Deceased/Not Found UK - April Jones, 5, Machynlleth, Wales, 1 Oct 2012 #5 *M. Bridger guilty*

[Cherwell]

okay so maybe I should ask it this way... do you have much faith in your system of Law Enforcement?

I do in ours here in the US.

There seems to be a lack of faith in their investigation and what they have used to charge this guy. Why is that?

A relatively short time elapsed between the disappearance and the arrest, and so the public has been given very little hint of the evidence. It's plain to me that there is a great deal we don't yet know about, including information which may explain motive.

On a really shallow level, some people probably find the suspect attractive and that can cloud judgement.

 

[LegallyBrunette]

But isn't the no case to answer determined by the CPS? i.e. Once the CPS approve charging someone, it's past that stage?

Can be CPS, a 'nolle prosequi' or it can be when it comes to committal, accused or his legal rep can make submission of no case to answer, then magistrate or judge has prosecution go through evidence.

 

[jigzy]

This is gold

CONFLUENCE: River Dyfi and South Dulas, Machynlleth, Powys, Wales, UK
in River Origins, Destinations and Confluences
52° 35.465 W 003° 49.898
30U E 443663 N 5827109

Long Description:
A Conflunce of the river dyfi and the river South Dulas near a parking area to the east of Machynlleth. It is shallow and wading could be done for the more adventurous.
It rises in the small lake Creiglyn Dyfi at about 1,900 feet (580 m) above sea level, below Aran Fawddwy, flowing south to Dinas Mawddwy and Cemmaes Road, then south west past Machynlleth to Cardigan Bay at Aberdyfi. It shares its watershed with the River Severn and the River Dee before flowing generally south-westwards down to a wide estuary. The only large town on its route is Machynlleth.
Because of its origins high in the Cambrian Mountains and its relatively short length, it is prone to flooding and some roads in the lower catchment can become impassable during very wet weather. It is a relatively pristine river with few polluting inputs and is notable for its Salmon and Brown Trout.
The catchment area was notable for its now defunct lead mines and slate quarries, especially around Corris and Dinas Mawddwy.

And as a random claim to fame; The Dyfi's estuary was used as a location shot in Led Zeppelin's 1976 film The Song Remains the Same. This is an area about 4 miles West of this waymark. The segment of the film is where Robert Plant comes ashore on a boat, after which he rides a horse, making his way to Raglan Castle. Plant was obviously behind the choice of the location, being familiar with the area. Bron-Yr-Aur cottage is located on the edge of Machynlleth, where he and the band wrote many songs while on holiday, inc 'Bron-yr-Aur Stomp'.

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/...fi_and_South_Dulas_Machynlleth_Powys_Wales_UK

Just be aware that the SOUTH Dulas is NOT the River that goes through Ceinws - that would be the North Dulas (flowing South towards Machynlleth). There are 2 Dulas Rivers in that area. Both join the River Dyfi. I have posted the map of these rivers on a previous thread.

 

[LegallyBrunette]

A relatively short time elapsed between the disappearance and the arrest, and so the public has been given very little hint of the evidence. It's plain to me that there is a great deal we don't yet know about, including information which may explain motive.

On a really shallow level, some people probably find the suspect attractive and that can cloud judgement.

Now whatever would make you think that :floorlaugh:

 

[PADDYWHACK]

Paddy, is that why you think everyone is second guessing that they have arrested the right man for the crime?

No, its because we have a history of jailing the wrong people and also allowing others to get away with murder.

In my opinion, the second guessing is because he doesn't fit the profile of a bogey man who would act alone. Sure, plenty of nice guys turn out to be killers, but this one is intriguing because of the almost incestuous friendships and relationships unravelling like a soap opera.

People are curious as to why Coral's husband wasn't there to support her at the press conference, or why Coral made the sound of crying without producing a single wet tear, or that she didn't make eye contact and hid behind her hair. Getting tattoos done when your child is missing, or that no one has a bad thing to say about MB, or that none of the houses on the estate have been searched etc

Its all very puzzling.

 

[Adorabella]

okay so maybe I should ask it this way... do you have much faith in your system of Law Enforcement?

I do in ours here in the US.

There seems to be a lack of faith in their investigation and what they have used to charge this guy. Why is that?

Personally, something just doesn't feel right. There was something about the way this investigation unfolded that made me more uncomfortable and less sure, than relieved as time has gone on. No evidence has been made public and so it's impossible for us to take that into account and so I have only been able to weigh up what I have been privy to - which amounts to details that have constantly changed - which destroys confidence rather than build it in this instance.

