UK UK - Andrew Gosden, 14, Doncaster, South Yorks, 14 Sep 2007 #2

[lebvidox]

Why do you think it was likely he had a secret phone, when we know he was considered by his own family to be not particularly social?

Internet/email/chat rooms and gaming would appeal to such a person.

But why do you think a phone? It would have just been a basic phone.

That's a different angle here, and I personally don't believe Andrew ever 'lost' his cellphones. I don't think he had a cellphone with him when he went missing, but I do believe he got rid of the previous devices that were given to him on purpose. 2007 cellphones weren't the open gate to the internet as they are today - and if we take it that Andrew got his first cellphone when he was 12, back in 2005, they could only serve to keep him under stricter parental control.

But most importantly, the internet in 2007 was not necessarily a place to be 'social' as in the sense of connecting with acquaintances from real life. There were tons of chat rooms and communities where like-minded people could come together in a way they couldn't in their own circles - especially for teenagers.

 

[BethAnn777]

Have Andrew’s parents ever commented on if this was the one and only time Andrew could have snuck off to London around that timeframe? He had perfect school attendance, so we can forget about him going on a school day. What about weekends and the summer right before he went missing? Perhaps this was not the first time he went to London on his own without telling anyone.

 

[lebvidox]

Have Andrew’s parents ever commented on if this was the one and only time Andrew could have snuck off to London around that timeframe? He had perfect school attendance, so we can forget about him going on a school day. What about weekends and the summer right before he went missing? Perhaps this was not the first time he went to London on his own without telling anyone.

My current take is that Andrew's 'love' for London only became a part of the family's narrative after it had been confirmed he went there. They want to believe in the scenarios that are more comfortable for any parent. Like parents of missing children rather to believe they were taken by a loving family who's raising them well; or when there's evidence that a child killer living a block way has done it, but the creep never confessed and no bones were found buried in their yard, then the kid could still be alive and happy somewhere.

That's the only reason I can come up with for Andrew's parents resistance to entertain any possibility of in-person or online grooming being involved in Andrew's decision to go to London that day (as I've said in a previous comment, they had first assumed the boy went to Whitby). London gives them all kinds of possibilities: he went to a museum, he found his crowd with the goths or the gays or whoever could support him financially and not harm him.

So, I don't think Andrew had gone to London on his own before, but the parents were absolutely certain he was deeply unhappy in Doncaster and had nothing to keep him there.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

My current take is that Andrew's 'love' for London only became a part of the family's narrative after it had been confirmed he went there

My understanding is that right from the start they considered he took a trip to either London or Whitby.

But in any case, London would be the perfect place to either lure a teen (what young person doesn't want to explore the huge cities?) or for an "random" act by a suspect to occur.

If you think he was probably lured there, it's tragic to consider the lack of evidence, because it was really law enforcement's job to quickly look for whether he was groomed/lured. That wasn't his parents' role. They only needed to cooperate with LE fully, which they did. If anyone needed to immediately consider all scenarios, it was LE, IMO.

 

[lebvidox]

My understanding is that right from the start they considered he took a trip to either London or Whitby.

But in any case, London would be the perfect place to either lure a teen (what young person doesn't want to explore the huge cities?) or for an "random" act by a suspect to occur.

If you think he was probably lured there, it's tragic to consider the lack of evidence, because it was really law enforcement's job to quickly look for whether he was groomed/lured. That wasn't his parents' role. They only needed to cooperate with LE fully, which they did. If anyone needed to immediately consider all scenarios, it was LE, IMO.

I think LE gets dragged a lot, and not so fairly, in this case. The boy was reported missing in Doncaster. Only on Monday a ticket seller says she remembered him buying a ticket to London, but there’s no CCTV footage of this, no timestamped record of the sale, no way of knowing what train he boarded. The local police could only go through the proper channels to get some other department to look over the footage, and good luck finding this boy in the crowd…

LE also took computers from Andrew’s school and public libraries and, by Kevin Gosden’s statements, did such a good job at it that they couldn’t have possibly missed anything – that’s bull, of course. The police can’t know if he was groomed online or in person (there are too many angles to explore as well in this other avenue, and the groomer could be from Doncaster or anywhere); the police can’t look over the computers of any cybercafe in Doncaster, or even be sure if something that they found in the computers they analyzed could be meaningful or meaningless (i.e. someone searching how to get from King’s Cross to Buckingham Palace or anywhere in London – it could be Andrew, it could not be Andrew).

