UK UK - Andrew Gosden, 14, Doncaster, South Yorks, 14 Sep 2007 #2

[warp3dwing]

What in the ChatGPT is going on here?

 

[matchaoatmilk]

Im not even going for "his school should have done things differently" in the context of that day and Andrew cause apparently whole system wasnt well thought through and that one person responsible for calling would probably get in trouble for making persistent calls about each absent student if that wasnt clearly stated as expected of them.

Its just that it got made into such a big deal like ruined attendance, not even a note left for parents, not caring that they will be horrified when school will call them... like it certainly means A LOT while in reality it could be not ruined at all + no reason to consider that parents actually will be notified + plan to came back or call home before they will notice.

And im super frustrated with myself. Ive probably first heard about Andrew 15+ years ago and each time something reminded me of him i was considering possible suicide cause no returning ticket or a ride back by car... but not once that he could be heading somewhere else and London was just where he switched train for a bus & no return ticket cause no plan of going back same way.
Not that its super probable or anything but... possible, mondain, simple explanation. People probably do that thousands on thousands times more often than buying one way ticked cause going somewhere with a plan to commit suicide.

I feel like a lot of people are over intellectualizing Andrew by projecting their own panic onto him. Like they are imagining what they would feel if they skipped school once and then reverse engineering a motive. That is not how real life works and it definitely is not how fourteen year olds think. I am a millennial and when Andrew went missing my life was already objectively bad. My dad had died suddenly the year before. No warning. No slow goodbye. Just gone. I was also getting bullied hard at school and most of my friends drifted away because people do not know how to exist around grief. It was lonely and destabilizing. And I am saying this clearly. Even in that state suicide never crossed my mind. Pain does not automatically flip a switch that makes someone want to die and it is wild how often people assume that in this case.

I also grew up in a tiny town. Like three hundred people tiny. If I did not show up to school the office would have called my parents almost immediately. Not because of attendance awards or discipline but because absence meant something was wrong. That is where the culture gap shows up. England sounds extremely strict about school attendance on paper. Fines. Letters. Legal threats. But that strictness is about compliance not care. Parents can get fined hundreds of pounds just for taking their kid out of school for a week. Yet when a kid actually does not show up unexpectedly the system back then was not built to treat that as urgent. It is rigid and weirdly passive at the same time.
There is also this idea floating around that Andrew would have believed missing one day permanently ruined his future. That does not really track. Authorized absences existed. Parents could excuse things retroactively. One missed day was not a life ending event. And more importantly real life does not work the way people think it does when they turn school into mythology. I graduated high school with a two point five GPA and still ended up at Yale and Juilliard. That is not a flex. It is proof that paths are nonlinear and that kids do not actually experience their lives as a single fragile thread that snaps if they mess up once.

When you look at the theories one by one none of them really lock into place. Suicide does not match his behavior or the logistics. Running away collapses when you look at money documents and the total absence of any later trace. Accidental death does not work in a city like London where bodies are found and identified. Grooming or third party involvement explains more but even that only works if evidence exists somewhere and never surfaced publicly. Every theory breaks. That is why this case never settles into something neat.

What feels hardest for people to accept is that this was not a dramatic symbolic act about attendance or grades or pressure. It was a quiet kid moving through a system that runs on assumptions. That good students are fine. That absence can be explained later. That tomorrow always exists. The failure here is not one rule or one person. It is that the system was never designed to notice someone like Andrew in real time.

 

[vagab0nd]

Which assumptions do you think would need to be supported by behavior? Suicide isn't predictable, because there often are no real signs, even in retrospect, baffling as that is to their loved-ones. So IMO it has to remain a possibility that's considered, even if not high on the list.

