Deceased/Not Found UK - April Jones, 5, Machynlleth, Wales, 1 Oct 2012 #5 *M. Bridger guilty*

[raithjames]

no worries just trying to establish if the child and or parents would have known mb

Try fb friends surname hearne article names child in the express.

 

[greenpalm]

Which first names? I'm confused now. A lot of posters have a good grasp of who all the players are and it would be good to have it all in one place but I wouldn't know how to do that or where to put it.

Rhys & Elaine are the first names of ED's parents (who I cannot name because she is a minor) We do not know the first names of MH's parents (who I also cannot name because she, too, is a minor)

Done, though i dontget the rule if the names are out in public in msm which is where i got it from

Most of the media reports have removed the child's name as she will be a witness in the trial. That report probably should have removed her name aswell but hasn't yet.

I believe it's a general rule on here not to name minors except if they are the victim, so it's okay to name April but not other children. That's why initials are used.

All the above AFAIK

The reason for the rule is because every single time a name is typed out it becomes one more hit for the search engines when someone goes looking for that minor child who will eventually grow up into an adult. If we use initials, it doesn't add to the avalanche of times this minor child's name will be out on the internet and searchable, for all of posterity, by everyone who ever chooses to look, including future employers, dates, in-laws, or creepy stalkers. Better to minimize the exposure.

************************************************************

They must have. Didn't the press say they were playing with Bridger's children, or did I get that wrong?

Yes, there was a large group of children who were all playing together. I still don't think there's any absolutely guarantee that the children in the estate knew every single one of each other's parents. My children certainly don't know every adult… even on our street. I think it's possible, but certainly not something we can assume. Besides which…clearly she DID NOT know the person who drove away with April or she would have called him by name. So, no, again, I repeat, given the limited information we do have, she must not have known Mark Bridger. If she had, the unfolding of events would have been quite different.

the whole point was trying to figure out if the child knew MB,
knowing who the parents are might help thats all, and whether they idd him, quoting from the bible?? lets keep religion out of this lol, best to keep things simple
See you all tomorrow, god bless little april and her searchers

OK but we are left with the question if the child who was with AJ knew MB or not

I think it is safe to assume that unless the child had only just moved onto the estate she would have known who Bridger was. Bridger did visit his children, did attend the parents evening and by all accounts slept with a lot of women on that estate.

I don't think it's safe to assume anything of the kind, particularly given the information we have about their encounter, which suggests just the opposite: that in fact she did NOT know him. If she had known him she would have said, "April got into Mark Bridger's car." or "Mr. Bridger's car" or "xxxx & xxxx's dad's car." but she didn't say that did she? And furthermore, she would NOT have pointed out that when she begged April not to get in the car, April said, "It's okay, I know them." Because she would have also recognized him, and would have had no reason (that we know of) to beg her not to go with a familiar person. Clearly she could NOT have known him. At least according to the information we have, which is all we have to build on.

Otherwise, we can only speculate that the information we have about what the witness said is just grossly mistaken - in which case we have nothing and are guessing blindly in the dark, spinning our wheels and all of this is a complete waste of time (which frankly it may well be) All we can realistically do is start with what's in the media - and in this case, it's clear from what they have reported that MH, the 7 year old witness, April's best friend, did NOT know MB.

I don't think it's that hard to believe that she might not have known him, certainly not by name. I don't know everyone in my neighborhood. There are a group of about 6 children who play along the sidewalks and sometimes in the street each evening, about two blocks up. I slow down for them when I dive by and even smile and wave, but I have no idea what their names are and I never see their dads, if they even have them. I occasionally see the moms. My children may not even know those kids exist. There are scads of children who walk by my house every morning and every afternoon on their way to the elementary school about 3 blocks away. I don't know a single name. We know a couple of a families because they are in my daughter's dance class or scout troop. I know which houses are theirs, but I've never laid eyes on any of their dads, don't even know the dad's names.

 

[Amber34]

<snipped for space>

Yes, there was a large group of children who were all playing together. I still don't think there's any absolutely guarantee that the children in the estate knew every single one of each other's parents. My children certainly don't know every adult&#8230; even on our street. I think it's possible, but certainly not something we can assume. Besides which&#8230;clearly she DID NOT know the person who drove away with April or she would have called him by name. So, no, again, I repeat, given the limited information we do have, she must not have known Mark Bridger. If she had, the unfolding of events would have been quite different.