If Andrew was being secretive, this would be as hard to solve in those precious early hours as any 'stranger homicides': you can't rule out anything, yet you can't establish an immediate link between the victim and a potential predator.

 

[sportstergirl]

I've always thought Andrew was lured to London & the bait was 2 of his favourite bands (Si'kth & 30 Seconds to Mars) had shows there that weekend. Was he groomed on a music or fan club site?
Was the CCTV of the audiences checked out? I think he came to harm soon after arriving in London.
There was a possible sighting at a Muse concert (can't remember where or when) a few years later but nothing came of it.

 

[Inspector Evans]

I've always thought Andrew was lured to London & the bait was 2 of his favourite bands (Si'kth & 30 Seconds to Mars) had shows there that weekend. Was he groomed on a music or fan club site?
Was the CCTV of the audiences checked out? I think he came to harm soon after arriving in London.
There was a possible sighting at a Muse concert (can't remember where or when) a few years later but nothing came of it.

I could certainly envisage a scenario where he went to watch a gig. Think in those days it would've been about 20 quid to watch a show at one of the Academy sites but it was sold out so a bogus ticket tout maybe promised he'd get him in (while realising he was vulnerable and on his own in London).

Maybe watched the gig and promised him a room for the night and then something very bad happened.

It is a scenario as good as any I think. Was reasonably warm day and he went down without a coat and with a Slipknot shirt on which is the attire for many a gig goer even when the weather is freezing.

Edit: I do think more focus should've been on some of the music events taking place reasonably close to XC that night. Not sure how many weeks passed before box office attendants and security and ticket staff were perhaps interviewed to see if they remember anyone of Andrew's description even in the vicinity of the venue but would be interested to know what the Met thought on that.

Find it more plausible than him just randomly deciding to bunk off School and go to London just on a whim. There was some event meaning he wanted to go that Friday rather than over the weekend or the next Monday.

 

[lebvidox]

I could certainly envisage a scenario where he went to watch a gig. Think in those days it would've been about 20 quid to watch a show at one of the Academy sites but it was sold out so a bogus ticket tout maybe promised he'd get him in (while realising he was vulnerable and on his own in London).

Maybe watched the gig and promised him a room for the night and then something very bad happened.

It is a scenario as good as any I think. Was reasonably warm day and he went down without a coat and with a Slipknot shirt on which is the attire for many a gig goer even when the weather is freezing.

Edit: I do think more focus should've been on some of the music events taking place reasonably close to XC that night. Not sure how many weeks passed before box office attendants and security and ticket staff were perhaps interviewed to see if they remember anyone of Andrew's description even in the vicinity of the venue but would be interested to know what the Met thought on that.

Find it more plausible than him just randomly deciding to bunk off School and go to London just on a whim. There was some event meaning he wanted to go that Friday rather than over the weekend or the next Monday.

I personally think he left planning to return that same day, based on his actions that morning. If I had to put money on it, I'd say he was meeting someone he had met before in person but was still kept touch with online. The totality of evidence doesn’t add up to me otherwise.

 

[Inspector Evans]

I personally think he left planning to return that same day, based on his actions that morning. If I had to put money on it, I'd say he was meeting someone he had met before in person but was still kept touch with online. The totality of evidence doesn’t add up to me otherwise.

It is strange behaviour not wanting a return ticket for all of 50p more. That wasn't the first time Andrew had been on the train (although perhaps solo) but certain he'd have known the difference between single and return ticket. He could even have got an off peak month return to cover him up to mid October.

My only query to that theory though is would he really have got back from a lift to Donny for the family dinner at 7pm? If the M1 is playing up it could take four hours to get back to Doncaster especially if the vehicle was parked in central London. Pretty much leaves him a couple of hours in London around lunchtime, is it really worth going down for that? Bit of an expensive Pizza Hut visit anyway!

Or was he happy rocking up at say 9-10pm even though his parents would've probably be worrying at that stage?