I get that suicide can’t be totally ruled out and that it often comes without clear signs, but in Andrew’s case the behaviors we actually see don’t really line up with what you’d expect from someone heading toward that kind of finality. He wasn’t isolating himself, he didn’t give away possessions, he didn’t leave notes, and he acted in practical ways—taking his wallet, keys, PSP, and withdrawing money—like someone moving into the world rather than leaving it behind. Emotion and expression matter too, and from everything we know Andrew didn’t show the kind of narrowing of focus or despair that typically precedes suicide, even if it’s subtle or internal. Teens often express distress in ways that can be quiet or misunderstood, but there’s usually some signal in choice, tone, or routine, and Andrew’s choices that day suggest openness and curiosity rather than withdrawal or finality. That doesn’t make suicide impossible, but it makes it less plausible than theories that account for his behavior, decisions, and the environment he was moving through.

 

[ekardh]

I get that suicide can’t be totally ruled out and that it often comes without clear signs, but in Andrew’s case the behaviors we actually see don’t really line up with what you’d expect from someone heading toward that kind of finality. He wasn’t isolating himself, he didn’t give away possessions, he didn’t leave notes, and he acted in practical ways—taking his wallet, keys, PSP, and withdrawing money—like someone moving into the world rather than leaving it behind. Emotion and expression matter too, and from everything we know Andrew didn’t show the kind of narrowing of focus or despair that typically precedes suicide, even if it’s subtle or internal. Teens often express distress in ways that can be quiet or misunderstood, but there’s usually some signal in choice, tone, or routine, and Andrew’s choices that day suggest openness and curiosity rather than withdrawal or finality. That doesn’t make suicide impossible, but it makes it less plausible than theories that account for his behavior, decisions, and the environment he was moving through.

Thank you, ChatGPT.

 

[beubeubeu]

Which assumptions do you think would need to be supported by behavior? Suicide isn't predictable, because there often are no real signs, even in retrospect, baffling as that is to their loved-ones. So IMO it has to remain a possibility that's considered, even if not high on the list.

More often than not it is predictable and doesnt come out of the blue.
May come out of the blue to the closest people, cause of the put up facade that went on cause the person thought that theyre gonna make it somehow and no need to worry family - then the issues grow and so the wall that divides people.
BUT then there is still a lot "visible" in handsight. Like not really something that would be seen as a warning at the time it happened, but in retrospection things start adding up. Not to the level of family/friends concluding that oh, yup, totally makes sense obviously, but some warning signs are visible (in handsight).
It is a possibility, sure, of course. Nothing rules out the possibility of it.
But not much is ruling it in. He went somewhere, hasnt come back, whole world failed to track him despite of the fact he hasnt disappeared in the middle of nowhere but in London, where cams are everywhere.
Its a possibility the moment anyone goes to the bathroom that they may just went there to kill themselves. But the probability of that aint high.

 

[beubeubeu]

I feel like a lot of people are over intellectualizing Andrew by projecting their own panic onto him. Like they are imagining what they would feel if they skipped school once and then reverse engineering a motive. That is not how real life works and it definitely is not how fourteen year olds think. I am a millennial and when Andrew went missing my life was already objectively bad. My dad had died suddenly the year before. No warning. No slow goodbye. Just gone. I was also getting bullied hard at school and most of my friends drifted away because people do not know how to exist around grief. It was lonely and destabilizing. And I am saying this clearly. Even in that state suicide never crossed my mind. Pain does not automatically flip a switch that makes someone want to die and it is wild how often people assume that in this case.

Like for real, I cant recall one single example of suicide that came out of the blue for EVERYONE and STAYED like that even after it happened. Like not one. So I dont know how often it really happens. Especially with kids.

I can get how someone who ends up completely lonely, no fam, no friends, not close with neighbors, not a part of any religious community, not even a rich history of years long involvement in stamp collecting forum online and circumstances like that - then of course. People around may be completely shocked and unable to comprehend how this person who appeared fine while they were occasionally chatting could be going through something so horrific that it led them to take their life.

And I can get how someone who HAS loving family, friends, even close ties with community may hide their struggles in a way that nobody connects the dots before the worst happens.
But then there is handsight. Then these people can go back and see how this, this and that WAS likely a sign that something is terribly bad, but it got missed, misinterpreted and so on.
There are tracks, proofs, hints, signs left. Thats almost always a result of immense struggle, immense troubles, suffering or/and mental issues and as all that persons possesions and all memories of people around them get confronted like they never were before... and then you see that things indeed WERE going wrong.