Also, for example, unlike the recent Tia Sharpe case where the public were made very aware almost instantly by the press of the grandmother's boyfriend's criminal history - all of which was very serious and conveyed a massive lack of judgement and morals, nothing has yet been made public about MB that would be equal to that kind of history.

There was also 'something' about the way their story was told and about them that made people immediately sense that something odd was going on. Even the police suspected a Shannon Matthews type situation until the body was found up in the loft, after three searches.

Clearly the police are not infallible.

Do I have faith in our justice system? Hard to answer - I'd like to think that all police/ doctors/ MP's etc are moral and honest but having seen first hand various examples of this not being entirely true, it would be naive to not consider all options.

For E.g. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-18901925

Or the footage of the police officer hitting Ian Tomlinson with a baton even though he was walking away and had his back to them, which resulted in his death.

The police in this case hopefully have an abundance of evidence pertaining to the guilt of MB (if he is the guilty party) and will easily convince a jury that he carried out this heinous crime and he will be locked up and the key thrown away.

If, however, it is all circumstantial and he was in the wrong place at the wrong time (visiting his children after parent's evening, driving noticeably because his car wasn't working properly etc) and sort of fits a description or owns a vehicle that maybe in different kinds of light etc could somehow tie him to this crime and is a lad about town who needs to be brought down a peg or two (who knows?) - then for so many reasons, mainly the fact that the real perpetrator is still out there and April could have been found, it would be a complete travesty.

I am not saying he is innocent come what may, I am saying that I am presuming him to be innocent until it can be proved otherwise, which may be instant depending on the evidence brought forth at the trial.

 

[uk_sleuth]

http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/docs/code2010english.pdf

The Code for Crown Prosecutors.

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

I remember a case from a good few years ago where a man murdered his wife. The police had a cadaver dog indication has the only real evidence with everything else being purely circumstantial IIRC.

He was eventually arrested, charged and convicted of murder. It turned out in this case that they got the right man and he confessed last year and told them where he buried her.

Point is, the police/CPS here in the UK quite often charge people with very little solid evidence.

I will wait to see what evidence they have on MB but have to say that the fact they are putting 5/7 year old kids in court doesn't fill me with confidence.

I am probably wrong but I haven't heard of such young kids used as witnesses in a murder trial.

 

[Cherwell]

Definition of acquit
verb (acquits, acquitting, acquitted)

1 [with object] free (someone) from a criminal charge by a verdict of not guilty:
she was acquitted on all counts
the jury acquitted Bream of murder

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/acquit

 

[Clutchbag]

A relatively short time elapsed between the disappearance and the arrest, and so the public has been given very little hint of the evidence. It's plain to me that there is a great deal we don't yet know about, including information which may explain motive.

On a really shallow level, some people probably find the suspect attractive and that can cloud judgement.

I think thats quite a pathetic and offensive thing to say

people judging on a photo will go intuitevly for character clues NOT if they fancy them or not, outrageous

 

[Insp.Dots]

But isn't the no case to answer determined by the CPS? i.e. Once the CPS approve charging someone, it's past that stage? Case then goes to trial and the end result is Guilty or Not Guilty. Or possible hung jury and retrial

I'm really not sure on any of it but this may help us:

An "acquittal" under section 5A of the PHA 1997 means any occasion when proceedings are dismissed following the hearing of evidence at trial. This interpretation of the word would also include the situation when the prosecution offers no evidence with regard to the substantive charge: R (O) v Stratford Youth Court [2004] EWHC 1553 (Admin).

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/restraining_orders/#a05

 

[LegallyBrunette]

bump for LB case u missed it, who would MB ask for a ransom off

Not saying him alone, but there have been cases where a ransom has been paid by funds raised.

 

[Clutchbag]

I remember a case from a good few years ago where a man murdered his wife. The police had a cadaver dog indication has the only real evidence with everything else being purely circumstantial IIRC.

He was eventually arrested, charged and convicted of murder. It turned out in this case that they got the right man and he confessed last year and told them where he buried her.

Point is, the police/CPS here in the UK quite often charge people with very little solid evidence.

I will wait to see what evidence they have on MB but have to say that the fact they are putting 5/7 year old kids in court doesn't fill me with confidence.