My other slightly long shot theory is he planned to go to event in London and then visit his relatives in Kent. His parents were encouraging him to go visit them that summer after all so he'd probably needed 40-50 quid to get a taxi there from central London?

However he got in unmarked vehicle and/or someone promising him lift and then awful things happened. That's why Worboys isn't someone you can 100% rule out given he was still at large in London in September 2007. If not him you only have to look at the Sarah Everard murder. London resident about ten minutes from her house just taken off the street and her life brutally ended.

That's where you'd fear for Andrew. Getting dark at around 7pm and him perhaps wandering quieter and edgy areas of London. He'd look very vulnerable to a motorist passing with malicious intentions.

 

[FaerieDust]

My other slightly long shot theory is he planned to go to event in London and then visit his relatives in Kent. His parents were encouraging him to go visit them that summer after all so he'd probably needed 40-50 quid to get a taxi there from central London?

However he got in unmarked vehicle and/or someone promising him lift and then awful things happened. That's why Worboys isn't someone you can 100% rule out given he was still at large in London in September 2007. If not him you only have to look at the Sarah Everard murder. London resident about ten minutes from her house just taken off the street and her life brutally ended.

That's where you'd fear for Andrew. Getting dark at around 7pm and him perhaps wandering quieter and edgy areas of London. He'd look very vulnerable to a motorist passing with malicious intentions.

His grandmother lived in London IIRC. The plan could have been to call her after whatever event/meet up had finished from a phone box and then travel to her house via taxi or bus from there. I can understand why he wouldn’t go straight to his nan’s upon arrival, since perhaps she would insist on going with him or discourage him from doing whatever he wanted to do, alone.

 

[lebvidox]

It is strange behaviour not wanting a return ticket for all of 50p more. That wasn't the first time Andrew had been on the train (although perhaps solo) but certain he'd have known the difference between single and return ticket. He could even have got an off peak month return to cover him up to mid October.

My only query to that theory though is would he really have got back from a lift to Donny for the family dinner at 7pm? If the M1 is playing up it could take four hours to get back to Doncaster especially if the vehicle was parked in central London. Pretty much leaves him a couple of hours in London around lunchtime, is it really worth going down for that? Bit of an expensive Pizza Hut visit anyway!

Or was he happy rocking up at say 9-10pm even though his parents would've probably be worrying at that stage?

My other slightly long shot theory is he planned to go to event in London and then visit his relatives in Kent. His parents were encouraging him to go visit them that summer after all so he'd probably needed 40-50 quid to get a taxi there from central London?

However he got in unmarked vehicle and/or someone promising him lift and then awful things happened. That's why Worboys isn't someone you can 100% rule out given he was still at large in London in September 2007. If not him you only have to look at the Sarah Everard murder. London resident about ten minutes from her house just taken off the street and her life brutally ended.

That's where you'd fear for Andrew. Getting dark at around 7pm and him perhaps wandering quieter and edgy areas of London. He'd look very vulnerable to a motorist passing with malicious intentions.

IMO, the lack of a return ticket is one of those elements in this case that's considered to be factual, but it can't actually be confirmed.

There's no CCTV record of him in the Doncaster station, no way to time stamp this transaction, it's all up to the recollection of the ticket seller, and her statements had simply been paraphrased by Andrew's parents over the years. The claims that he "insisted" in not getting the return ticket, as if the seller had tried to explain the deal to him, for instance, are doubtful.

Some things to consider: Andrew had never bought a ticket to London by himself, and never (as far as we know) had went there with his family by train to return that same day. If he just asks for a ticket to London - unlike experienced travelers who already get to the cashier and ask for a one-way ticket or a two-way ticket -, the seller could just have asked "just a one way ticket?", and he said "yes". We don't know if this woman said something like "Are you sure? It will only cost you X more". Or if Andrew knew he wouldn't have to decide on a specific return time if he took the deal. (He could be refusing because he wasn't sure how much time he would spend there that afternoon.)

I don't give credit to the Pizza Hit sighting. There's no indication this was Andrew. For all we know he hopped into a car shortly after leaving King's Cross. And I don't see him relying on some to take him back to Doncaster. I believed he always planned to return by train. I do believe, though, he planned to meet someone he knew personally (I can't see him mustering the courage to go meet a stranger in the chat room - if not for concern worries, for his social skills.)