I dont know. Maybe it really happens but three people I kinda knew growing up + my best friend's dad committed suicide and I was shocked... and also not really. I couldnt tell that it was that bad as they were still with us, but then more came out, and... wasnt that shocking anymore that they couldnt bear.
Then... just more and more of that as I worked with people who were going through traumatic life events. Almost always people knew its bad, they just havent realized its THAT bad - or they learned what was going on after the fact.

Im just scared of the risk. Cause wrong assumption of suicidex puts family&friends in such immense guilt and loop of overthinking what could they do differently... or leaves murderer free&unbothered.

There is also this idea floating around that Andrew would have believed missing one day permanently ruined his future. That does not really track. Authorized absences existed. Parents could excuse things retroactively. One missed day was not a life ending event. And more importantly real life does not work the way people think it does when they turn school into mythology. I graduated high school with a two point five GPA and still ended up at Yale and Juilliard. That is not a flex. It is proof that paths are nonlinear and that kids do not actually experience their lives as a single fragile thread that snaps if they mess up once.

People are different and kids are different. It is possible that tiny failure could grow in somebodys head to the level of life ruining event, especially if encouraged by more and more pressure.
But... there was no failure, tiny or big in Andrew's education. No skipped school before. So its kinda like... considering that he felt that he has to committ suicide, cause no other option, his future ruined because he skipped school and went to London to committ suicide cause he skipped school? It doesnt make any sense. Other factors have to be considered, but if other factors, then NOT that one day absence.

When you look at the theories one by one none of them really lock into place. Suicide does not match his behavior or the logistics. Running away collapses when you look at money documents and the total absence of any later trace. Accidental death does not work in a city like London where bodies are found and identified. Grooming or third party involvement explains more but even that only works if evidence exists somewhere and never surfaced publicly. Every theory breaks. That is why this case never settles into something neat.

Well... even that PSP theory doesnt make that much sense.
If he had 220pounds in his account + 100 in his room he could easily buy that PSP.
Why not buy it in Doncaster? It surely was available there. Internet says it was possible to purchase even on 14th.
No difference from London. The only difference would be if he went there for the midnight launch, but he was already 13 hours late for that as he arrived.
And thats less than 2 miles walk from Kings Cross to the biggest PSP stores on Oxford Street. Broad daylight yet it doesnt seem like he made it there at all cause no surveillance from there.
Aaand why no returning ticket if it was just to maybe still get on some launching events?

What feels hardest for people to accept is that this was not a dramatic symbolic act about attendance or grades or pressure. It was a quiet kid moving through a system that runs on assumptions. That good students are fine. That absence can be explained later. That tomorrow always exists. The failure here is not one rule or one person. It is that the system was never designed to notice someone like Andrew in real time.

Oh yeah, totally.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

I cant recall one single example of suicide that came out of the blue for EVERYONE and STAYED like that even after it happened.

Well I'll just say while I think abduction is more likely, I also think Andrew was a deeply feeling kid, who maybe (even likely) was being bullied/teased/excluded by some peers and although he did not seem depressed to those around him, he did listen to intense music (which I know is common), did have some secrets (also common), and was socially withdrawing. So I think he could have rather spontaneously felt difficult feelings while travelling and...?

(My thoughts may be biased today as I just read some possible bad news about a currently missing teen in New York, thought to have gone to meet someone from online but now being said was last seen on a bridge.)

 

[Moonstrawbs]

But history father always took him to any and all gigs he wanted to see. He also didn't have ID on him. Why would he go to this one gig behind his parents back and without ID? You need ID to enter most gig venues.

Back then I went to a lot of gigs especially around 2008 time and I never once brought ID with me. I don't even recall being asked for it so back then it was different, unless it depends on the area etc. jmo