GUILTY UK- Boy, 6, thrown from 10th floor of London Art Gallery, Aug 2019 *minor arrested*

[Candidateforwax]

I presume this guy gave some signs and symptoms of violence during his life...

It sounds like from what the care worker said he did but it's not fair to lock someone up forever because of that and deny them the chance of a full recovery. I've worked with mentally ill young people who, when their disorders were at their worst, were a danger to themselves and others. However, with the right combination of meds, therapy and the opportunity to do things that were beneficial towards their mental health were completely non-violent and able to not only be part of but thrive in their communities. Day trips are often a part of that recovery process and obviously someone severely dropped the ball and now this boy will face the criminal justice system and rightfully so. However, you can't deny someone a chance of recovery because of how their mental illness manifested historically.

 

[AnnesCuthberts]

It sounds like this boy was in one of those places. At least at some point if not (and I think it's likely he still was) when this crime was committed. And like RachelZachary said, I don't know what this boy's care plan looks like, nor do I know how he was presenting in the days and weeks leading up to the crime. For all we know he might have been presenting well and in a non-violent way before he went to the Tate. We can't come to sweeping conclusions when we still don't know the facts.

Yes, this. And from my experience with mental health issues and the support for complex or long-term ones, the services can be woefully inadequate or unable to extend to reach the full scope of needs a patient has. But ofc my experience is not this boys experience and so on.

 

[Candidateforwax]

Yes, this. And from my experience with mental health issues and the support for complex or long-term ones, the services can be woefully inadequate or unable to extend to reach the full scope of needs a patient has. But ofc my experience is not this boys experience and so on.

Yes this is very true. Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services funding in particular has taken an absolute battering in recent years.

It makes me think of the Katie Rough case: her killer had all the signs of a serious psychotic illness and wasn't being treated for it. With proper funding for CAMHS and proper intervention for the girl who knows if poor Katie may still be alive today?

 

[Isabelle98]

It sounds like from what the care worker said he did but it's not fair to lock someone up forever because of that and deny them the chance of a full recovery. I've worked with mentally ill young people who, when their disorders were at their worst, were a danger to themselves and others. However, with the right combination of meds, therapy and the opportunity to do things that were beneficial towards their mental health were completely non-violent and able to not only be part of but thrive in their communities. Day trips are often a part of that recovery process and obviously someone severely dropped the ball and now this boy will face the criminal justice system and rightfully so. However, you can't deny someone a chance of recovery because of how their mental illness manifested historically.

Candidateforwax I don't want to deny anything to anybody. I just don't want "normal people" being harmed or killed by people with psychosis, schizophrenia or something like that.

 

[Candidateforwax]

Candidateforwax I don't want to deny anything to anybody. I just don't want "normal people" being harmed or killed by people with psychosis, schizophrenia or something like that.

I know you put it in inverted commas but 'normal people' is pretty problematic and again increases the stigma of those with a mental health issue vs those who don't. It's also worth pointing out that disorders like schizophrenia can present in many different ways: I've worked with some patients who you'd probably have no idea even had it. Again, it's also worth pointing out that people with mental health issues are more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators.

I'm sure everyone on this forum doesn't want anyone to be the victim of a violent crime, regardless of the mental health status of the victim or perpetrator.

 

[Isabelle98]

I know you put it in inverted commas but 'normal people' is pretty problematic and again increases the stigma of those with a mental health issue vs those who don't. It's also worth pointing out that disorders like schizophrenia can present in many different ways: I've worked with some patients who you'd probably have no idea even had it. Again, it's also worth pointing out that people with mental health issues are more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators.

I'm sure everyone on this forum doesn't want anyone to be the victim of a violent crime, regardless of the mental health status of the victim or perpetrator.

I used the words "normal people" because I sincerely don't know how to define those who have no mental issues.
Of course I didn't want to increase the so called stigma at all

 

[Candidateforwax]

I used the words "normal people" because I sincerely don't know how to define those who have no mental issues.
Of course I didn't want to increase the so called stigma at all

'People with no mental health issues' is fine If you prefer something snappier, 'usual' or 'typical behaviour' are often better choices of words. The problem with 'normal' is it implies that there is a 'normal' way to behave which then immediately separates those living with a mental health issue, even if they could be like you or I in many ways.

 

[neesaki]

Tate Modern suspect 'punched in face and locked in toilet for own protection' ​

The 17-year-old - was grabbed and pinned down by witnesses after a six-year-old was thrown from the viewing platform at the gallery.

The teen was calm when he was confronted by about eight people and blamed social services when asked why he had thrown the boy over the railing, it is claimed.

...He said security guards thought he suspect was a relative of the boy and took him into the cafe..

Security guards took the teen into the 10th floor cafe but after someone shouted that he was the culprit a bystander punched him in the face and he was moved to the toilet, according to a witness.

The pic.^ shows the incline of the 'slope' from where the boy was thrown, I guess this 'broke his fall' & probably saved his life?
This thou does give me hope he can make a full recovery - physically at least
Tate Modern suspect 'punched in face and locked in toilet for own protection'

Locked in the toilet? Well that’s at least a tiny bit of poetic justice.