And he could have been planning to meet someone from Doncaster who was now living in London or someone he met somewhere else and who would be in London that day (big cities like this can become ideal meet up spots). And he might not have even been 'groomed' by someone who intended to kill him.

A likely possibility, to me, in this scenario: someone he knew from church; an older guy who was now living and studying in London and with who Andrew reconnected weeks before (he could also be hanging out with this person that day his father saw him coming home late, which probably was not the first time this happened). It wasn't a planned murder per se; Andrew just wasn't receptive when this guy (when they were together in London) made a move on him.

This person panicked, thinking Andrew could say something to his parents, and Andrew's parents knew their parents (they were in the same church in Doncaster) etc. They could be fearing getting 'outed' (the religious family didn't know he was guy), or being charged with enticement of a minor, etc. He could have just choked Andrew while threatening him to keep quiet and suddenly the boy is dead...

A lot of crimes like this are just acts of desperation. They're not really planned, they're just messy and really hard to solve unless the connection between the victim and the possible perpetrator can be established.

 

[lebvidox]

His grandmother lived in London IIRC. The plan could have been to call her after whatever event/meet up had finished from a phone box and then travel to her house via taxi or bus from there. I can understand why he wouldn’t go straight to his nan’s upon arrival, since perhaps she would insist on going with him or discourage him from doing whatever he wanted to do, alone.

I can't picture Andrew as the 'ask for forgiveness rather than permission' kind of boy. So what, her grandmother would be the one to call his parents back in Doncaster to tell them Andrew was with her in London? I can't see it.

 

[Inspector Evans]

I can't picture Andrew as the 'ask for forgiveness rather than permission' kind of boy. So what, her grandmother would be the one to call his parents back in Doncaster to tell them Andrew was with her in London? I can't see it.

I think he'd have turned up on her doorstep. Can't see any scenario where he'd sleep rough or even go to a stranger's house if that night his grandmother lives in London. And he had other relatives slightly out in Kent.

However something happened in the afternoon that stopped all that and that remains the mystery. Just where did he spent that afternoon and with who?

Anyone know what time he had breakfast that morning? I assume half 7 if he was out of the house by 8am and was then wating for his parents to leave for work before returning.

Don't think anyone saw him eating on the train, just playing his PSP so I know at about 14/15 and being on a train for over two hours my first thought on arriving in London would be nagging my parents or whoever to take me somewhere to eat!

He had his bag so perhaps some food in there but I reckon Pizza Hut sighting is reasonably credible as think 14 year old coming in to eat on their own would be remembered once the story broke after a week nationally.

 

[lebvidox]

I think he'd have turned up on her doorstep. Can't see any scenario where he'd sleep rough or even go to a stranger's house if that night his grandmother lives in London. And he had other relatives slightly out in Kent.

However something happened in the afternoon that stopped all that and that remains the mystery. Just where did he spent that afternoon and with who?

Anyone know what time he had breakfast that morning? I assume half 7 if he was out of the house by 8am and was then wating for his parents to leave for work before returning.

Don't think anyone saw him eating on the train, just playing his PSP so I know at about 14/15 and being on a train for over two hours my first thought on arriving in London would be nagging my parents or whoever to take me somewhere to eat!

He had his bag so perhaps some food in there but I reckon Pizza Hut sighting is reasonably credible as think 14 year old coming in to eat on their own would be remembered once the story broke after a week nationally.

I can't see a scenario where he would think of staying in London overnight, either in his grandmother's home or anywhere else - unless he missed the last train and maybe was desperate enough to go to his gradmother.

He got to London before noon, so I don't see the need of a snack in the train. We don't know when this Pizza Hut sighting was reported, but the footage of Andrew in King's Cross was only confirmed three weeks later. They'd have no way of knowing the boy really went there (see my previous comments about the lack of records of his train ticket purchase - it all relied on the ticket seller's account)

Also, don't forget there were tons of boy with similar clothes and emo styles walking around London every day back in 2007.

