UK - Arthur Labinjo Hughes, 6, killed, dad & friend arrested, June 2020 #2

[Tinksx]

Andrew questioned the pink chair and was told to mind his own business I think.

Is the salt charge on his sheet? I genuinely don't believe he knew about the salt.

They are charged with everything evenly.

 

[Dotta]

One juror is ill.
Does this mean another juror will be brought in from reserve?
But will this juror know all the facts?

 

[ScottishSam]

They are charged with everything evenly.

OK so ET - all of them
TH - 3 of them

 

[ScottishSam]

One juror is ill.
Does this mean another juror will be brought in from reserve?
But will this juror know all the facts?

I got the impression they're not replacing the juror

 

[Tinksx]

OK so ET - all of them
TH - 3 of them

I can’t remember what all the charges are off the top of my head, but I think there’s 4 counts of cruelty and 1 charge of murder for each of them.

 

[Discosally]

OK so ET - all of them
TH - 3 of them

I think they are both charged with 5 counts.
4 of cruelty
1 of murder

so TH Guilty of 4 counts of child cruelty
ET Guilty of all charges (she has pleaded Guilty to one of the counts already, I think it was assault but I’m not sure)
I can’t understand why TH has not pleaded Guilty to the 4 counts already, as his testimonies have sounded like he is being truthful as they are the same under each cross examination, which is why they have been short in comparison to ET’s days on the stand. The only thing that makes me think why he pleaded NG to the 4 cruelty charges is it a legal tactic? If he pleaded guilty would his barrister not be able to cross examine ET on her NG plea if TH pleaded guilty?
I think TH is expecting to be found Guilty on the 4 cruelty charges, because he seems to be answering truthfully. I think ET thought she was going to get away with it but has realised that she isn’t, hence her hospital visit.
It is disgusting that they pleaded NG as the harrowing details now have to be heard by Arthur’s family that loved him dearly. It’s so so sad.

 

[ScottishSam]

I think they are both charged with 5 counts.
4 of cruelty
1 of murder

so TH Guilty of 4 counts of child cruelty
ET Guilty of all charges (she has pleaded Guilty to one of the counts already, I think it was assault but I’m not sure)
I can’t understand why TH has not pleaded Guilty to the 4 counts already, as his testimonies have sounded like he is being truthful as they are the same under each cross examination, which is why they have been short in comparison to ET’s days on the stand. The only thing that makes me think why he pleaded NG to the 4 cruelty charges is it a legal tactic? If he pleaded guilty would his barrister not be able to cross examine ET on her NG plea if TH pleaded guilty.
It is disgusting that they pleaded NG as the harrowing details now have to be heard by Arthur’s family that loved him dearly. It’s so so sad.

I think he pleaded NG once he was made aware of certain things. If that hadn't come out I'm sure he would have pleaded guilty, as he believed it was all him. And nothing to do with her ' she went along with it' , I'm sure he said

 

[ScottishSam]

So for me the salt, and the final blow on his part is NG.

 

[Discosally]

I think he pleaded NG once he was made aware of certain things. If that hadn't come out I'm sure he would have pleaded guilty, as he believed it was all him. And nothing to do with her ' she went along with it' , I'm sure he said

Yes, good point, I didn’t think of that.

 

[ScottishSam]

Yes, good point, I didn’t think of that.

The only reason I thought this was because in his police interviews, without a solicitor present he admitted to beating Arthur, and all manner of disgusting things. So I was confused as to why he was pleading not guilty. Then, as the medical evidence came out, and the cctv and messages were discussed in court and ET played a much bigger role than I'd assumed. So maybe his legal team have advised him that yes he's guilty, but so is she. Just my opinion though.

 

[Tinksx]

4 counts of cruelty includes the salt. So for me, regarding TH and the cruelty charges, id only find him guilty of 3.

I’d find ET guilty of all 4 cruelty charges.

 

[Lancslass]

Its great having this forum for discussions isnt it. I would have cracked up otherwise, my hubby wont let me talk about it and its too heavy to chat your friends about. My son Charlie and me light a candle for Arthur every evening. Its the first thing he says when he comes in. He doesnt know how Arthur died but knows he isnt here anymore. I nearly cry when he says his name, the innocence. Lets light a candle for Arthur

I am the same. Nobody in my family wants to discuss it. Too depressing they say.
It’s not something you can discuss with colleagues at work at any length .
So thank goodness for this forum.