I don't think it's safe to assume anything of the kind, particularly given the information we have about their encounter, which suggests just the opposite: that in fact she did NOT know him. If she had known him she would have said, "April got into Mark Bridger's car." or "Mr. Brider's car" or "xxxx & xxxx's dad's car." but she didn't say that did she? And furthermore, she would NOT have pointed out that when she begged April not to get in the car, April said, "It's okay, I know them." Because she would have also recognized him, and would have had no reason (that we know of) to beg her not to go with a familiar person. Clearly she could NOT have known him. At least according to the information we have, which is all we have to build on.

Otherwise, we can only speculate that the information we have about what the witness said is just grossly mistaken - in which case we have nothing and are guessing blindly in the dark, spinning our wheels and all of this is a complete waste of time (which frankly it may well be) All we can realistically do is start with what's in the media - and in this case, it's clear from what they have reported that MH, the 7 year old witness, April's best friend, did NOT know MB.

I don't think it's that hard to believe that she might not have known him, certainly not by name. I don't know everyone in my neighborhood. There are a group of about 6 children who play along the sidewalks and sometimes in the street each evening, about two blocks up. I slow down for them when I dive by and even smile and wave, but I have no idea what their names are and I never see their dads, if they even have them. I occasionally see the moms. My children may not even know those kids exist. There are scads of children who walk by my house every morning and every afternoon on their way to the elementary school about 3 blocks away. I don't know a single name. We know a couple of a families because they are in my daughter's dance class or scout troop. I know which houses are theirs, but I've never laid eyes on any of their dads, don't even know the dad's names.

Do you think we can definitively say she did not know him? I think it might be safer to say she did not recognise him. We don't know where the girls were standing in relation to one another or the vehicle. If MH was farther away from the vehicle than April there is a good chance the abductor's face would be in shadow, especially if the vehicle was facing to the right and they opened the passenger door toward the girls. The abductor may have swung the door open then shrunk back in their seat, into the shadows.

We already know the vehicle description was at best, sketchy. Perhaps this indicates the distance from the vehicle MH was standing rather than her lack of recognition because she had never seen either the driver or the vehicle before.

With regard to not knowing everyone on the estate, I would be surprised if they didn't. It's a tiny estate, 114 houses (looked it up on postcode finder, royalmail.com) and if you have a look at Googlemaps you'll see it is laid out in a very sociable manner, as is common on council estates. All the kids would play out (and have spats) together and would at least recognise the parents, even if they couldn't name them, eg that's Joe Bloggs mum/dad. Believe me, I know this and have lived this.

In short, the chances of MH not knowing MB are slim, with the chances of not being able to clearly see the vehicle or driver due to the fading light being far greater.

JMO

 

[greenpalm]

Do you think we can definitively say she did not know him?

No, I don't, and I didn't. What I said was we can't definitively say that she did either (which is the point Paddywhack was trying to make - that we know FOR CERTAIN that she knew him). As examples, here are some of my quotes from the post to which you are responding. I've added a bit of red colored text to emphasize my lack of certainty:

I don't think it's safe to assume anything of the kind, particularly given the information we have about their encounter, which suggests just the opposite: that in fact she did NOT know him.

I still don't think there's any absolutely guarantee that the children in the estate knew every single one of each other's parents.

I don't think it's that hard to believe that she might not have known him, certainly not by name.

I think it might be safer to say she did not recognise him.

I don't know if I'd even say that much with certainty.

We don't know where the girls were standing in relation to one another or the vehicle. If MH was farther away from the vehicle than April there is a good chance the abductor's face would be in shadow, especially if the vehicle was facing to the right and they opened the passenger door toward the girls. The abductor may have swung the door open then shrunk back in their seat, into the shadows.

We already know the vehicle description was at best, sketchy. Perhaps this indicates the distance from the vehicle MH was standing rather than her lack of recognition because she had never having seen either the driver or the vehicle before.

Yes, we are in agreement here, which is why I said, way back on post #200,

(Italics and red added upon this reply)

[perhaps] the two girls were at some distance from each other. If they were riding bikes up and down the street, the other child could have evn been quite a ways away, with her back turned for part of the encounter. If April was playing 400 yards from her home (as cited in many news sources). That's really quite a distance. If kids are out riding bikes together, it's not necessarily, or even normal for them to ride in tandem.

