UK UK - Andrew Gosden, 14, Doncaster, South Yorks, 14 Sep 2007 #2

[ChatteringBirds]

Their religious activities, their concerns about their son becoming more and more secluded and possibly struggling with his sexuality, the previous lies that might have gone unnoticed... Why not discuss it openly now?

What do you think isn't being discussed openly enough that might help solve this?

I feel that Andrew's father Kevin has said everything he can say/knows. What else could you expect that could help this case? Even if they expressed specific concerns, how would that advance the case?

 

[dotr]

Wondering if Andrew went in search of a 'cool' hair salon to get his hair dyed black & maybe even to try and get a tattoo(of a fave band) somewhere in London? speculation.

Disappearance of Andrew Gosden - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

'' Gosden had light brown hair but was planning to dye it black before he disappeared. ''

 

[KathPlumber]

I don't really have any thoughts as to whether Worboys and/or the Quaker idea are good or not.

I took it upon myself to research some websites and forums related to PSP modding. Here's a BBC Article from February 2007 describing the first 'unlocking' of the PSPs firmware to allow the use of pirated games.

I found a blogpost also from February 2007 that details how to mod the PSP to use batteries instead of a charger, so maybe Andrew wasn't using his PSP charger.

A blog post on Andrew's dad's blog recently detailed how Andrew helped him make some shelves as a child, and was "He was around 10 I think and not at all bad with a chisel to cut slots for the small glass shelves and dovetail joints on the corners.". This boy was not a clumsy kid, with minimal research he could likely complete a PSP mod like the one detailed above, since it suggests using a household iron to solder if you don't own a soldering iron (although he could access a soldering iron in school in a Design & Technology or Physics class).

Also, to clarify, they only painted his bedroom to blue last year when they were doing renovations, not just after his disappearance like some have claimed recently. It's all in that blog post.

Here's an interview with a man who cracked and shared pirated PC games. They are overlooked, average individuals:



Here are some archived links to interviews with PSP crackers/hackers. They mention being normal people with day jobs, partners, babies on the way, etc.

These are intelligent and skilled individuals in coding/programming. Andrew was very gifted in maths and science particularly, programming or coding is essentially more complicated algebra. I could definitely see a boy like that being interested in such things, and very good at it. A lot of programming can be done on a computer terminal, computer notepad or even pen and paper.

If Andrew did want to go off grid for whatever reason, and theoretically got very interested or good at programming and modding, it would be fairly straightforward to use connections via game pirating forums to access stolen credit card details to use for online purchases. For example the 18 year old arrested in this case from September 2007, many people involved in this ring were never located or identified. Much like the hackers these days, these are teenagers up to (destructive) computer mischief, which they cannot quite comprehend the real-world implications of.

The question is: would a normal boy like Andrew become involved in this? Or did he meet up with someone from a forum or online gaming, like poor Breck Bednar, who was killed by an older boy who he met on a gaming forum? Did he go to London because he thought he was buying a mod chip and harm befell him?

Edited to remove link to hacking forum because that's probably not allowed. And also formatting.
Edit 2: I'll keep looking at old forum posts to see if I can spot any threads or messages that seem relevent. Likely I won't, but I've personally become interested in OSINT recently so I'm happy to put my time to good use.

I had something I wanted to PM you but I don’t seem to be able to

 

[FaerieDust]

I had something I wanted to PM you but I don’t seem to be able to

PM’d you

 

[lebvidox]

Not considered it before but is there any PROOF Andrew did walk home from school? Did anyone see him on the route? Could he have been doing something completely different and then dropped off near his home?

That's just what he told his father that day. No proof whatsoever. And the father only noticed because he happened to come home from work earlier than usual. At first, he assumed Andrew was already home, either in his room studying or in the cellar playing videogames (the same happened the day he went missing) - bottom-line is, even the family was used to giving him space, and can't account for how he spent his time even when he was inside the home. So, when the father saw Andrew walking to the front door, Andrew reportedly told him he had decided to walk instead of taking the bus.

The father didn't think much of it, but that's certainly something that I look back and consider how was he really spending that time. A lot in this case - in the official narratives, at least - relies in assumptions sometimes paraded as facts.

 

[lebvidox]

What do you think isn't being discussed openly enough that might help solve this?

I feel that Andrew's father Kevin has said everything he can say/knows. What else could you expect that could help this case? Even if they expressed specific concerns, how would that advance the case?

