UK UK - Andrew Gosden, 14, Doncaster, South Yorks, 14 Sep 2007 #2

[wtiger]

The actual evidence all points to Warboys having a predilection for attacking young adult women - if this is his target demographic then the chances of him also attacking an adolescent boy would be very very low indeed.

imho everyone who ever shared a cell with a "celebrity" inmate has a sensational story to tell and almost none of those stories are based in any sort of reality

 

[Inspector Evans]

The actual evidence all points to Warboys having a predilection for attacking young adult women - if this is his target demographic then the chances of him also attacking an adolescent boy would be very very low indeed.

imho everyone who ever shared a cell with a "celebrity" inmate has a sensational story to tell and almost none of those stories are based in any sort of reality

Yeah he's revelling in the notoriety of his crimes and sees a high profile missing person and wants to link himself to that. Seen that in many other cases although we've also seen others like John Cannan vehemently deny having anything to do with the Suzy Lamplugh disappearance despite him clearly getting a kick from all his crimes.

From reading the excerpt it seems whoever he told had no idea about Andrew Gosden's disappearance and basically describes what Andrew looked like and near enough his age so being told those specifics is interesting.

As I said previously when I was reading the article the first thought in my head was that is Andrew Gosden being described. <modsnip - reddit is not an approved source>

I will read the chapter in the book shortly and see if the author expands more on the claim and perhaps even mentions Andrew or any other young person still missing.

 

[FaerieDust]

I think I may have commented this before, but I wonder if Andrew was involved with PSP modding and//or pirating community online in forums. I know someone the same age who used to do this as a teenager (same age as Andrew) because they couldn't afford new games as they came out. Teenage boys and their consoles!

Edit: to clarify, you need a modified chip to do override the PSP like this, and it is probably illegal. So I can imagine someone travelling to buy a chip like this (although there may have been people selling them online as well).

 

[shindigdig]

DISCLAIMER

Before you read this I am not accusing the Quakers movement of being involved in any type of sexual abuse, or Andrew's disappearance in general. Do not send hate anywhere near the Quakers. This is merely adding to the public conversation due to me looking at a map of the area around Andrew's house at the time. We know that Andrew deviated from his regular routine that day and perhaps this could be a link to finding that force, or motivation, or whatever it was that made him do something different that day and go to London.

Introduction

Kevin Gosden has said publicly that the family wondered if Andrew had struggled with his sexuality. We couple this with the fact that its widely reported that Andrew had not been to Church for 18 months prior to his disappearance, and that Andrew had been reading the works of Nietzsche. If we take these reports from the family on face value, from afar the picture might look like one of a teenager who had become disillusioned with the Church, and the life he felt the Church was allowing him.

Curiously, the year prior in 2006 when Andrew visited Lancaster University, it is possible that Andrew was introduced to Quakerism. Lancaster holds great significance to the Quaker faith as the founder was tried at Lancaster castle in the 1600s. The first Chancellor of the University was a Quaker. The University serves as the weekly location for the Bailrigg meeting. The University maintains having Quaker Chaplaincy to this day.

Proximity to Andrew

Where this is relevant is that while reviewing the route from Andrew's school to his house I saw that there was a Quakers meeting house. From Littlemoor Ln, the last place Andrew was seen in Doncaster, the meeting house is just over 10-minutes walk in Oxford Pl.

Map of Andrew's street to Meeting House

Where this becomes more curious is that when we add Andrew's High School and examine the route between his house. The meeting house is conveniently located on the route and is somewhere he could have visited on the way home from school without detection. This is is significant as its a contentious issue if Andrew had walked that route for any purpose previously.

Map between Andrew's home and school

The meeting house is one of the oldest in England. The Balby meeting (Doncaster congregation) is credited as having some of the earliest writings that inform that movement as a whole, having a deep rooted history in the area. There is just under 20,000 registered Quakers (291 in Balby) in the UK.

What are Quakers?

Quakers are a Christian adjacent group that originated in the UK in the 17th Century. They refer to each other as "friends" and their congregations as "meetings", and take a social justice approach to faith. Quakers are significantly more progressive that traditional Christianity, but this experience can vary community-to-community and some pockets may still rely on traditional Christian beliefs. Quakers happen to be more versed on contemporary intellectual endeavours, and issues.

Generally, Quakers have a large focus on education and progression. Quakers pride themselves on their unique take on spirituality favouring individuals of high integrity and values as opposed to rituals and sacraments. This more progressive take of Christian spirituality naturally means a more welcoming environment for the LGBT and abuse survivors.

Relevance to Andrew

• Education is a fundamental part of Quakers values - Andrew's academic excellence, and commitment to it is well documented by his family
• Quakers are LGBT friendly - Andrew may have attached to this acceptance as he possibly was struggling with his sexuality at the time
• Christian adjacent beliefs may have made Andrew more comfortable in approaching a "meeting of friends"
• Social Justice issues that are important to the Quakers may have appeared as more intellectually stimulating to Andrew and attracted him
• Lancaster University has significant historical ties to Quakerism and may have been Andrews introduction

If anyone more educated on Quakerism is able to add any more commentary I would be very interested to learn! This just a link I've made. It most likely is nothing, but adding to the public discussion with sourced material is the only way anything is ever going to move forward for Andrew. I just found this a very curious link.

