UK UK - Andrew Gosden, 14, Doncaster, South Yorks, 14 Sep 2007 #2

[beubeubeu]

To be fair, there is a huge difference between authorities in America being really motivated to get forensic information about these school shooters and the police who were initially investigating Andrew's case, who were more interested in interrogating his family than in searching thoroughly for him. IMO.

Its one thing to focus on family and make sure theyre not the one's responsible as the disappearance of a child just happened. BUT it took them well over two weeks from the point when they got info from the ticket lady and found Andrew on King's Cross surveillance to made attempts on different surveillance in the area.

I don’t know if this has previously been brought up, but I wonder if Andrew was threatened by an adult that was preying on him. Someone he knew and had contact with in his life. This person may have told him to miss school and go to London to meet him. He may have told him that if he didn’t, he would hurt his family, etc. That would explain why Andrew was willing to ruin his perfect attendance record, why he didn’t tell his parents. I wonder if police looked in to who in Andrew’s life missed work that day or was unaccounted for that day. It could even have been a teacher or someone who worked at his school. A neighbor, someone from church. Even an acquaintance. Maybe even related to why he didn’t want to ride the bus. This person could have met up with Andrew and then harmed him. This person may have a 2nd residence or have family with a home he had access to. A place where he was able to take Andrew to and harm him.

I wondered about it few pages back so I highely doubt it wasnt brought up before, but well... doesnt seem like it was mentioned in any official coverage that oh, part of the bizareness is that none in the Andrew and people's close to Andrew's circles missed a day in school/work on 14th.
Could be also interesting if other kids at school did or didnt have such sudden unexplained absence history. But that would probably require someone coming forward and saying that oh, in June I also skipped school and went to London cause person x told me (...) but I came back home late evening, my parents worked late, we had broken phone and I told them I stayed in my room puking all day so they explained my absence.
Doesnt seem like it happened though...

 

[vagab0nd]

Really? Links to back up that UK had a major issue with people working illegally or being forced to work illegally in 2000's while discussing someone who's (MY OPINION!) repeatedly using AI to write their post for them and claiming that getting illegal job in UK was impossible?

Here you go:

British political economist, Philippe Legrain's article from 2007:
UK crackdown on illegal workers is misguided and won’t work : Philippe Legrain
Illegal Working, Migrants and Labour Exploitation in the UK
https://www.jstor.org/stable/48561050
2004, example of major disaster with 22+ illegal workers dead
Morecambe Bay cockling disaster - Wikipedia
2005, highest estimate mentioned as 570.000 people being illegally in UK - requires a link to prove that some of them were working, otherwise its just my opinion they werent living on air?
430,000 illegal immigrants in UK
Illegal immigrants working for Home Office in 2005
Illegal immigrants worked for Home Office
Example of this still going on more than 10 years later:
Man jailed for Sainsbury's illegal migrant cleaners scheme
From 2006, debate about a potential amnesty for an estimated 500k illegal workers
Amnesty offers fresh start on immigration
Employers of illegal workers failing to pay fines - article from 2010
Employers of illegal workers failing to pay fines
2015, still going on
Illegal immigration: Minister pledges crackdown on 'rogue employers'

Should I provide more? Spend few hours or organising it better? Dig for examples that what was also a struggle that some UK citizens had to struggle with if unfortunate enough that they couldnt find a legal job but had to survive so they were taking what they could get?

Andrew most likely never ended up as an illegal worker in the UK because he was a 14 year old child with no proof of identity, no national insurance number, no right to work documentation, and no realistic way to pass age or employment checks, even in informal or exploitative jobs. He withdrew a small amount of cash that would not have sustained him for long, did not take spare clothes or practical items needed to live independently, and was known to be academically gifted, risk averse, and closely attached to his family, which makes a long term hidden working life extremely unlikely. In addition, child labour in the UK even in illegal contexts still tends to involve traceable networks such as family, gangs, or care exploitation, none of which have ever surfaced in his case despite extensive publicity, suggesting that the scenario of him quietly surviving as an undocumented worker does not fit either the practical realities or the known facts of his disappearance.

 

[wtiger]

guys - just take a look at the photos!

does he look like someone who would fit into a working environment??
in all pictures i've seen he is clearly a child and not one who could pass for being much older than he was,

the idea of him working illicitly is just fanciful in my opinion

 

[beubeubeu]

guys - just take a look at the photos!

does he look like someone who would fit into a working environment??
in all pictures i've seen he is clearly a child and not one who could pass for being much older than he was,

the idea of him working illicitly is just fanciful in my opinion

No, he does not look like he would fit into working environment.
The way he disappeared doesnt look like he was leaving home to start new life in hiding either.
And I think we all mostly agree that him still being alive is highely unlikely. Very highely unlikely.
But thats because of his living/family circumstances from the time he went missing, cause of his age, cause of the circumstances of his disappearance - this is what makes it highely unlikely.
Not cause it is or was impossible to get and keep illegal job in UK or live completely under the radar for almost 20 years. That wouldnt be easy life to live, but it was and is possible.