 

[Tinksx]

The murder charges I really struggled with TH. Until it was pointed out about the secondary thingy. Then I could see a guilty for murder. However, if enough persuasion is given that TH was controlled beyond belief, that would make the subsection about “a reasonable person knew or out to have known” shaky. Which is what i think his defence is hammering home. I think if they can convince the jury that TH was so controlled and blinded by ET that he couldn’t possibly have known this would happen, it creates reasonable doubt and if that’s the case, TH could get a not guilty. That’s just my take on the limited amount of info that’s been published.

 

[Discosally]

The only reason I thought this was because in his police interviews, without a solicitor present he admitted to beating Arthur, and all manner of disgusting things. So I was confused as to why he was pleading not guilty. Then, as the medical evidence came out, and the cctv and messages were discussed in court and ET played a much bigger role than I'd assumed. So maybe his legal team have advised him that yes he's guilty, but so is she. Just my opinion though.

Yes this is a really good point, I agree with you

 

[ScottishSam]

I am the same. Nobody in my family wants to discuss it. Too depressing they say.
It’s not something you can discuss with colleagues at work at any length .
So thank goodness for this forum.

I'm the same.
I think that child abuse is everyone's business, but the number of people who don't want to know, and therefore wouldn't recognise it and be in a position to report or help is staggering. Cases like this should make the news, a lot of people don't read newspapers anymore, so the TV is the most obvious medium for raising awareness.

 

[Discosally]

The murder charges I really struggled with TH. Until it was pointed out about the secondary thingy. Then I could see a guilty for murder. However, if enough persuasion is given that TH was controlled beyond belief, that would make the subsection about “a reasonable person knew or out to have known” shaky. Which is what i think his defence is hammering home. I think if they can convince the jury that TH was so controlled and blinded by ET that he couldn’t possibly have known this would happen, it creates reasonable doubt and if that’s the case, TH could get a not guilty. That’s just my take on the limited amount of info that’s been published.

yes, because on the limited evidence that I have seen from the reporting, I am inclined to think he is not guilty of secondary murder because he didn’t know about the salt and other incidences of her cruelty like waking him up by pulling his duvet from under him. You could see from his answers that he genuinely didn’t know that she was waking him up like this.

 

[ScottishSam]

The murder charges I really struggled with TH. Until it was pointed out about the secondary thingy. Then I could see a guilty for murder. However, if enough persuasion is given that TH was controlled beyond belief, that would make the subsection about “a reasonable person knew or out to have known” shaky. Which is what i think his defence is hammering home. I think if they can convince the jury that TH was so controlled and blinded by ET that he couldn’t possibly have known this would happen, it creates reasonable doubt and if that’s the case, TH could get a not guilty. That’s just my take on the limited amount of info that’s been published.

Yes his legal team have hammered home the coercive angle. I think that's what they've based their whole case on. He admitted in his police interviews the physical and psychological abuse. Plus the texts and witness testimonies don't paint him as an unwilling participant.

 

[Tinksx]

yes, because on the limited evidence that I have seen from the reporting, I am inclined to think he is not guilty of secondary murder because he didn’t know about the salt and the rest of her cruelty like waking him up by pulling his duvet from under him.

I also think that because ET has acted appealing on the stand, and her demeanour was brought up by TH counsel (“how ET is acting now is what she was like at home” - not verbatim) is only going to help TH. This is just things that i have noted and stood out to me. On the other hand, you have TH messages about “ending” Arthur in all matter of ways and more than once. So it’s really anyones guess which way this goes for TH.

 

[ScottishSam]

yes, because on the limited evidence that I have seen from the reporting, I am inclined to think he is not guilty of secondary murder because he didn’t know about the salt and other incidences of her cruelty like waking him up by pulling his duvet from under him. You could see from his answers that he genuinely didn’t know that she was waking him up like this.

When the QC asked what went wrong? And he replied 'I met ET'.
I think seeing Arthur being thrown out his duvet, and how ET was trying to position Arthur between rooms after the final assault, maybe the penny finally dropped for him?
He also said she'd never hit Arthur, then the cctv showed she did.

 

[Dotta]

By the way,
has ET been officially diagnosed as having any kind of personality disorder?
I think TH defence would jump on opportunity to present him as a poor lamb led astray by a disturbed woman.
Well, they tried to show he was a good dad before he met her but it wasnt too convincing.
Im not convinced at all.