 

[shindigdig]

I am just bringing awareness to a post by u/kingjoffreysmum. They have shared a story and some esoteric knowledge about a loophole in sex offender registering in the UK. The original post is linked here, and reads as follows:

"I think this area is plausible; particularly the canal area. I once had a discussion with someone who informed me that a lot of sex offenders live on the canals because you can disappear quite easily; you might have to sign the register in one borough on day 1, then move your barge over the other side of the canal wall for the other 29 days. It also means that pending charges take a while to catch up; if you’re straddling multiple boroughs, which local authority takes it on? A lot of offenders slip through the cracks.

I walked the London canals a few years back as part of a hobby project thing with a mate and honestly… some of it (despite being in technically ‘busy’ areas, like massive flyovers running over the top of these canal ways) feels really quite oppressive and eerie. Lots of overgrowing vegetation hanging over the canal etc. I was glad to be with someone, as I think a person alone could get into trouble there and not be heard, even in broad daylight. Especially in broad daylight on a weekday, actually.".

When I saw this post I did some sleuthing on Google to see if this was genuinely happening. I was very surprised to see that this is a well known issue with news articles covering stories, like this one, for the last 20-years.

Even the hobbyist community for yachting and narrowboats seem to have information and knowledge that this has been occurring for several decades. There is suggestion that the police have been aware of this for some time.

Canal based paedophile ring exposed

"Though the investigating detective, John Wedger, was threatened by his superiors that he would be 'thrown to the wolves' if he spoke out, he has done so, with the Independent Police Complaints Commission now investigating a string of cover-up allegations...It has been discovered that scores of sex offenders are living on narrowboats, with DC Wedger telling the inquiry: "I found a lot of paedophiles were going off the radar. There was a loophole in the law that allowed them to live on canal boats without being on the electoral register."...When he identified the sex offenders he tells that he was taken off the case.".

Looking into some hobbyist forums there is several discussions about prominent figures in the canal boating community being aware of known pedophiles and sex offenders being employed in the boating industry surrounding narrowboats. In no way am I implying any of the people or businesses are explicitly linked to AG's disappearance I am merely pointing out that figures with perceived questionable conduct were known to frequent around canals and the narrowboat community.

Richard Saillet/Mr. canalshop jailed for eight years for violent sexual assault.

"He had three online moorings adjacent to the shop in a row nose to tail with no other boats or people within shouting distance after shop hours, with me in the middle. He was moored on the one side of me, and for a while (although not at the time that I left-he had been booted out for being too gobby about the ... got up to) moored on the other side was a convicted sex offender. He also had a friendship/business dealings with a man that I in no way ironically refer to as the devil, who had previously physically threatened me over (no seriously) my asking him to return a plate he had borrowed.

When I was eventually told that the guy behind me is a convicted sex offender who has to sign in but please don't tell anyone, I confronted ... about mooring me (a single woman) next to him, knowing that the only way off my boat was past his, and that often he and I were the only ones there."

... asked me why I was worried about being moored next a paedophile given that I was hardly in his target demographic (I did not know until that point that the guy had been convicted of child sex offences) and finished off with something along the lines of "and look at you, you should be so lucky anyway."

While the publication "The Sun" might have a reputation for being a rag and the paper being worth more than the words printed on it, they have reported in 2016 that police were battling with keeping up with sex offenders living on barges on the UK canal system. The below seems quite sensationalised and should be taken with enough salt to cause high blood pressure. Though, lets take it in the context of its knowledge about the issue.

Did cops cover up investigation into child sex offenders living on barges to avoid detection?

"Detective Constable John Wedger claims his enquiry into offenders living on barges was pulled, vice squad officers were ordered not to arrest underage prostitutes and he says bosses made threats over his report on a London child prostitute ring involving someone connected to the BBC music department... He said: “It was like someone had set a pit bull on me. He told me he was taking me off and shutting it down... A Met spokesman said the force was aware of “various allegations” made by a detective constable which were being assessed by its Professional Standards Directorate..."

It would even appear that previously convicted sex offenders were reoffending while seeking refuge on barges and narrowboats evading the registration system.

Hunt for child sex offender with links to UK canal system - YBW

"Crabb, who is 53, is wanted on a recall to prison. He was last seen in Uxbridge, Middlesex... He is alleged to have breached these conditions by failing to notify the police of a change of address...He has also in the past sought refuge on barges, and has links to the British canal system.".

Another example of a known child sex offender using a houseboat to evade the register and its effects in a similar fashion.

Blackpool paedophile dodged police on £60k houseboat trip

"A court heard how 66-year-old Andrew Yeoman served a five-year jail term in France for sex offences against youngsters in what was then his home near Angouleme, in the south of France.

On release he was deported to the UK and lived on Blackpool Prom where he was immediately placed on the Sex Offender’s Register.

Yeoman, whose £60,000 narrowboat is currently moored in Salthouse Dock, Liverpool, near to the Merseyside Police headquarters, admitted breaching the terms of his Sex Offenders’ order by not notifying police about his whereabouts.

