GUILTY UK - Arrest in 1987 'Bedsit Murders' of Wendy Knell, 25, and Caroline Pierce, 20, in Kent

[SaintGertrude]

Was Fuller in charge of a team as his job description at the hospital was technical supervisor.
There is a photo of his door pass in this article.
David Fuller: Hospital worker admits murdering two women and sexually assaulting nearly 80 corpses

Here is a job description for a Technical supervisor role.
What Does A Technical Supervisor Do

 

[Chest_Rockwell]

Was Fuller in charge of a team as his job description at the hospital was technical supervisor.

Yes, I remember the same role at the PFI Hospital I was based at back in 2007 - 2010. I didn't "work" at the hospital, but had a desk in PFI Contractor's hospital office as I supported the entire region with regards to IT. There was a legion of bulb changers there and most were TUPE'd across to the PFI provider with their NHS terms and conditions intact - a thorn in the side for the PFI providers. A lot of them had been at the old hospital since the late 70s/80s and were just "gliding along" until retirement. Fuller would have been the same...just gliding along till he could cash in on probably a final salary pension scheme from his old NHS T&Cs. The facilities guys and girls who came in after the PFI transfer would have absolute rubbish T&Cs compared to the old NHS folk.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Interserve and Mitie for those crimes during the PFI Hospital era. Before that I'd say the NHS.

Either way, the taxpayer will foot the bill.

The two companies I've mentioned are in the public domain about this case, so it's no secret.

EDIT: the point of the PFI contractors is to handle the day to day running of the hospital, literally taking it out of the hands of the taxpayer public services and leaving the NHS to just deal with doctors and nurses.

I wonder if the risk of abuse towards deceased patients on hospital premises, including the mortuary had been identified in the NHS Trusts Risk Register? Even more so following the revelations regarding Savile and the awful incident involving the body of Emiliano Sala, in a non-NHS facility.

The same would go for the appropriate vetting of new staff and periodic reviews.

If such activities were registered as risks, then were risk assessments conducted to identify the exact nature of the risks and the appropriate mitigation introduced? The Risk Register is maintained at Executive level in each NHS Trust.

Senior executives/managers in public and government bodies should be investigated criminally. I would like to see the application of Misconduct in a Public Office considered in a corporate way or new legislation/amendments to the existing law, which would be a wake up call for those who have significant responsibility towards us all.

JMOO

 

[Chest_Rockwell]

I wonder if the risk of abuse towards deceased patients on hospital premises, including the mortuary had been identified in the NHS Trusts Risk Register? Even more so following the revelations regarding Savile and the awful incident involving the body of Emiliano Sala, in a non-NHS facility.

The same would go for the appropriate vetting of new staff and periodic reviews.

If such activities were registered as risks, then were risk assessments conducted to identify the exact nature of the risksand the appropriate mitigation introduced? The Risk Register is maintained at Executive level in the NHS.

Senior executives/managers in public and government bodies should be investigated criminally. I would like to see the application of Misconduct in a Public Office considered in a corporate way, which would be a wake up call for those who have significant responsibility towards us all.

JMOO

I know I liked this, but very well said.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I know I liked this, but very well said.

Thank you @Chest_Rockwell

 

[joe jones]

+If I am correct Fuller was only caught because his brother commited a crime and his DNA was uploaded to the criminal data base? What are the chances of that after so many years! I believe his brother was older than him too. Had this not happened Fuller would still be a free man. Scary !!

I think they had a profile, they looked at familial DNA in all their databases, some members of his family were a close match, that is when they began to look for living relatives of this family tree who were male and would have been of an age to commit the murders, his brother was one of these living relatives (I think they went to his brother first to get his DNA so that they had evidence that his brother was a close match before they went to arrest him, his brother would have shared the DNA markers that shows that when tested against the known match revealed the DNA from the murders and the brothers DNA came from same parents) after the brothers DNA proved useful they knew he was the killer, as I imagine they had been watching Fuller and investigating all his prior history pre his arrest

 

[joe jones]

What would count as a recordable offence? His relatives DNA must have been added only recently or it would have flagged up before surely? I believe police had a full DNA profile for Wendys killer for quite a while before Fullers arrest?
Just checked they had it since 2012.

I don't think his brothers DNA was on file, when they had a match that was close to Fullers family tree they went looking for living relatives, I think it highly likely once the Fuller family tree matches were found in system before they even went to brothers they would have investigated him and would have learned of Fuller then

corrected his brothers DNA was on file, but they did go and get a new sample from him to make sure they were looking in the right direction, I wonder what LE told him they needed it for

 

[joe jones]

once you have a DBS check and it comes back clean you can renew it annually for £13 online without any fresh checking, I have a family member who does this every year

 

[Chest_Rockwell]

I think they had a profile, they looked at familial DNA in all their databases, some members of his family were a close match, that is when they began to look for living relatives of this family tree who were male and would have been of an age to commit the murders, his brother was one of these living relatives (I think they went to his brother first to get his DNA so that they had evidence that his brother was a close match before they went to arrest him, his brother would have shared the DNA markers that shows that when tested against the known match revealed the DNA from the murders and the brothers DNA came from same parents) after the brothers DNA proved useful they knew he was the killer, as I imagine they had been watching Fuller and investigating all his prior history pre his arrest

His brother was already on the national DNA database from a "recent" offence, but was not there when they conducted previous searches. This suggests his brother got busted for something possibly at some point 2019 onward. It was a private "DNA" firm who got the familial match, Cellmark I believe.