Personally, I don’t think the family ever saw the church activities as potentially suspicious or as a window for an in-person grooming scenario, but the revelations we got over the years do indicate this could be an avenue worth of exploring. Such as:

The Gosdens are church people; they discovered Andrew hadn’t been to school that Friday not by contacting the school, as most assume, but by calling friends from church who either work or have children in the school;

Andrew’s father said Andrew spent one week of his 2007 summer break (therefore, shortly before he went missing) helping his mother run a church program, and that was allegedly over a year after Andrew decided to stop going to church as well – what could have interested him there? The chance to reconnect with someone? Was he pressured by the family to take up this activity again? How could this have played a role in his emotional state?

The father also said Andrew chose to stop going to church after his older sister, Charlotte, argued with her parents because she did not want to go anymore; he brushes it off in the sense of ‘Charlotte was old enough to decide’, but suggests Andrew only stopped going because he wanted to sleep late on the weekend – so, the girl made an informed decision to quit, but Andrew, in his father’s view, just followed along for no legitimate reasons of his own.

I'm not saying the Kevin didn't say everything he can to the police, but publicly, in any interviews he's granted, he's either never pressured any further or willingly avoids going into this topic or REALLY doesn't see it as something relevant to Andrew's choices that eventually led up to his disappearance. My point is that it could be, we don't know.

Why did he really chose to leave? Why did he went back for an entire week of his summer break, despite being given an opportunity to spend a week with his grandmother in London? Why did acquaintances from the church - and not other connections from school - seem to be the entire of his social circle known by his parents? Those are still valid questions.

Edit to include something I forgot: Plus, Kevin also said that, noticing Andrew was more of a 'home bird', he had told his wife 'give it a year, he'll soon be after girls and we won't ever see him in the house'. Their church involvement and the assumption of Andrew's blooming interest in 'girls', added to their posterior pleas to the media in the case Andrew ran away because he was gay and feared he wouldn't be accepted, do make me wonder about the circumstances that only in hindsight the family could see as harmful to their son.

 

[JellyBee]

So, when the father saw Andrew walking to the front door, Andrew reportedly told him he had decided to walk instead of taking the bus.

This alone just makes me question what he was really doing and if he was actually meeting someone secretly in Doncaster. IMO it just sounds like he was really good at hiding what he was up to, like most teenage boys

 

[Inspector Evans]

The lack of email thing is a big sticker for the PSP modding forums, if that’s true then it’s a dead end. Without knowing what alias he went by (if he did at all) searching is slow going. There’s many aliases that look promising at first glance e.g. xxDarkAngelxx, demonhunter, AlucardDracula, etc but they’re so overused in the years since that it’s impossible to find any more accurate info. Seems that a lot of alternative/emo kids had the same hobby. Also many websites are archived and limited in snapshots. I’ll keep looking though.

I’ve asked my friend who used to be involved in the PSP Homebrew modding community. He knows of individuals who met up after meeting on these forums, but thankfully they turned out to all be teenagers and nothing nefarious happened (the friends who met up did not live in the UK). After discussing Andrew’s case a bit, my friend thought it was more likely that Andrew ended up at a gig. We discussed how we got into gigs within the same time period without being ID’d despite being under 16 (as long as you weren’t trying to purchase alcohol inside the venue). I even attended a metal festival with a friend of the same age at around age 15, this was after Andrew went missing, and didn’t get ID’d because we weren’t buying alcohol. We did not look over 16.

The metal and alternative community is certainly welcoming and protective for the most part, but there are certainly predators at the fringes. I’m reminded me of an alternative fashion YouTuber who recently posted the story of her being groomed by a 20 year old man at the age of 14. They had initially met in person, and she moved in with him before she was 16. It ended when she was 18 thankfully, but the situation did make me think of Andrew, particularly because they had met in person rather than online, with the connection being alternative subcultures.

As discussed a few times previously there was a gamers convention meet up in a public space in London that very weekend. Someone filming about ten minutes of it is still up on Youtube and there are comments saying a couple of the teenagers who feature in it look like Andrew.

Of course it's not him but that is the type of event I'm sure he would have felt comfortable at. People his own age who might be introverts but like gaming and a few had band t shirts on so emo music of that time would also be a popular conversation.

That was on the Saturday though not the Friday. If he was going to it he'd surely have travelled down on the Saturday morning unless he wanted to fit a gig in the previous day and then stay somewhere overnight.

 

[JellyBee]

Andrew decided to stop going to church as well

I would be very intrigued to know if anyone else stopped going to church around the same time as him. Not Charlotte of course, but maybe someone who could be considered a peer, another young boy or maybe someone else who dressed similarly to Andrew.

It is very easy to form a bond with someone who hates being somewhere as much as you do, especially when it’s somewhere as boring as church for a teenager who may feel they’re being forced to go. Someone who could maybe become a bit of a bad influence?