If some very unlikely factors that we dont know came to play, I personally would see that as maybe possible in case of being held hostage for significant amount of time by someone who could pose a threat to his family or him still, even years later, escaping from that later and with some reason not feeling mentally capable of taking that risk (real or feared real)... and staying hidden it would be theoretically possible for him to work illegally and support himself somehow, for years.
But that would almost certainly require him to get some significant help from someone... so it just keeps getting more and more improbable.

In the same time, if it was totally thoroughly checked and literally no Andrew's online activity was found, if his phone number's history was checked then - adding to that the fact that his family describes him as really not focused on mondain stuff, shy, intorverted, homebuddy who hasnt showed up at any of the "predictable" locations in London that we know of...
That speaks strongly against his disappearance being wrong-place, wrong-time kine of scenario and indicates that Andrew's reason to go to London was related to someone known to him in real world...
That would be (my opinion, my out-of-the-blue-estimate) like 99% chance that he didnt live long past the time he was last seen. Remaining 1% could result in some Stockholm syndrome relationship formed, possibly induced on him by being held hostage, maybe fed drugs and believing that he cant go back home.
Till we dont know for sure its a possibility, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[vagab0nd]

V

No, he does not look like he would fit into working environment.
The way he disappeared doesnt look like he was leaving home to start new life in hiding either.
And I think we all mostly agree that him still being alive is highely unlikely. Very highely unlikely.
But thats because of his living/family circumstances from the time he went missing, cause of his age, cause of the circumstances of his disappearance - this is what makes it highely unlikely.
Not cause it is or was impossible to get and keep illegal job in UK or live completely under the radar for almost 20 years. That wouldnt be easy life to live, but it was and is possible.

If some very unlikely factors that we dont know came to play, I personally would see that as maybe possible in case of being held hostage for significant amount of time by someone who could pose a threat to his family or him still, even years later, escaping from that later and with some reason not feeling mentally capable of taking that risk (real or feared real)... and staying hidden it would be theoretically possible for him to work illegally and support himself somehow, for years.
But that would almost certainly require him to get some significant help from someone... so it just keeps getting more and more improbable.

In the same time, if it was totally thoroughly checked and literally no Andrew's online activity was found, if his phone number's history was checked then - adding to that the fact that his family describes him as really not focused on mondain stuff, shy, intorverted, homebuddy who hasnt showed up at any of the "predictable" locations in London that we know of...
That speaks strongly against his disappearance being wrong-place, wrong-time kine of scenario and indicates that Andrew's reason to go to London was related to someone known to him in real world...
That would be (my opinion, my out-of-the-blue-estimate) like 99% chance that he didnt live long past the time he was last seen. Remaining 1% could result in some Stockholm syndrome relationship formed, possibly induced on him by being held hostage, maybe fed drugs and believing that he cant go back home.
Till we dont know for sure its a possibility, nothing more, nothing less.

I still don't think its possible for him to have lived under the radar. Illegals have been hired at my work and found out and fired and we were fined a shite ton per person. It's unlikely he'd last long. He's probably dead somewhere that's very well hidden. That could be someone's garden or in a body of water or somewhere not obvious. We will never know until we get rmore clues.

 

[SilentHill]

Really? Links to back up that UK had a major issue with people working illegally or being forced to work illegally in 2000's while discussing someone who's (MY OPINION!) repeatedly using AI to write their post for them and claiming that getting illegal job in UK was impossible?

Here you go:

British political economist, Philippe Legrain's article from 2007:
UK crackdown on illegal workers is misguided and won’t work : Philippe Legrain
Illegal Working, Migrants and Labour Exploitation in the UK
https://www.jstor.org/stable/48561050
2004, example of major disaster with 22+ illegal workers dead
Morecambe Bay cockling disaster - Wikipedia
2005, highest estimate mentioned as 570.000 people being illegally in UK - requires a link to prove that some of them were working, otherwise its just my opinion they werent living on air?
430,000 illegal immigrants in UK
Illegal immigrants working for Home Office in 2005
Illegal immigrants worked for Home Office
Example of this still going on more than 10 years later:
Man jailed for Sainsbury's illegal migrant cleaners scheme
From 2006, debate about a potential amnesty for an estimated 500k illegal workers
Amnesty offers fresh start on immigration
Employers of illegal workers failing to pay fines - article from 2010
Employers of illegal workers failing to pay fines
2015, still going on
Illegal immigration: Minister pledges crackdown on 'rogue employers'

Should I provide more? Spend few hours or organising it better? Dig for examples that what was also a struggle that some UK citizens had to struggle with if unfortunate enough that they couldnt find a legal job but had to survive so they were taking what they could get?