Pam Smith, prosecuting, said: “Over a long period of time he prevented the police managing him as a sex offender.”

“For three years he has been travelling the canals of the UK until someone alerted police to him.”.

It looks like this is not something that is isolated to London. It appears to be a common loophole in the whole of the UK and has been exploited quite extensively. This article from 2003 explores the issue in the context of Northwich.

No place to hide for canal barge sex beasts

"A loophole in the present law means sex offenders, including paedophiles, who have no fixed abode do not have to give their addresses to police to sign the register because in effect, they do not have an address...As the law currently stands, sex offenders have 48 hours in which to register with police when they move into new area but those living on barges and boats can simply move on without having to inform the authorities...In effect, they have become invisible to police, who have had great difficulty in keeping tabs on their movements.".

Within this same article there is mention of the "Sexual Offenders Act 1997", which "...the Home Office said: Clause 85 of the sexual offences law was put before Parliament in February of this year.". I did some research into this legislation and found what looks like an academic paper talking about the changes to the legislation in question that came sometime in or after 2003 (links to a .PDF). Among the subheading "Key Changes" it does not appear to be any change or provision that aims to deal with transient, homeless or individuals living on a narrowboat or barge. Though there seems to be some consideration with these following changes.

https://www.unafei.or.jp/publications/pdf/RS_No72/No72_11VE_Middleton3.pdf

"Offenders will have to notify any address in the UK at which they reside for seven days or more, whether that is seven days consecutive or seven days within any 12 month period (the current period is 14 days)."

"All offenders will have to re-confirm their notified details annually (“periodic notification”)."

"All notifications will have to be made in person and the police may take fingerprints and photographs at initial notification, whenever an offender notifies any changes to his details and at periodic notification."

Most recently, between October 2018 and April 2019 there appears to be a long chain of what appears to be something akin to a freedom of information request between the Independent Police Support Group and the Metropolitan Police Service regarding the death of a girl and the investigating of sex offenders using canals. This shows to me that this issue has persisted up until at least 2019 with there not being much further news after that about the issue of sex offenders using canals to evade police monitoring.

Request for information concerning disclosures by police whistle-blower re child sexual abuse - a Freedom of Information request to Metropolitan Police Service (MPS)

In conclusion, I believe this opens up the AG case as it provides a new avenue of exploring potential suspects. It is reasonable to assume that during the time of AGs disappearance that this loophole of sex offenders living on barges and narrowboats was well into practice. I would be fascinated to see what anyone else has to add or if we have any ways exploring this further.

Please let me know if I have included any incorrect information as I will edit it ASAP and provide updates. If anyone wants to add something to the conversation but does not want to post publicly please feel free to DM me for a chat.

 

[FaerieDust]

I don't really have any thoughts as to whether Worboys and/or the Quaker idea are good or not.

I took it upon myself to research some websites and forums related to PSP modding. Here's a BBC Article from February 2007 describing the first 'unlocking' of the PSPs firmware to allow the use of pirated games.

I found a blogpost also from February 2007 that details how to mod the PSP to use batteries instead of a charger, so maybe Andrew wasn't using his PSP charger.

A blog post on Andrew's dad's blog recently detailed how Andrew helped him make some shelves as a child, and was "He was around 10 I think and not at all bad with a chisel to cut slots for the small glass shelves and dovetail joints on the corners.". This boy was not a clumsy kid, with minimal research he could likely complete a PSP mod like the one detailed above, since it suggests using a household iron to solder if you don't own a soldering iron (although he could access a soldering iron in school in a Design & Technology or Physics class).

Also, to clarify, they only painted his bedroom to blue last year when they were doing renovations, not just after his disappearance like some have claimed recently. It's all in that blog post.

Here's an interview with a man who cracked and shared pirated PC games. They are overlooked, average individuals:

"Why would Pittman — husband, father and assistant scoutmaster for his local Boy Scout troop — risk so much for his illegal hobby?
“Because it made me feel important,” he says. “I wasn’t a jock or one of the cool kids, but suddenly, I was the go-to guy. I could do stuff the average Joe couldn’t.”

That feeling of notoriety is addictive, says Hollenshead. “They may be a completely anonymous person without any other claim to fame,” he says. “But within their community, they’re perceived with godlike status.”

Here are some archived links to interviews with PSP crackers/hackers. They mention being normal people with day jobs, partners, babies on the way, etc.

These are intelligent and skilled individuals in coding/programming. Andrew was very gifted in maths and science particularly, programming or coding is essentially more complicated algebra. I could definitely see a boy like that being interested in such things, and very good at it. A lot of programming can be done on a computer terminal, computer notepad or even pen and paper.

If Andrew did want to go off grid for whatever reason, and theoretically got very interested or good at programming and modding, it would be fairly straightforward to use connections via game pirating forums to access stolen credit card details to use for online purchases. For example the 18 year old arrested in this case from September 2007, many people involved in this ring were never located or identified. Much like the hackers these days, these are teenagers up to (destructive) computer mischief, which they cannot quite comprehend the real-world implications of.

