessness for his age.

When he was 14, maybe it was a casual question from his parents what he'd like for a gift, how about a new phone? And he preferred something else anyway.

Is it relevant, other than to say he didn't have a known phone to be talking to anyone when he went missing? And wasn't so social that he really needed a phone? Honestly asking. Is it possibly even a clue, and how?

BIB it's a good point...not a clue, but it tells us about Andrew's character.

• He wasn't social (supports what dad says)
• He did not feel the need to have a device he could contact his parents if needed and vice versa - didn't want to feel accessible, perhaps?
• He was possibly careless with possessions
• He didn't attach status to things like that
• He wasnt into tech for the sake of it - it needed to have a purpose he could get on board with

What does it tell us about the child parental relationship?

If the phones were lost, were there any consequences? Or did Andrew think he could act with impunity...that could indicate his state of mind the day he went missing.

 

[Inspector Evans]

I don't believe he bought the phones himself, he would only have been around 12 years old. His parents lilkely bought them for him, so he could contact them if needed. A safety thing. It was flip phones, then.

YTer Pat Brown has a recent analysis that is suggestive of why he went to London...a new playstation.

Interesting. Will have a watch later of that to hear more of his theory as don't think it is that outlandish based on his general interests.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

If the phones were lost, were there any consequences? Or did Andrew think he could act with impunity

I lost a phone when I was in my 20's so can't fault a young teenager. The consequence is you don't have a phone anymore and lost all of the data on it, at least for a while.

His parents don't seem "strict," but I don't think they needed to be. Andrew and his sister were responsible teenagers. His dad portrays him as a great kid, intelligent, thoughtful, kind. It was really out of character for him to ditch school that day. But I think he just needed a day off for himself. JMO.

 

[avob00]

I’m going to watch Pat Brown's video now. I think it is possible that he went to London for the PSP. Usually the simplest explanations are the correct ones. There is no evidence of any communication with anyone and apart from the long walk from school to home the Tuesday before his disappearance, there’s nothing out of character from him. He helped paint the gate of his house with Kevin the weekend before his disappearance.

But why did he decide to go behind his parents back to do this? Why didn't he just tell them he wanted to go to London at the weekend to get the PSP? His father was begging him to go to London over the summer and enjoy his time there and he declined. I don’t think they would’ve had a problem with him going to get it. He could have gone at the weekend and got it and his parents seems very grand about him getting what he wanted. He already had the Xbox, had a load of video games, and his existing PSP. By all accounts, Kevin provided him with anything he expressed interest in - material or experience-wise.

I don't understand why he decided not to tell anybody and go to London and do that. Was it a robbery that happened after he made a purchase? If so, how did nobody see him being robbed and hurt in central London. He was a very intelligent boy with maturity beyond his years, and I don’t see him just getting into a stranger’s car.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

I’m going to watch Pat Brown's video now. I think it is possible that he went to London for the PSP. ...

I don't understand why he decided not to tell anybody and go to London and do that. Was it a robbery that happened after he made a purchase? If so, how did nobody see him being robbed and hurt in central London. He was a very intelligent boy with maturity beyond his years, and I don’t see him just getting into a stranger’s car.

Let me know if you think the video provides anything new worth watching. I agree he would have needed to be lured out of a public area, but maybe that's not as difficult as you'd think. Someone could have asked for help with something, or a car could have looked like a taxi -- or.maybe even been one. IMO.

 

[TheRockingRev]

I’m going to watch Pat Brown's video now. I think it is possible that he went to London for the PSP. Usually the simplest explanations are the correct ones. There is no evidence of any communication with anyone and apart from the long walk from school to home the Tuesday before his disappearance, there’s nothing out of character from him. He helped paint the gate of his house with Kevin the weekend before his disappearance.

But why did he decide to go behind his parents back to do this? Why didn't he just tell them he wanted to go to London at the weekend to get the PSP? His father was begging him to go to London over the summer and enjoy his time there and he declined. I don’t think they would’ve had a problem with him going to get it. He could have gone at the weekend and got it and his parents seems very grand about him getting what he wanted. He already had the Xbox, had a load of video games, and his existing PSP. By all accounts, Kevin provided him with anything he expressed interest in - material or experience-wise.

I don't understand why he decided not to tell anybody and go to London and do that. Was it a robbery that happened after he made a purchase? If so, how did nobody see him being robbed and hurt in central London. He was a very intelligent boy with maturity beyond his years, and I don’t see him just getting into a stranger’s car.

Out of interest how much was the PSP?

 

[davidt]

Out of interest how much was the PSP?

Looks like it was around £130 so he would have enough money with him depending on what else he may have spent money on.