With regard to not knowing everyone on the estate, I would be surprised if they didn't. It's a tiny estate, 114 houses (looked it up on postcode finder, royalmail.com) and if you have a look at Googlemaps you'll see it is laid out in a very sociable manner, as is common on council estates.

I would argue that 114 is still quite a few. I live in an older sociable style neighborhood. It was built in 1919, we all have large covered front porches with rockers and porch swings, heavily shaded front yards with green space, our mail boxes are on our front porches, so the mail man must climb the steps to deliver. I know and recognize him. He's been delivering my mail for at least 9 years. But I certainly don't know 114 of my neighbors. I probably know more than the folks who live in the new developments where all the garages are attached to the back of the house on alleys and they never have to walk through their yards to say hello, but I don't know 114 of them.

All the kids would play out (and have spats) together and would at least recognise the parents, even if they couldn't name them, eg that's Joe Bloggs mum/dad. Believe me, I know this and have lived this.

And I would submit that if that is true then why didn't MH have more information about him. (Unless the point you are trying to make is that it was NOT him)
and, if that is the case then I have addressed the possibility that we cannot assume anything the media says is correct which leaves us with nothing, and we can only speculate about what forensics they found that they felt justified murder charges - if it wasn't even him. As I said:

Otherwise, we can only speculate that the information we have about what the witness said is just grossly mistaken - in which case we have nothing and are guessing blindly in the dark, spinning our wheels and all of this is a complete waste of time (which frankly it may well be)

In short, the chances of MH not knowing MB are slim, with the chances of not being able to clearly see the vehicle or driver due to the fading light being far greater.

Perhaps. However, a number of local or near local people on this thread have done anecdotal under-the-street-light-informal-studies to see how dark it would have been at the same time of evening that she vanished, and how good or bad visibility would have been, and the conclusion, at least from this small sample, has been that it wasn't that dark yet (at the time she was allegedly taken) and that the color of the vehicle didn't change all that much. It's also worth pointing out that when you open a vehicle door, and interior light comes on which would have illuminated his face.


I don't want to argue every little detail. It will exhaust us all. Really, the only point I'm trying to make here is that we can't say ANYTHING at all with certainty. The child witness, MH, may or may not have recognized him, called him by name, or even known him. He may have been at any number of locations along a long continuum of recognizabilty to her. From tight buddy to not-a-clue.

I wouldn't feel comfortable agreeing that, as Paddywhack says;

I think it is safe to assume that unless the child had only just moved onto the estate she would have known who Bridger was. Bridger did visit his children, did attend the parents evening and by all accounts slept with a lot of women on that estate.

I don't think ANYTHING is safe to assume. You may have been making the same point, not realizing I was doing just that.

We just don't KNOW, and I'm going to remain skeptical and uncertain until I do know, which means I'll point out the lack of logical conclusion when I see it.

We cannot assume that she must have known him.
Nor can we assume that she did not know him.

 

[Rutland Girl]

Your right it is disturbing they look about the correct age but very confused by what they are saying!!! It doesn't really just roll off their tongue naturally.

Agree, this is very disturbing, because I find children being interviewed (with adults clearly in the background) somewhat distasteful.

By my reckoning,(judging by the background door panel height) these girls are about 58/59 inches tall which makes me think they are 10+ years old. My 5 year old niece is 39 inches tall, she's a tall lass & takes after 'our' side of the family.

There is absolutely no way these girls are one of the final witness's to April's disappearance, the LE would not have allowed them to be interviewed by the media in any way, shape or form.

As always, just my opinion,

 

[veggiefan]

the whole point was trying to figure out if the child knew MB, knowing who the parents are might help thats all

Some reports describe the child MH as the next-door neighbour of AJ. I don't think that's any reason why she should know MB.

 

[veggiefan]

With regard to not knowing everyone on the estate, I would be surprised if they didn't. It's a tiny estate, 114 houses

I would be totally astonished if anybody at all knew everyone on the estate. I have lived in the same small cul-de-sac of 28 houses for 35 years and I still only know about half of the residents.

Some people come and go far too quickly to get to know them, especially if some of the houses are rented.

Just my opinion. I guess we're all different.