The question is: would a normal boy like Andrew become involved in this? Or did he meet up with someone from a forum or online gaming, like poor Breck Bednar, who was killed by an older boy who he met on a gaming forum? Did he go to London because he thought he was buying a mod chip and harm befell him?

Edited to remove link to hacking forum because that's probably not allowed. And also formatting.
Edit 2: I'll keep looking at old forum posts to see if I can spot any threads or messages that seem relevent. Likely I won't, but I've personally become interested in OSINT recently so I'm happy to put my time to good use.

 

[Inspector Evans]

It's definitely a plausible theory IMO. Andrew was certainly 'flush' that day so he may have taken a cab with the money he had. A lot of people don't like the Tube, particularly on warm days, was Andrew one of them? Is that why he took the money to take cabs rather than the Underground (I know you may say why not the bus, but bus routes in, London are more complex than the tube) with no internet it would've been harder to to navigate the system.
It's been said that Andrew doesn't fit into Warboys regular M.O. - but sometimes I think too much is put in place about offenders only fitting in a certain box. If he was of that way inclined criminally, an easy target like Andrew may have been too much for him to pass up.

I think that's an excellent point RR. From previous trips to London with family did they go on the tube or not? And did Andrew enjoy it? I have a mate who when he goes to London would rather just walk everywhere or get a bus than go on the tube, it is not for everyone. This was also only two years after the 7/7 bombings so that would've caused additional anxiety.

From XC it is 20-30 minute walk to Piccadilly/Covent Garden/Oxford Circus so if he had hours to wait then perfectly leisurable to get to these locations given the speculated Pizza Express sighting.

I presume from him walking out he didn't get a travel card to go straight on the tube although of course it is worth remembering the entrance to XC underground is across the road from station foyer so guess that is uncertain with no more CCTV to go on.

Feels like with the money he took out he might've wanted to get in a taxi at some stage that day.

The book is now in WHSmiths in the paperback section. Had a flick through but there was nothing more on it from the newspaper extract. It was basically Worboys and the other criminal talking about their crimes so very possible Worboys exaggerated on hearing what the other had done but he clearly knew about this case from somewhere to mention it.

Be interested to see what other cases of boys 14/15 from the North going missing in London in late 2000s made TV appeals anyway just for context.

 

[FaerieDust]

I don't really have any thoughts as to whether Worboys and/or the Quaker idea are good or not.

I took it upon myself to research some websites and forums related to PSP modding. Here's a BBC Article from February 2007 describing the first 'unlocking' of the PSPs firmware to allow the use of pirated games.

I found a blogpost also from February 2007 that details how to mod the PSP to use batteries instead of a charger, so maybe Andrew wasn't using his PSP charger.

A blog post on Andrew's dad's blog recently detailed how Andrew helped him make some shelves as a child, and was "He was around 10 I think and not at all bad with a chisel to cut slots for the small glass shelves and dovetail joints on the corners.". This boy was not a clumsy kid, with minimal research he could likely complete a PSP mod like the one detailed above, since it suggests using a household iron to solder if you don't own a soldering iron (although he could access a soldering iron in school in a Design & Technology or Physics class).

Also, to clarify, they only painted his bedroom to blue last year when they were doing renovations, not just after his disappearance like some have claimed recently. It's all in that blog post.

Here's an interview with a man who cracked and shared pirated PC games. They are overlooked, average individuals:



Here are some archived links to interviews with PSP crackers/hackers. They mention being normal people with day jobs, partners, babies on the way, etc.

These are intelligent and skilled individuals in coding/programming. Andrew was very gifted in maths and science particularly, programming or coding is essentially more complicated algebra. I could definitely see a boy like that being interested in such things, and very good at it. A lot of programming can be done on a computer terminal, computer notepad or even pen and paper.

If Andrew did want to go off grid for whatever reason, and theoretically got very interested or good at programming and modding, it would be fairly straightforward to use connections via game pirating forums to access stolen credit card details to use for online purchases. For example the 18 year old arrested in this case from September 2007, many people involved in this ring were never located or identified. Much like the hackers these days, these are teenagers up to (destructive) computer mischief, which they cannot quite comprehend the real-world implications of.

The question is: would a normal boy like Andrew become involved in this? Or did he meet up with someone from a forum or online gaming, like poor Breck Bednar, who was killed by an older boy who he met on a gaming forum? Did he go to London because he thought he was buying a mod chip and harm befell him?

Edited to remove link to hacking forum because that's probably not allowed. And also formatting.
Edit 2: I'll keep looking at old forum posts to see if I can spot any threads or messages that seem relevent. Likely I won't, but I've personally become interested in OSINT recently so I'm happy to put my time to good use.

I can't edit, but wanted to clarify that perhaps the reason Andrew didn't take his PSP charger that day may have been because he had modified it to use batteries instead (as per the tutorial I linked here) that could be done with fairly cheap and mundane items.

 

[lebvidox]

Going over this case, the main ‘mystery’ here seems to come from the family telling the story over the years, to the press or podcasters, and downplaying what they don’t want to believe and hyping up whatever comforts them.