 

[Chest_Rockwell]

Just found the quote from the trial:

Following the linking of the DNA in both scenes in 2019 the new familial DNA elimination phase was conducted - this started in October 2020.

It involved comparing DNA profiles at the scene with DNA profiles on police system. The DNA profile of a brother of David Fuller was on the police database - this showed some similarity with but did not match the DNA profiles obtained from the scenes of the killings.

A voluntary DNA sample was taken from the brother in 2020 and compared to the DNA taken from the crime scene.

The results showed that a male relative of the brother could not be excluded.

As a result, David Fuller was arrested on December 3, 2020 and DNA samples were obtained from him.

 

[joe jones]

His brother was already on the national DNA database from a "recent" offence, but was not there when they conducted previous searches. This suggests his brother got busted for something possibly at some point 2019 onward. It was a private "DNA" firm who got the familial match, Cellmark I believe.

yes I have just read an article he was added in 2012, most forensics are now done privately as we have no national forensic science service anymore, some is done in house with small forensic labs attached to police forces (which is all kinds of wrong to me)

 

[Chest_Rockwell]

yes I have just read an article he was added in 2012, most forensics are now done privately as we have no national forensic science service anymore, some is done in house with small forensic labs attached to police forces (which is all kinds of wrong to me)

Blimey...the answer had been sitting there since 2012. I had assumed it was much later.

 

[joe jones]

Blimey...the answer had been sitting there since 2012. I had assumed it was much later.

it was only when they began to run familial DNA that his brothers DNA would have flagged in the system, when they run crime scene DNA they normally run it looking for a match, and they only connected both murders by DNA in 2019 so it was pretty speedy from matching the murders to getting a familial match to the brother to then arresting him,

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I think they had a profile, they looked at familial DNA in all their databases, some members of his family were a close match, that is when they began to look for living relatives of this family tree who were male and would have been of an age to commit the murders, his brother was one of these living relatives (I think they went to his brother first to get his DNA so that they had evidence that his brother was a close match before they went to arrest him, his brother would have shared the DNA markers that shows that when tested against the known match revealed the DNA from the murders and the brothers DNA came from same parents) after the brothers DNA proved useful they knew he was the killer, as I imagine they had been watching Fuller and investigating all his prior history pre his arrest

This seems very confused! Only family members who had been charged (subsequently arrested) after April 1995 would have had DNA uploaded to the National DNA Database as an known individual.

1. DNA profiles recovered from crime investigations are retained on the National DNA Database.

2. Persons arrested and taken to a police station provide a DNA sample for speculative search against the National DNA Database of DNA from unsolved crimes.

3. A familial DNA search is a technique that has been developed in the last 15-20 years, which is used in some serious criminal investigations. It involves taking the full offender profile from the crime and setting parameters to compare against DNA from known offenders that have similar DNA features but are NOT identical. There were 1000 persons identified who met the search parameters. These were further narrowed to 90 and then the best 20, who were asked to provide a voluntary DNA sample for further comparison with the suspect profile.

This complex and time consuming process identified a known individual (previously arrested) who was a father, brother or son of the murderer of Wendy Knell, who we know know to be DF. Once DF had been identified by police, he was arrested and a DNA sample taken upon arrest, which subsequently confirmed him as having the same full DNA profile as Wendy's murderer.

DF as an identified/arrested person was not known to the National DNA Database before this arrest sample was uploaded.

DNA use in forensics is complex and will become even more so as the science advances further.

 

[Dotta]

I don't think his brothers DNA was on file, when they had a match that was close to Fullers family tree they went looking for living relatives, I think it highly likely once the Fuller family tree matches were found in system before they even went to brothers they would have investigated him and would have learned of Fuller then

corrected his brothers DNA was on file, but they did go and get a new sample from him to make sure they were looking in the right direction, I wonder what LE told him they needed it for

They might have looked into his rubbish bin

 

[joe jones]

I wonder if the fingerprint found at crime scene was developed when they did cold case review or was it found during initial processing, I don't know what the process is for retaining known prints, as Fuller would have had his fingerprints taken when he was arrested for his burglary crimes

 

[Dotta]

Blimey...the answer had been sitting there since 2012. I had assumed it was much later.

Hmmm... "Blimey"
It was the first word DF said when Police knocked at his door!
Just saying...haha
I have to Google it as I have never heard this word before

 

[joe jones]

They might have looked into his rubbish bin

I don't know if UK police are allowed to use discarded DNA to gain a DNA profile, I think MI5 and other security services are but don't know if the police can legally do this

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I wonder if the fingerprint found at crime scene was developed when they did cold case review or was it found during initial processing, I don't know what the process is for retaining known prints, as Fuller would have had his fingerprints taken when he was arrested for his burglary crimes

Fingerprints are retained on the National Fingerprint Database. Even though a fingerprint was recovered it may not have been good enough to obtain a 'match' with DF's held from his earlier offences.

There is also the possibility that the fingerprints taken manually in the 1970's were not of good enough quality. I recall taking a prisoners fingerprints about four times as a shiny probationer until they passed my tutors keen eye.....it's a real art to make them look beautiful

 

[Dotta]

I wonder if the fingerprint found at crime scene was developed when they did cold case review or was it found during initial processing, I don't know what the process is for retaining known prints, as Fuller would have had his fingerprints taken when he was arrested for his burglary crimes

Exactly!
I thought the same when I read about the fingerprint found in the house of the victim.
His fingerprints should have been in the system b/c of burglaries.