 

[LittleMissContrary]

I would argue that 114 is still quite a few. I live in an older sociable style neighborhood. It was built in 1919, we all have large covered front porches with rockers and porch swings, heavily shaded front yards with green space, our mail boxes are on our front porches, so the mail man must climb the steps to deliver. I know and recognize him. He's been delivering my mail for at least 9 years. But I certainly don't know 114 of my neighbors. I probably know more than the folks who live in the new developments where all the garages are attached to the back of the house on alleys and they never have to walk through their yards to say hello, but I don't know 114 of them.

Based upon the description you provided above, it sounds like you live in a lovely upper middle class neighborhood. The very layout of the homes, with the elevated porches, etc. are absolutely nothing like the layout of April's community. I would argue that the community is bound together in a number of subtle ways, and it is those aspects that make it likely that people were quite familiar with one another. The homes in April's community are grouped together in blocks, with only walls to separate one house from the next. I would guess that if you had a particular nasty argument with your spouse, the neighbors on both sides of you would have also heard most of the exchanges. The very way those blocks are placed around the common green areas create a small community within the estate. For these reasons I do not think your example can be used to dismiss the possibility of people on the estate knowing one another fairly well.
However, I do think it is reasonable to consider the possibility that a child may not know the names of the other childrens' parents. I recall that when I was a child, I typically addressed parents of my playmates as Mr. Duck or Mrs. Mouse, etc. Even in the case of my dearest friends, I rarely knew their parents first names. In my opinion, it is not something you worry about or spend much time thinking about as a child.

 

[Rutland Girl]

Your right it is disturbing they look about the correct age but very confused by what they are saying!!! It doesn't really just roll off their tongue naturally.

Agree, this is very disturbing, because I find children being interviewed (with adults clearly in the background) somewhat distasteful.

By my reckoning,(judging by the background door panel height) these girls are about 58/59 inches tall which makes me think they are 10+ years old. My nearly 5 year old niece (Happy Birthday for today Sweetie! Lx) is 39 inches tall, she's a tall lass & takes after 'our' side of the family.

There is absolutely no way these girls are one of the final witness's to April's disappearance, the LE would not have allowed them to be interviewed by the media in any way, shape or form.

As always, just my opinion,

 

[LegallyBrunette]

Based upon the description you provided above, it sounds like you live in a lovely upper middle class neighborhood. The very layout of the homes, with the elevated porches, etc. are absolutely nothing like the layout of April's community. I would argue that the community is bound together in a number of subtle ways, and it is those aspects that make it likely that people were quite familiar with one another. The homes in April's community are grouped together in blocks, with only walls to separate one house from the next. I would guess that if you had a particular nasty argument with your spouse, the neighbors on both sides of you would have also heard most of the exchanges. The very way those blocks are placed around the common green areas create a small community within the estate. For these reasons I do not think your example can be used to dismiss the possibility of people on the estate knowing one another fairly well.
However, I do think it is reasonable to consider the possibility that a child may not know the names of the other childrens' parents. I recall that when I was a child, I typically addressed parents of my playmates as Mr. Duck or Mrs. Mouse, etc. Even in the case of my dearest friends, I rarely knew their parents first names. In my opinion, it is not something you worry about or spend much time thinking about as a child.

I think that the fact that virtually all the main players who have been named in MSM are 'friends' on each others FB and many have photos together as well is enough to infer that their children would recognise their friends' Mummy and Daddy, even if they didn't know their name. A lot of the MSM quotes from neighbours say that the children were 'in and out of each other's houses', and that is exactly what I would expect in a small and physically close community. In the childhood of many on here it would have been the same, we referred to the parents as 'aunty' and 'uncle' though they were no relation, and that was in a suburb of detached houses on 1/4 acre blocks in a capital city, not a small community.

 

[Amber34]

I would be totally astonished if anybody at all knew everyone on the estate. I have lived in the same small cul-de-sac of 28 houses for 35 years and I still only know about half of the residents.

Some people come and go far too quickly to get to know them, especially if some of the houses are rented.

Just my opinion. I guess we're all different.

But, with all due respect and casting no aspersions, this is a council estate. Many of the mother's we have been talking about will have been brought up here and applied for their own homes on the same estate, possibly next door to other family members. Others will have had their homes handed down to them. Very few will look to move as the rent is subsidised. Yes, there are a few sold off homes, but this is an insular community, the children we are talking about are all of a similar age, there is just one primary school which is within walking distance, making a much more sociable environment.