I was in a similar situation as a child and made friends who felt the same as me. We’d gear each other upto tell our parents we didn’t want to go anymore or didn’t believe in God, but I was only around 10 years old

 

[lebvidox]

I would be very intrigued to know if anyone else stopped going to church around the same time as him. Not Charlotte of course, but maybe someone who could be considered a peer, another young boy or maybe someone else who dressed similarly to Andrew.

It is very easy to form a bond with someone who hates being somewhere as much as you do, especially when it’s somewhere as boring as church for a teenager who may feel they’re being forced to go. Someone who could maybe become a bit of a bad influence?

I was in a similar situation as a child and made friends who felt the same as me. We’d gear each other upto tell our parents we didn’t want to go anymore or didn’t believe in God, but I was only around 10 years old

I did consider, especially in the in-person grooming scenario, if an older kid from church had moved to London around this time and returned during the summer break, therefore peeking Andrew's interest to join his mother in this activity. In this case, we could be looking at a years-long bond, not a recent relationship or online chit-chats with a stranger. Opportunities to make plans and arrangements for a particular day-trip... I also consider this wasn't planned as an act of foul play, but a reaction after Andrew refused certain advancements when they met up in London.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

Okay, I can see the idea that maybe someone affiliated with the church may have been involved somehow, and that maybe the possibility wasn't considered enough.

And I don't mean anyone in particular, because that's the kind of narrow thinking that could mean the real suspect is missed. But law enforcement can be reluctant to really investigate church communities. And families can be reluctant to even suspect the church community. I can think of other cases where this is also true.

 

[JellyBee]

Okay, I can see the idea that maybe someone affiliated with the church may have been involved somehow, and that maybe the possibility wasn't considered enough.

And I don't mean anyone in particular, because that's the kind of narrow thinking that could mean the real suspect is missed. But law enforcement can be reluctant to really investigate church communities. And families can be reluctant to even suspect the church community. I can think of other cases where this is also true.

It could also just be that nobody really thought about it because it seemed unimportant. Someone else’s child/an older teenager or even another adult leaving church would be old news by the time Andrew goes missing. I imagine people come and go quite regularly, and especially children as they grow up and make their own choices. This is the kind of question his parents would really have to think about, I presume.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

I never put a lot of thought into that before, but I think you make a very good point in wondering why the family spent the weekend searching and leafletting Whitby, so quickly, as one of their priorities.

It may have been a getaway location they knew he loved and maybe other friends and relatives took over that weekend for the intense Doncaster searching, but it's interesting.

I am not as far as thinking it indicates he ran away before or even talked about it, but it does seem true they quickly thought, or more likely hoped-beyond- hope, that he went for an adventure.

Maybe it was an intuitive sense in their part that he left their town.

IMO it means they saw him as capable of running away, and I think once they realized he went to London and there were reported sightings there, that's what they really thought happened. (Of course; who wouldn't?)

I can only imagine my child disappearing from our home, I would be literally going door-to-door in our neighborhood the first day(s). But I also think someone did do that, because I think his father said they did take a divide-and-conquer approach that first weekend. Do you want me to try to find some interview links, or have you already seen them?

 

[Konstantin]

IMO it just sounds like he was really good at hiding what he was up to, like most teenage boys

Yes. Relying on Andrew's dad for 100% unassailable knowledge of what Andrew was up to is pointless. It is entirely possible that Andrew had a secret mobile phone that he just lied about to his parents. In fact I would say that it is very likely.

We’re told by the family that this boy had no internet access to keep up to date with a distant town’s cultural calendar or to communicate remotely with someone else – anyone who could offer to host him over the weekend, since a 14-year-old obviously couldn’t book and check into a hotel without an adult. Their conviction that Andrew couldn’t be in Doncaster stands out to me.

Again, I am very skeptical that Andrew didn't have internet access because his family said he didn't. He was a teenage boy and it's fairly certain they didn't know what he was up to. He went to London and they had no clue about that, so what else was he hiding? Andrew was smart if not street smart.

I am also interested in why Andrew's dad was making the comments about "if Andrew was gay" -- maybe he suspected something about that but Andrew, like many teenagers, didn't feel comfortable talking about that with his parents. Or maybe he didn't know for sure himself.

<modsnip - reddit is not an approved source>

 

[FaerieDust]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed (not an approved source)

I never put a lot of thought into that before, but I think you make a very good point in wondering why the family spent the weekend searching and leafletting Whitby, so quickly, as one of their priorities.

It may have been a getaway location they knew he loved and maybe other friends and relatives took over that weekend for the intense Doncaster searching, but it's interesting.

I am not as far as thinking it indicates he ran away before or even talked about it, but it does seem true they quickly thought, or more likely hoped-beyond- hope, that he went for an adventure.

Maybe it was an intuitive sense in their part that he left their town.