 

[Konstantin]

There's no CCTV record of him in the Doncaster station, no way to time stamp this transaction, it's all up to the recollection of the ticket seller, and her statements had simply been paraphrased by Andrew's parents over the years. The claims that he "insisted" in not getting the return ticket, as if the seller had tried to explain the deal to him, for instance, are doubtful.

This. Also Andrew was a young teenager at the time. He had probably planned this trip at least a little bit in advance and probably had not realised or planned for being asked for a return. He really might not have known about return tickets being cheaper than 2 singles, wasn't expecting it and was also likely anxious about being obviously of school age buying a ticket on a school day. If he was rushed and anxious and wanted to end the conversation with ticket office staff asap, his behaviour makes sense. Plus as you say we don't really know about how this conversation really happened.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

A likely possibility, to me, in this scenario: someone he knew from church; an older guy who was now living and studying in London and with who Andrew reconnected weeks .... He could have just choked Andrew while threatening him to keep quiet and suddenly the boy is dead...

Quote shortened by me.

Please don't minimize such a murder as a panic "suddenly" event. You have to make the decision to do it, and It takes a large amount of strength and several minutes to murder someone this way. It's therefore premeditated, because there is time to stop.

He was 14. This person would have been a dangerous and predatory person, if something like that happened.

I agree he may have met up with someone in the day he claimed to walk home. I also think he may have actually walked home due to bullying behavior on that bus, though.

 

[lebvidox]

Quote shortened by me.

Please don't minimize such a murder as a panic "suddenly" event. You have to make the decision to do it, and It takes a large amount of strength and several minutes to murder someone this way. It's therefore premeditated, because there is time to stop.

He was 14. This person would have been a dangerous and predatory person, if something like that happened.

I agree he may have met up with someone in the day he claimed to walk home. I also think he may have actually walked home due to bullying behavior on that bus, though.

I was not minimizing it. I'm entertaining the possibility of an act that wasn't premeditated as first, like many a crime that's been committed against children.

We don't know if the murder was the intention or not. Many, many a children are abused by dangerous, predatory people - anyone who's not a minor but intends to have any sexual contact with this boy is predatory and dangerous, just like many a priest that abuse boys for years yet never are put in a position to threat them to keep quiet.

Many deaths followed by cover-ups weren't planned or intended. Someone can get unconscious after being strangled by 2 to 10 seconds. That could be an unplanned act of violence that leads the perpetrator to be in even deeper troubles when the kid regains consciousness.

 

[lebvidox]

This. Also Andrew was a young teenager at the time. He had probably planned this trip at least a little bit in advance and probably had not realised or planned for being asked for a return. He really might not have known about return tickets being cheaper than 2 singles, wasn't expecting it and was also likely anxious about being obviously of school age buying a ticket on a school day. If he was rushed and anxious and wanted to end the conversation with ticket office staff asap, his behaviour makes sense. Plus as you say we don't really know about how this conversation really happened.

Yes. Many key details in this case are taken as facts despite not being possibly confirmed, and LE isn't t issuing statements, so we're left with what the family told the press over the years.

 

[Konstantin]

Yes. Many key details in this case are taken as facts despite not being possibly confirmed, and LE isn't t issuing statements, so we're left with what the family told the press over the years.

And what the family has told the press is often taken as 100% rock solid truth -- e.g. "Andrew did not use a mobile phone" -- even though his family cannot possibly have known whether he had a mobile phone that he kept secret from them, just like he kept secret whatever his London plans were.

Sure, the police checked the school computers and could not find that Andrew had used them but let's be honest, that does not mean Andrew had not used them.

Andrew, like many teenagers, had parts of his life he kept secret from his family. So we have no idea what motivated him or really what he was like or what he was experiencing at the time or even really who his contacts might have been. It's likely that LE know more than they are letting on, as is the norm, and that is likely what led to the arrests a couple of years ago, even if those did not result in charges. The arrests did not come out of nowhere. There is more to Andrew's story than has been made public.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

If only we could hear from his group of school friends. He was said to have a few he hung out with. They could shed light on so many things. Whether they used the school computers together, did they know of Andrew having email or entering chat rooms, what they now think as adults in hindsight -- was he depressed, lonely, being teased or bullied, possibly meeting someone, etc?