As in: If the online grooming theory is entertained (they don't want to think that's the case), they'll say the police found nothing in the Andrew's schools and public library computers > the police couldn’t have missed anything here. But if the eyewitness sightings that weren’t reported until weeks after the boy was confirmed to have gone ton London weren’t followed through > the police was incompetent and slow.

The portrait of Andrew’s personality is equally biased. The parents (mostly the father, who’s granting the interviews) paint him as a ‘deep thinker’, a ‘gifted student’ etc. The boy was perfect. They downplay any possible sign of behavioral changes: if he quit church and the boy scouts, that’s just because he wanted to pursue other interests.

What other interests? We don’t know, because the boy just stayed home playing videogames, locked away in his room or the cellar, and the parents had no idea what he was doing. The only certainty they have (now) was that Andrew wasn't interest in computers or the internet. Yes, this 14-year-old geeky kid in 2007, adopting style codes of the blooming emo subculture and an avid fan of metal bands, never connected to strangers online or downloaded a song.

That's absurd. The family’s insistence that they never had computers and/or internet connection in the house until a few weeks before he went missing is absurd. This was 2007. Andrew had an older sister. The family had owned multiple cellphones and bought an XBOX and a PSP for Andrew – they weren’t tech-adverse. If we take this as a fact, I’d be thinking of a sheltered upbringing that a kid Andrew’s age would be desperate to break free from.

The way I see it, this boy wasn’t happy and well-adjusted. That doesn't mean he was living on the brink; he was just going through the experience that many a teen in the mid-2000s went through. Previous acts of rebellion (like coming home late and saying he walked instead of taking the bus one week before he disappeared) went unnoticed by the family. That's fine - it wouldn't be a red flag for most parents.

But their denials of anything of sorts - as if Andrew's trip to London was the first time he ever lied to his parents - is not justifiable at this point. Their religious activities, their concerns about their son becoming more and more secluded and possibly struggling with his sexuality, the previous lies that might have gone unnoticed... Why not discuss it openly now?

 

[KathPlumber]

I think that's an excellent point RR. From previous trips to London with family did they go on the tube or not? And did Andrew enjoy it?

Just in the interest of quickly answering one aspect of this, I know that Andrew’s father has said that they were Tube users when they visited London. No idea if he enjoyed it


Correct me if I’m wrong, but the family’s belief is that Andrew might well have left the station because he was a bit muddled on the directions and various exits and lines available and then returned via another entrance to catch another train or something because he was accustomed to catching connections to elsewhere in London. I hope someone can confirm this is their belief cos it sounds odd to me now, since there would have been more CCTV in that case. Anyway I’m sure I read it somewhere.

I don’t personally agree that that’s what he did but the fact that Kevin stated it suggested that Tube use was fairly typical for them.

I think cabs and buses have possibilities as the next step for him but so too does walking to another nearby line or station. I also just wanted to point out the difference between taxis and minicabs. Before Uber, minicabs were a whole thing in UK. Like proto-Uber. So you had the iconic black London cabs, which were metered, like what the offender mentioned above was driving. These were expensive, but okay for short trips (plus cool-looking ride ). Then there were a whole lot of minicab companies that just had drivers in a private car, the cars weren’t always marked and just looked like normal cars . In theory you rang and booked them beforehand. They were better value if you had a bit further to go or lots of bags and it was usually an agreed upon price.

This is not a suggestion Andrew used one, but just reminding people that this was the landscape back then.

I also recall at the time CONSTANT warnings about unregistered minicab drivers who would hawk their services at transport hubs. Warnings were on billboards, radio, cinema ads was a big one. The marketing was aimed at women so I came to realise there was a big issue with sexual assault by unregistered minicab drivers who preyed on unaware travelers . Article here and here When you got off the train and approached bus or taxi rank you’d sometimes be approached by people offering their unlicensed minicab services b ut acting confident and legitimate (this is the same sort of scene many travelers will be familiar with in big cities worldwide).

Again, zero implication Andrew used a minicab, registered or not. A black cab would be more likely, if you had to nominate.
Again, just reminding people that this was the landscape back then as I think it helps provide a fuller picture.

 

[KathPlumber]

Going over this case, the main ‘mystery’ here seems to come from the family telling the story over the years, to the press or podcasters, and downplaying what they don’t want to believe and hyping up whatever comforts them.

As in: If the online grooming theory is entertained (they don't want to think that's the case), they'll say the police found nothing in the Andrew's schools and public library computers > the police couldn’t have missed anything here. But if the eyewitness sightings that weren’t reported until weeks after the boy was confirmed to have gone ton London weren’t followed through > the police was incompetent and slow.

The portrait of Andrew’s personality is equally biased. The parents (mostly the father, who’s granting the interviews) paint him as a ‘deep thinker’, a ‘gifted student’ etc. The boy was perfect. They downplay any possible sign of behavioral changes: if he quit church and the boy scouts, that’s just because he wanted to pursue other interests.

What other interests? We don’t know, because the boy just stayed home playing videogames, locked away in his room or the cellar, and the parents had no idea what he was doing. The only certainty they have (now) was that Andrew wasn't interest in computers or the internet. Yes, this 14-year-old geeky kid in 2007, adopting style codes of the blooming emo subculture and an avid fan of metal bands, never connected to strangers online or downloaded a song.