Why are you so passive aggressive? I asked for links which isn't an odd thing to do on this site. No reason to attack other posters in your response to me either. IMO your posts are rambling and I imagine your quite difficult to converse with.

 

[submarine7]

If it was in its infancy then why did American police find anything and everything online for the 1999 Columbine killers? They found GeoCities cites and all sorts of things. A lot of which has been screenshotted or preserved so you can still see it on acolumbinesite I think it's called. There have been countless other cases pre-2007 in the US and EU where internet history has been found for all sorts of cases. Why couldn't they find Andrew's? Doesn't make sense. I'm inclined to heavily believe he didn't have one.

The US had the best of the best working on the Columbine case, but that wasn't the case for Andrew. Plus, LE and FBI had access to the Columbine shooters devices and they openly had online lives.

What's your theory? I can't think of anything else that fits.

 

[vagab0nd]

The US had the best of the best working on the Columbine case, but that wasn't the case for Andrew. Plus, LE and FBI had access to the Columbine shooters devices and they openly had online lives.

What's your theory? I can't think of anything else that fits.

I hear you on the resources thing but I still think the total lack of a digital footprint is the biggest red flag. I had a website back in 2015 with literally zero followers and it still ended up on the Wayback Machine. The internet is permanent even when you dont want it to be. If he was living some secret life online in 2007 there would be a trace of it somewhere like ISP logs or old forum caches.

My husband was born right around the same time as Andrew and grew up near London and he didnt even have social media until his 20s. It just wasnt as universal back then. Also my husband and sister in law were both in NAGTY and they say it was just a boring normal school program. They never had alone time with adults and no one stayed in touch. I have seen the private Facebook group for Andrews specific NAGTY year and the professors there seem genuinely devastated not like they are playing dumb. No evidence suggests grooming or having a girlfriend or being gay. LE is the one who suggested possibly gay. Think of 9/11. That day was bright and sunny. We had no idea what horrors awaited. I'm sure Andrew walked home because of a similar type of day. My husband did it a few times at his age.

When you watch the CCTV he doesnt look like someone meeting a predator. He looks like a kid who doesnt have Google Maps because it didnt exist yet. If you were in London in 2007 you had to use paper maps or printed directions or ask people. Being 14 on a train alone is totally normal in the UK too. My husband was taking long train trips at a super young age. I think he just went for a Ferris Bueller day and something 0.01% unlikely happened. I honestly think that graffiti in the Waterloo bathroom was the truth.

 

[submarine7]

I hear you on the resources thing but I still think the total lack of a digital footprint is the biggest red flag. I had a website back in 2015 with literally zero followers and it still ended up on the Wayback Machine. The internet is permanent even when you dont want it to be. If he was living some secret life online in 2007 there would be a trace of it somewhere like ISP logs or old forum caches.

My husband was born right around the same time as Andrew and grew up near London and he didnt even have social media until his 20s. It just wasnt as universal back then. Also my husband and sister in law were both in NAGTY and they say it was just a boring normal school program. They never had alone time with adults and no one stayed in touch. I have seen the private Facebook group for Andrews specific NAGTY year and the professors there seem genuinely devastated not like they are playing dumb. No evidence suggests grooming or having a girlfriend or being gay. LE is the one who suggested possibly gay. Think of 9/11. That day was bright and sunny. We had no idea what horrors awaited. I'm sure Andrew walked home because of a similar type of day. My husband did it a few times at his age.

When you watch the CCTV he doesnt look like someone meeting a predator. He looks like a kid who doesnt have Google Maps because it didnt exist yet. If you were in London in 2007 you had to use paper maps or printed directions or ask people. Being 14 on a train alone is totally normal in the UK too. My husband was taking long train trips at a super young age. I think he just went for a Ferris Bueller day and something 0.01% unlikely happened. I honestly think that graffiti in the Waterloo bathroom was the truth.

I hope they investigate that message and it leads somewhere. It's a very specific message and there are many of these stores but it warrants investigation.

It's possible he simply took off for fun and met with the wrong types, but I always lean away from that because there were so few sightings. However, him disliking his new school and the reported bullying might suggest he did this.

 

[vagab0nd]

I hope they investigate that message and it leads somewhere. It's a very specific message and there are many of these stores but it warrants investigation.

It's possible he simply took off for fun and met with the wrong types, but I always lean away from that because there were so few sightings. However, him disliking his new school and the reported bullying might suggest he did this.