I am probably wrong but I haven't heard of such young kids used as witnesses in a murder trial.

kate prout murder

 

[LegallyBrunette]

I'm really not sure on any of it but this may help us:

An "acquittal" under section 5A of the PHA 1997 means any occasion when proceedings are dismissed following the hearing of evidence at trial. This interpretation of the word would also include the situation when the prosecution offers no evidence with regard to the substantive charge: R (O) v Stratford Youth Court [2004] EWHC 1553 (Admin).

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/restraining_orders/#a05

Hypothetical might be where witnesses change their mind and disappear or become 'hostile' - for example.

 

[Cherwell]

I think thats quite a pathetic and offensive thing to say

people judging on a photo will go intuitevly for character clues NOT if they fancy them or not, outrageous

You seem to have taken that rather personally.:waitasec:

I took nursebeeme's question to be a general one, and I was reminded of this comment, which does of course refer to people who know the accused.

...and even now according to various posts on our fave social networking site, some STILL don't believe he has done anything. None of his ex's or friends have said a bad thing about him!!

 

[LegallyBrunette]

I think thats quite a pathetic and offensive thing to say

people judging on a photo will go intuitevly for character clues NOT if they fancy them or not, outrageous

So you can extract so much from a photo of the accused, yet the CPS is accused of being 'cold'. Did you want him to do a cabaret act?

 

[Clutchbag]

Not saying him alone, but there have been cases where a ransom has been paid by funds raised.

thats interesting

would the abductor KNOW funds would be raised?
an abductor for ransom abducts due to the wealth of the family not in some hope funds might be raised lol
In most kidnap cases NO or little funds are raised

 

[Insp.Dots]

Personally, something just doesn't feel right. There was something about the way this investigation unfolded that made me more uncomfortable and less sure, than relieved as time has gone on. No evidence has been made public and so it's impossible for us to take that into account and so I have only been able to weigh up what I have been privy to - which amounts to details that have constantly changed - which destroys confidence rather than build it in this instance.

Also, for example, unlike the recent Tia Sharpe case where the public were made very aware almost instantly by the press of the grandmother's boyfriend's criminal history - all of which was very serious and conveyed a massive lack of judgement and morals, nothing has yet been made public about MB that would be equal to that kind of history.

There was also 'something' about the way their story was told and about them that made people immediately sense that something odd was going on. Even the police suspected a Shannon Matthews type situation until the body was found up in the loft, after three searches.

Clearly the police are not infallible.

Do I have faith in our justice system? Hard to answer - I'd like to think that all police/ doctors/ MP's etc are moral and honest but having seen first hand various examples of this not being entirely true, it would be naive to not consider all options.

For E.g. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-18901925

Or the footage of the police officer hitting Ian Tomlinson with a baton even though he was walking away and had his back to them, which resulted in his death.

The police in this case hopefully have an abundance of evidence pertaining to the guilt of MB (if he is the guilty party) and will easily convince a jury that he carried out this heinous crime and he will be locked up and the key thrown away.

If, however, it is all circumstantial and he was in the wrong place at the wrong time (visiting his children after parent's evening, driving noticeably because his car wasn't working properly etc) and sort of fits a description or owns a vehicle that maybe in different kinds of light etc could somehow tie him to this crime and is a lad about town who needs to be brought down a peg or two (who knows?) - then for so many reasons, mainly the fact that the real perpetrator is still out there and April could have been found, it would be a complete travesty.

I am not saying he is innocent come what may, I am saying that I am presuming him to be innocent until it can be proved otherwise, which may be instant depending on the evidence brought forth at the trial.

Summed up very well and I agree with most things you have said and your way of thinking!
Maybe it IS literally that the last 2 major child abduction/Murder cases have put us on our guard. Even the Prime Minister has done an interview on April, I will say one thing IF the powers that be have 'messed' up again, I really hate to think how bad the Public Outrage will be! The riots last year would be nothing against the anger that could be felt on this.

Here's hoping that We will get to see Justice done and we will all be saying what a marvellous job the Police did and why it all now makes sense???
OR even better: April appears safe and well and it was all a stupid mistake!!

 

[Clutchbag]

So you can extract so much from a photo of the accused, yet the CPS is accused of being 'cold'. Did you want him to do a cabaret act?

whatever i personally think from a photo has absolutely nothing to do with the cps bearing resposibility for having solid evidence, god help them if they have stitched him up



btw i said the bloke seemed like a witchfinder general, jmo

 

[PADDYWHACK]

Why hasn't this man been named?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-19995684