That's absurd. The family’s insistence that they never had computers and/or internet connection in the house until a few weeks before he went missing is absurd. This was 2007. Andrew had an older sister. The family had owned multiple cellphones and bought an XBOX and a PSP for Andrew – they weren’t tech-adverse. If we take this as a fact, I’d be thinking of a sheltered upbringing that a kid Andrew’s age would be desperate to break free from.

The way I see it, this boy wasn’t happy and well-adjusted. That doesn't mean he was living on the brink; he was just going through the experience that many a teen in the mid-2000s went through. Previous acts of rebellion (like coming home late and saying he walked instead of taking the bus one week before he disappeared) went unnoticed by the family. That's fine - it wouldn't be a red flag for most parents.

But their denials of anything of sorts - as if Andrew's trip to London was the first time he ever lied to his parents - is not justifiable at this point. Their religious activities, their concerns about their son becoming more and more secluded and possibly struggling with his sexuality, the previous lies that might have gone unnoticed... Why not discuss it openly now?

I mean everyone grieves and copes differently and I’ve always seen it as that. In the absence of any answers, this is how they discuss him and express their thoughts and theories. In my experience of following missing persons cases for many years, it’s pretty common that surviving family have a strong attachment to a particular theory or version of the story.

That said, I 100% agree with you that there’s no logic to it and I’ve thought exactly these things about technology access etc etc and I’ve posted about that here. I’m absolutely behind the internet featuring in this disappearance in some way.

I don’t see the family’s position as nefarious. It’s :
A) what their hearts believe at this point in time, and if that’s how they survive day to day then god knows I wouldn’t begrudge them it the poor poor people

OR
B) they know a whole lot that we don’t due to police keeping a very tight lid on the case and wanting absolutely minimal info in the public domain for operational reasons, and what they know confirms their beliefs that it wasn’t related to tech / internet access etc

OR
C) It is tactically beneficial to the police investigation to have the belief that it’s not tech/internet related out there uncorrected, even if information has gradually emerged over the years that contradicts this.

For those of us who have followed the case for a long time, there is SO LITTLE NEW INFORMATION OUT THERE, especially in the last few years. Even when there were major arrests, the information was absolutely scant. I’ve said this before - but this case is heavily locked down for a reason, I’m absolutely sure of it.

It’s really frustrating because … yes, this one haunts me. Absolutely. I want answers so badly!!!!!

 

[davidt]

Going over this case, the main ‘mystery’ here seems to come from the family telling the story over the years, to the press or podcasters, and downplaying what they don’t want to believe and hyping up whatever comforts them.

As in: If the online grooming theory is entertained (they don't want to think that's the case), they'll say the police found nothing in the Andrew's schools and public library computers > the police couldn’t have missed anything here. But if the eyewitness sightings that weren’t reported until weeks after the boy was confirmed to have gone ton London weren’t followed through > the police was incompetent and slow.

The portrait of Andrew’s personality is equally biased. The parents (mostly the father, who’s granting the interviews) paint him as a ‘deep thinker’, a ‘gifted student’ etc. The boy was perfect. They downplay any possible sign of behavioral changes: if he quit church and the boy scouts, that’s just because he wanted to pursue other interests.

What other interests? We don’t know, because the boy just stayed home playing videogames, locked away in his room or the cellar, and the parents had no idea what he was doing. The only certainty they have (now) was that Andrew wasn't interest in computers or the internet. Yes, this 14-year-old geeky kid in 2007, adopting style codes of the blooming emo subculture and an avid fan of metal bands, never connected to strangers online or downloaded a song.

That's absurd. The family’s insistence that they never had computers and/or internet connection in the house until a few weeks before he went missing is absurd. This was 2007. Andrew had an older sister. The family had owned multiple cellphones and bought an XBOX and a PSP for Andrew – they weren’t tech-adverse. If we take this as a fact, I’d be thinking of a sheltered upbringing that a kid Andrew’s age would be desperate to break free from.

The way I see it, this boy wasn’t happy and well-adjusted. That doesn't mean he was living on the brink; he was just going through the experience that many a teen in the mid-2000s went through. Previous acts of rebellion (like coming home late and saying he walked instead of taking the bus one week before he disappeared) went unnoticed by the family. That's fine - it wouldn't be a red flag for most parents.

But their denials of anything of sorts - as if Andrew's trip to London was the first time he ever lied to his parents - is not justifiable at this point. Their religious activities, their concerns about their son becoming more and more secluded and possibly struggling with his sexuality, the previous lies that might have gone unnoticed... Why not discuss it openly now?

Not considered it before but is there any PROOF Andrew did walk home from school? Did anyone see him on the route? Could he have been doing something completely different and then dropped off near his home?

 

[JellyBee]

The portrait of Andrew’s personality is equally biased

I have to agree.

We’re told he’s this shy introverted boy who did nothing but sit in the basement playing games. He wouldn’t leave the house without telling anyone where he was going. He didn’t have many friends. He wasn’t street smart. He wasn’t the kind to be sneaky.