There's no concrete evidence he was bullied. Kids talk and kids lie. I remember 11 year old girls at my school telling me on AOL they weren't virgins and that I was a loser for still being one. Were they having sex? Maybe. Maybe not. People make up all types of bull. If I went missing at 14 nobody would come forward and say I was bullied. Even my own friends who I spent 24/7 with didn't have a clue. They knew every bit of my life but the bullying. I just don't buy it. How would they have bullied him? I was bullied online and never in actual school. I did varsity sports with my bullies and they never attacked me physically. It was always emotional like calling me ugly or fat or telling me to end myself. They never asked for my mobile so the bullying was only done online. I told a trusted teacher who was an ex-army general and she told me that bullies are everywhere so just deal with it. What does that even mean? I assume she would come forward with this info if I had gone missing. His teachers were interviewed and nothing.

 

[matchaoatmilk]

I hope they investigate that message and it leads somewhere. It's a very specific message and there are many of these stores but it warrants investigation.

It's possible he simply took off for fun and met with the wrong types, but I always lean away from that because there were so few sightings. However, him disliking his new school and the reported bullying might suggest he did this.

If teachers see bullying happening in the classroom or hallway then they tell the kids to break it up. They intervene. Why didn't they for Andrew? Doesn't make sense.

 

[matchaoatmilk]

There's no concrete evidence he was bullied. Kids talk and kids lie. I remember 11 year old girls at my school telling me on AOL they weren't virgins and that I was a loser for still being one. Were they having sex? Maybe. Maybe not. People make up all types of bull. If I went missing at 14 nobody would come forward and say I was bullied. Even my own friends who I spent 24/7 with didn't have a clue. They knew every bit of my life but the bullying. I just don't buy it. How would they have bullied him? I was bullied online and never in actual school. I did varsity sports with my bullies and they never attacked me physically. It was always emotional like calling me ugly or fat or telling me to end myself. They never asked for my mobile so the bullying was only done online. I told a trusted teacher who was an ex-army general and she told me that bullies are everywhere so just deal with it. What does that even mean? I assume she would come forward with this info if I had gone missing. His teachers were interviewed and nothing.

A woman I went to school with for 12 years died years ago in lockdown from a very specific type of ovarian cancer. There was a public guestbook online for the obituary. Someone wrote a comment about feck blank because she stole my book in year 4 and I got in trouble for it. I was like who tf holds grudges like that but also I knew that the person who wrote the comments stole the dead woman's book and never owned up to it. Some kids like to say nonsense. Maybe his classmates felt cool for bragging about fake bullying? It just doesn't add up. His close friends would at least come forward and say what he was like and what school was like. My mates still go on about their time at private grammar school. I know people who were murdered at random and I used to talk about them all the time before I deleted Facebook/twitter/whatever.

 

[vagab0nd]

If teachers see bullying happening in the classroom or hallway then they tell the kids to break it up. They intervene. Why didn't they for Andrew? Doesn't make sense.

Are you sure that's not just a movie trope? I've never witnessed anyone being bullied physically in school. Not shoved in lockers or punched or walked into.

 

[Sarahlou]

Are you sure that's not just a movie trope? I've never witnessed anyone being bullied physically in school. Not shoved in lockers or punched or walked into.

Oh it happens. I witnessed it at school and my nephew has experienced similar. A lot of bullying isn't seen or reported though.

 

[vagab0nd]

A woman I went to school with for 12 years died years ago in lockdown from a very specific type of ovarian cancer. There was a public guestbook online for the obituary. Someone wrote a comment about feck blank because she stole my book in year 4 and I got in trouble for it. I was like who tf holds grudges like that but also I knew that the person who wrote the comments stole the dead woman's book and never owned up to it. Some kids like to say nonsense. Maybe his classmates felt cool for bragging about fake bullying? It just doesn't add up. His close friends would at least come forward and say what he was like and what school was like. My mates still go on about their time at private grammar school. I know people who were murdered at random and I used to talk about them all the time before I deleted Facebook/twitter/whatever.

My friend was murdered in lockdown and the police investigation found his killer had killed over 90+ people in the UK. This man is on trial next year for the murder of hundreds in different countries (not just the UK). I used to actively post comments on Reddit about my friend and what he was like and how I think the man deserves the death penalty despite it not being a thing in his home country. I would not shut up about it. I didn't talk for clout. I talked because my friend was never bullied and had no mental health issues and was happily married with children. I wanted people to know the truth. Strangers and trolls bullied me so I gave up talking about it. I can imagine Andrew's friends and classmates don't want to deal with backlash, so I don't really know. Maybe he was bullied. We don't know. It just seems odd given that my husband said he never witnessed physical abuse in his school and bullying was dealt with quite seriously. One kid was even expelled for some minor bullying.