According to MSM, there are at least 3 of MB's exes living on the estate, I would think he was fairly well known

 

[UKgirl]

Do you think we can definitively say she did not know him? I think it might be safer to say she did not recognise him. We don't know where the girls were standing in relation to one another or the vehicle. If MH was farther away from the vehicle than April there is a good chance the abductor's face would be in shadow, especially if the vehicle was facing to the right and they opened the passenger door toward the girls. The abductor may have swung the door open then shrunk back in their seat, into the shadows.

We already know the vehicle description was at best, sketchy. Perhaps this indicates the distance from the vehicle MH was standing rather than her lack of recognition because she had never seen either the driver or the vehicle before.

With regard to not knowing everyone on the estate, I would be surprised if they didn't. It's a tiny estate, 114 houses (looked it up on postcode finder, royalmail.com) and if you have a look at Googlemaps you'll see it is laid out in a very sociable manner, as is common on council estates. All the kids would play out (and have spats) together and would at least recognise the parents, even if they couldn't name them, eg that's Joe Bloggs mum/dad. Believe me, I know this and have lived this.

In short, the chances of MH not knowing MB are slim, with the chances of not being able to clearly see the vehicle or driver due to the fading light being far greater.

JMO

I am thinking that MB had only just recently purchased this vehicle, thats whay it wasnt recognised as him straight away. It would be useful to know if and when it was purchased, then we could determine that most of the kids on the estate would not have known it.

 

[LegallyBrunette]

http://.com/50888552 Insert 'vimeo' before .com

ITV Wales Press conference one week ago, Crown Prosecutor and Police.

ETA: by Salem: Conference on Vimeo Vimeo does not allow embedding, but if you click on the title "Conference" you will go straight to the Vimeo site.

 

[LegallyBrunette]

'Wales Tonight', ITV, Thurs 4 Oct. 17 minutes and well worth watching to get the feel of the whole area, MB home, search etc.

http://(vimeo).com/50778920 (remove brackets () from vimeo to view)

 

[Insp.Dots]

which neighbour though, if we know the childs name we must know the parents of that child and what if any relationship they had to MB, blood or not

They are 'just' neighbours, no relation. She lives nearer to ED than the Jones family. Mum's initials LH. There is no further background info on this other than the little girl was interviewed by specialist police for hours on the Tuesday.....
How awful for her, witness to a friends kidnap....I do hope that she gets full support throughout.

From all the reports, very soon after the kidnap, she was spoken to by VF (MB's ex) and VF then relayed 'in her own words' to the press, so we do not know exactly what was said!!

However, as VF was MB's GF up to very recently, IF the LHD was mentioned at that time, (and you have to remember there would have probably been a dozen people by then trying to work out what had taken place by then, all firing questions at MH) Perhaps she suggested MB to CJ at that point???

Who knows....we don't and probably won't til the trial!! I think that's the frustration here, we have massive bit's missing that could change the whole angle. MOO:banghead:

 

[veggiefan]

According to MSM, there are at least 3 of MB's exes living on the estate, I would think he was fairly well known

But has he ever lived on the estate? And how much involvement has he actually had with his own children who live there?

Remember, his eldest son who does live on the estate (although the "friendly locals" are trying to drive him out) said "He has never been in my life. I have only met him on a couple of occasions".

 

[Insp.Dots]

This is quite disturbing, I hope they are not witnesses.

The video cannot be embedded on here and this is the only way I can think of as a link

http:/.com/50639358

insert vimeo before the .com

WOW...not good. I can confirm though that neither are MH (child witness)

 

[LegallyBrunette]

But has he ever lived on the estate? And how much involvement has he actually had with his own children who live there?

Remember, his eldest son who does live on the estate (although the "friendly locals" are trying to drive him out) said "He has never been in my life. I have only met him on a couple of occasions".

He reportedly lived with VF who does live on the estate, her sister is AF, a close neighbour of the Jones. Previous to that he lived with another local woman CR.

 

[PADDYWHACK]

I would be totally astonished if anybody at all knew everyone on the estate. I have lived in the same small cul-de-sac of 28 houses for 35 years and I still only know about half of the residents.

Some people come and go far too quickly to get to know them, especially if some of the houses are rented.

Just my opinion. I guess we're all different.

You might not know them, but would you recognise them?

 

[PADDYWHACK]

WOW...not good. I can confirm though that neither are MH (child witness)

I really do hope that the witnesses have been put into isolation away from parents and other children. That estate looks so gossipy and tight knit that any old info could be fed to those children.