Well all of that is immediately disproven by the facts we know on the day he went missing. He pretended he was leaving the house and came back after his parents left. He took all of the money out of his bank account but left the cash at home, in my opinion so they didn’t ask questions about where his money went. He made the big decision to travel into London alone, which is well known to be complicated to navigate (and I imagine quite intimidating for a teenage boy who is described as though he wouldn’t have even had the ability to walk to the local shop by himself). He walked an hour and a half home from school instead of getting the bus for reasons unknown. He was missing for hours and they didn’t know because they assumed he was downstairs playing games… so they clearly weren’t actively watching over him to know what he was doing on that Xbox or PSP.

I wish we had other peoples perspectives on what kind of person Andrew was. I have a son slightly younger and have caught him a few times doing things behind my back which always surprise me. We don’t know them as well as we think we do, even with all of the right precautions in place

 

[davidt]

I have to agree.

We’re told he’s this shy introverted boy who did nothing but sit in the basement playing games. He wouldn’t leave the house without telling anyone where he was going. He didn’t have many friends. He wasn’t street smart. He wasn’t the kind to be sneaky.

Well all of that is immediately disproven by the facts we know on the day he went missing. He pretended he was leaving the house and came back after his parents left. He took all of the money out of his bank account but left the cash at home, in my opinion so they didn’t ask questions about where his money went. He made the big decision to travel into London alone, which is well known to be complicated to navigate (and I imagine quite intimidating for a teenage boy who is described as though he wouldn’t have even had the ability to walk to the local shop by himself). He walked an hour and a half home from school instead of getting the bus for reasons unknown. He was missing for hours and they didn’t know because they assumed he was downstairs playing games… so they clearly weren’t actively watching over him to know what he was doing on that Xbox or PSP.

I wish we had other peoples perspectives on what kind of person Andrew was. I have a son slightly younger and have caught him a few times doing things behind my back which always surprise me. We don’t know them as well as we think we do, even with all of the right precautions in place

I'd make one small caveat to this. We don't know for certain Andrew was pretending to go to school when he left that morning. It might not be very likely but it is possible he did genuinely leave for school and only decided no to, whilst on the way. Currently there's no evidence at all as to what Andrew had or had not planned so everything really remains open.

Possibly one of the reasons we don't have other perspectives of Andrew is because there aren't many people to provide them. We're told he had a small group of friends at school he didn't socialise with at other times. Given he lived around 4 miles from the school there may have been practical reasons for that. Someone who knew him said he had cut himself off from other friends. He'd left church and scouts and doesn't appear to have replaced that with anything. It does appear he was becoming more introverted as time progressed. In the summer holidays his parents suggested he go and visit his grandparents, possibly to get him out of the house perhaps? He turned that down.

The picture is of someone who spent most of his time on his own and his parents left him to it. I'm always a little dubious relying on close family members for information. Sometimes you can be too close. Assuming your child will always be honest and confide in you is somewhat naive. As is the idea you know everything going on. Also if there were any family issues that might show other family members in a bad light you're not going to broadcast that are you ?

Have to admit I've always found it curious Andrew's lack of interest in the Internet and phones etc when he was an avid gamer. He'd lost or broken previous mobile phones and didn't want another. Apparently didn't even have an email address.

Don't think I've seen anything else at all on Andrew taking part in any other activities (summer school excepted).

 

[KathPlumber]

Not considered it before but is there any PROOF Andrew did walk home from school? Did anyone see him on the route? Could he have been doing something completely different and then dropped off near his home?

I’ve never seen the information expressed in a way that makes the answer to this clear. I’m sure I’m not alone in thinking he could have been up to anything!

 

[KathPlumber]

I'd make one small caveat to this. We don't know for certain Andrew was pretending to go to school when he left that morning. It might not be very likely but it is possible he did genuinely leave for school and only decided no to, whilst on the way. Currently there's no evidence at all as to what Andrew had or had not planned so everything really remains open.

Possibly one of the reasons we don't have other perspectives of Andrew is because there aren't many people to provide them. We're told he had a small group of friends at school he didn't socialise with at other times. Given he lived around 4 miles from the school there may have been practical reasons for that. Someone who knew him said he had cut himself off from other friends. He'd left church and scouts and doesn't appear to have replaced that with anything. It does appear he was becoming more introverted as time progressed. In the summer holidays his parents suggested he go and visit his grandparents, possibly to get him out of the house perhaps? He turned that down.

The picture is of someone who spent most of his time on his own and his parents left him to it. I'm always a little dubious relying on close family members for information. Sometimes you can be too close. Assuming your child will always be honest and confide in you is somewhat naive. As is the idea you know everything going on. Also if there were any family issues that might show other family members in a bad light you're not going to broadcast that are you ?

Have to admit I've always found it curious Andrew's lack of interest in the Internet and phones etc when he was an avid gamer. He'd lost or broken previous mobile phones and didn't want another. Apparently didn't even have an email address.

Don't think I've seen anything else at all on Andrew taking part in any other activities (summer school excepted).