IMO it means they saw him as capable of running away, and I think once they realized he went to London and there were reported sightings there, that's what they really thought happened. (Of course; who wouldn't?)

I can only imagine my child disappearing from our home, I would be literally going door-to-door in our neighborhood the first day(s). But I also think someone did do that, because I think his father said they did take a divide-and-conquer approach that first weekend. Do you want me to try to find some interview links, or have you already seen them?

Whitby has a bi-yearly Goth festival and has a lot of goth shops, due to the novel Dracula by Bram Stoker partly being set there and partly set in London. It’s also in the north of England, closer to Doncaster than, say, Brighton on the south coast which is another alternative culture hub. Camden in London would be an obvious alternative teenager’s dream choice as well. I’m surprised they didn’t look at Manchester with Affleck’s Palace (alternative market).

Here are some pictures on Flickr of Whitby goth weekend in 2007. Kind of considered the Goth mecca of the UK, the European version being Wave Gotik Treffen in Germany. It's in April and October/November every year.

Edited to correct info

 

[ChatteringBirds]

Also to add,

But their dismissal of external dangers - anything that could have happened to him close to home, the sort of foul play that will cross the minds of most parents in this situation - might also suggest Andrew had previously manifested his unhappiness, his urge to get away

I don't think they dismissed the possibility of local danger, but they were letting LE do their thing. Amd I agree with your last two quoted lines.

But then, such feelings are common for teens.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

It is entirely possible that Andrew had a secret mobile phone that he just lied about to his parents. In fact I would say that it is very likely.

Why do you think it was likely he had a secret phone, when we know he was considered by his own family to be not particularly social?

Internet/email/chat rooms and gaming would appeal to such a person.

But why do you think a phone? It would have just been a basic phone.

 

[lebvidox]

Yes, but that Goth festival happens twice a year and it wouldn't happen until the end of October in 2007.

In 2007, trains from Doncaster to Whitby typically had a journey time of around 3 hours and 14 minutes to 4 hours and 28 minutes, compared to an average of 1 hour 44 minutes in a direct train from Doncaster to London. The possibility of the boy skipping school to go to a shopping spree of sorts without someone there that could possibly host him (again, he couldn't check in at any hotel as a minor), plus the conclusion he had to have taken a train and not possibly make arrangements to be driven by someone from Doncaster, is the sort of stuff that makes me look back at a couple of things...

Like, the family's desperate efforts in those crucial early hours do NOT point to a conviction that Andrew couldn't have had access to the internet to keep in touch with someone else or even to research possible activities in this town that's not an unlimited playground of cultural events like London.

 

[FaerieDust]

I found an old gaming forum thread from 2007 that talks about 'piggybacking' on neighbour's open wifi signals. So it's possible he did that for internet.

The same forum were giving advice to someone travelling to London and then go on to visit friends in Birmingham, but none of the accounts that replied looked viable as being Andrew because they were active after Andrew went missing, and it didn't really sound like much of a meet up.

Edited because I posted before re-reading the thread and it was misleading, sorry.

 

[lebvidox]

I never put a lot of thought into that before, but I think you make a very good point in wondering why the family spent the weekend searching and leafletting Whitby, so quickly, as one of their priorities.

It may have been a getaway location they knew he loved and maybe other friends and relatives took over that weekend for the intense Doncaster searching, but it's interesting.

I am not as far as thinking it indicates he ran away before or even talked about it, but it does seem true they quickly thought, or more likely hoped-beyond- hope, that he went for an adventure.

Maybe it was an intuitive sense in their part that he left their town.

IMO it means they saw him as capable of running away, and I think once they realized he went to London and there were reported sightings there, that's what they really thought happened. (Of course; who wouldn't?)

I can only imagine my child disappearing from our home, I would be literally going door-to-door in our neighborhood the first day(s). But I also think someone did do that, because I think his father said they did take a divide-and-conquer approach that first weekend. Do you want me to try to find some interview links, or have you already seen them?

What strikes me as odd is that, going from what they could know as a fact in those early hours - the boy with a perfect attendance record never showed up in school, his bank account was emptied and there's not yet the CCTV footage to prove he went alone to that ATM and not forced by someone who abducted him from the bus spot etc etc -, we should expect most 'worst case scenarios' would be crossing their minds. 'It's unlike him, he had to have been coerced, he wouldn't leave like this and let us to worry...'

You'd try to access the dangers closer to home instead of entertaining 'what ifs' of a voluntary exit and a distant city or town - UNLESS you had previous indications of this boy's desire to get away, or mentions to this particular place, or even the certainty this boy wasn't so removed from online activities after all. We're told Andrew liked metal bands, but he spent more time gaming than anything else, if we go by the parents' version: why not starting searching in a town that hosts gaming conventions? His interests weren't that restrict.