Helped his mother run a church youth group over the holidays that had just passed

 

[davidt]

I’ve never seen the information expressed in a way that makes the answer to this clear. I’m sure I’m not alone in thinking he could have been up to anything!

I've always taken it for granted but I don't think I've ever seen anything to say anyone saw him walking at the appropriate times. I may have missed it but it might just be Andrew's word we are taking.

 

[davidt]

Helped his mother run a church youth group over the holidays that had just passed

I missed that. I wonder if he had any ongoing outside activities?

 

[FaerieDust]

I'd make one small caveat to this. We don't know for certain Andrew was pretending to go to school when he left that morning. It might not be very likely but it is possible he did genuinely leave for school and only decided no to, whilst on the way. Currently there's no evidence at all as to what Andrew had or had not planned so everything really remains open.

Possibly one of the reasons we don't have other perspectives of Andrew is because there aren't many people to provide them. We're told he had a small group of friends at school he didn't socialise with at other times. Given he lived around 4 miles from the school there may have been practical reasons for that. Someone who knew him said he had cut himself off from other friends. He'd left church and scouts and doesn't appear to have replaced that with anything. It does appear he was becoming more introverted as time progressed. In the summer holidays his parents suggested he go and visit his grandparents, possibly to get him out of the house perhaps? He turned that down.

The picture is of someone who spent most of his time on his own and his parents left him to it. I'm always a little dubious relying on close family members for information. Sometimes you can be too close. Assuming your child will always be honest and confide in you is somewhat naive. As is the idea you know everything going on. Also if there were any family issues that might show other family members in a bad light you're not going to broadcast that are you ?

Have to admit I've always found it curious Andrew's lack of interest in the Internet and phones etc when he was an avid gamer. He'd lost or broken previous mobile phones and didn't want another. Apparently didn't even have an email address.

Don't think I've seen anything else at all on Andrew taking part in any other activities (summer school excepted).

The lack of email thing is a big sticker for the PSP modding forums, if that’s true then it’s a dead end. Without knowing what alias he went by (if he did at all) searching is slow going. There’s many aliases that look promising at first glance e.g. xxDarkAngelxx, demonhunter, AlucardDracula, etc but they’re so overused in the years since that it’s impossible to find any more accurate info. Seems that a lot of alternative/emo kids had the same hobby. Also many websites are archived and limited in snapshots. I’ll keep looking though.

I’ve asked my friend who used to be involved in the PSP Homebrew modding community. He knows of individuals who met up after meeting on these forums, but thankfully they turned out to all be teenagers and nothing nefarious happened (the friends who met up did not live in the UK). After discussing Andrew’s case a bit, my friend thought it was more likely that Andrew ended up at a gig. We discussed how we got into gigs within the same time period without being ID’d despite being under 16 (as long as you weren’t trying to purchase alcohol inside the venue). I even attended a metal festival with a friend of the same age at around age 15, this was after Andrew went missing, and didn’t get ID’d because we weren’t buying alcohol. We did not look over 16.

The metal and alternative community is certainly welcoming and protective for the most part, but there are certainly predators at the fringes. I’m reminded me of an alternative fashion YouTuber who recently posted the story of her being groomed by a 20 year old man at the age of 14. They had initially met in person, and she moved in with him before she was 16. It ended when she was 18 thankfully, but the situation did make me think of Andrew, particularly because they had met in person rather than online, with the connection being alternative subcultures.

 

[VelvetDiamante]

I have to agree.

We’re told he’s this shy introverted boy who did nothing but sit in the basement playing games. He wouldn’t leave the house without telling anyone where he was going. He didn’t have many friends. He wasn’t street smart. He wasn’t the kind to be sneaky.

Well all of that is immediately disproven by the facts we know on the day he went missing. He pretended he was leaving the house and came back after his parents left. He took all of the money out of his bank account but left the cash at home, in my opinion so they didn’t ask questions about where his money went. He made the big decision to travel into London alone, which is well known to be complicated to navigate (and I imagine quite intimidating for a teenage boy who is described as though he wouldn’t have even had the ability to walk to the local shop by himself). He walked an hour and a half home from school instead of getting the bus for reasons unknown. He was missing for hours and they didn’t know because they assumed he was downstairs playing games… so they clearly weren’t actively watching over him to know what he was doing on that Xbox or PSP.

I wish we had other peoples perspectives on what kind of person Andrew was. I have a son slightly younger and have caught him a few times doing things behind my back which always surprise me. We don’t know them as well as we think we do, even with all of the right precautions in place

Andrew did used to walk to the shops by himself and would leave a note for his parents when he did.

I don't get the impression that Andrew was some sort of nervous wallflower. Even though he was shy/introverted, his parents and Maths teacher also described him as headstrong and confident in his abilities. One of his classmates said something about him leading his "mathletes" type team at school. He was planning on growing his hair long and dyeing it black at the time he disappeared, I think this shows he was starting to grow up and explore his individuality. He also seemed to have a lot of hobbies and niche interests as well. I can fully believe that he would travel to his favourite city on his own.

I think the reason for his trip to London was something exciting for him, I don't believe the suicide theory for Andrew.