 

[IceIce9]

It’s not - because it’s not an average 17 year old boy that has just decided to do this. This is a boy with a care plan and mental health conditions - of which can be extremely complex and vary widely. Clearly something has gone wrong but that can’t be judged until the facts are out.

The only fact I know is that a young child who was with his parents and hurled over a roof, suffering terrible physical injuries that will very likely change his entire life. That is not even mentioning the emotional damage to the child, his parents, and anyone else witnessing this violent act.

The facts of the 17 year old’s care plan don’t matter at all to the 6-year old child and parents. Can you imagine the child’s pain and suffering, how many surgeries and weeks or months of rehab he will go through? Does he have paralysis? Brain damage?

Treat his mental condition and change his care plan, but keep him away from innocent victims who can have their lives changed in the blink of an eye.

 

[Rosegold68]

im sorry but im not dancing around trying to find terminology to keep a few people happy. the 3 shooters in America recently could be argued to ALL be mentally ill. To me they are what they are, scummy murderers

 

[Candidateforwax]

im sorry but im not dancing around trying to find terminology to keep a few people happy. the 3 shooters in America recently could be argued to ALL be mentally ill. To me they are what they are, scummy murderers

The 25% of the population who will live with a mental health condition at some point - some of whom may well be your loved ones - are not a few people. Not all people with mental health conditions are 'scummy murderers'.

 

[katydid23]

Because people with mental health issues aren't zoo animals in cages? 1 in 4 people suffer from a mental health issue at some point in their lives so of course they're going to be walking around. You can, of course, argue that a violent individual who needed 2 on 1 supervision shouldn't be out in public but again, saying people with mental health issues shouldn't be out in public is a sweeping generalisation and yet another way of increasing stigma.

Right, but there's a difference between someone with mental health issues, and someone known to have violent impulses, who is strong and aggressive, and has acted on those violent urges in the past.

 

[Candidateforwax]

Right, but there's a difference between someone with mental health issues, and someone known to have violent impulses, who is strong and aggressive, and has acted on those violent urges in the past.

As I said in the same post you have quoted.

 

[wtiger]

My inevitably unpopular opinion is simple.:
If you cannot operate in public in a manner which does not involve pushing children from viewing platforms - you really should not be allowed among other people....if treatment fixes this...great..but until then, just keep people like this away from people not like this!

 

[Sarahlou]

My inevitably unpopular opinion is simple.:
If you cannot operate in public in a manner which does not involve pushing children from viewing platforms - you really should not be allowed among other people....if treatment fixes this...great..but until then, just keep people like this away from people not like this!

That's not unpopular.
It was the generalizing of all mentally ill people as being unfit to be in public that was unpopular.

 

[RachelZachary]

The only fact I know is that a young child who was with his parents and hurled over a roof, suffering terrible physical injuries that will very likely change his entire life. That is not even mentioning the emotional damage to the child, his parents, and anyone else witnessing this violent act.

The facts of the 17 year old’s care plan don’t matter at all to the 6-year old child and parents. Can you imagine the child’s pain and suffering, how many surgeries and weeks or months of rehab he will go through? Does he have paralysis? Brain damage?

Treat his mental condition and change his care plan, but keep him away from innocent victims who can have their lives changed in the blink of an eye.

While we know the incident happened, we don’t have any other facts. These will of course in time be presented through the legal system and judged appropriately.

My child was hurt by someone once. Nothing in comparison to this, but actually yes, I did want to understand what lead to the incident and of course what would happen next and in the future.

 

[RachelZachary]

im sorry but im not dancing around trying to find terminology to keep a few people happy. the 3 shooters in America recently could be argued to ALL be mentally ill. To me they are what they are, scummy murderers

Let’s not get started on the gun problem in America.

 

[tresir2012]

Because people with mental health issues aren't zoo animals in cages? 1 in 4 people suffer from a mental health issue at some point in their lives so of course they're going to be walking around. You can, of course, argue that a violent individual who needed 2 on 1 supervision shouldn't be out in public but again, saying people with mental health issues shouldn't be out in public is a sweeping generalisation and yet another way of increasing stigma.

The public has to be protected. There was a case recently prosecuted where a guy was pushing commuters into the paths of trains. They were luckily saved in both instances by bystanders. In this case it does sound like he was completely on his own and security should have been called by those other members of the public who noticed him. MOO.

 

[tresir2012]

While we know the incident happened, we don’t have any other facts. These will of course in time be presented through the legal system and judged appropriately.

My child was hurt by someone once. Nothing in comparison to this, but actually yes, I did want to understand what lead to the incident and of course what would happen next and in the future.

Exactly, we don't know the exact circumstances here so we can only judge by the horrendous outcome. It appears to be someone not in the possession of all their mental faculties but as they haven't been sectioned and have been charged as normal, we will have to wait for the legal process to take it's course. If there were anyone else responsible, then I would have thought they would have been arrested also. (E.g. minders or carers).

 

[tresir2012]

Because people with mental health issues aren't zoo animals in cages? 1 in 4 people suffer from a mental health issue at some point in their lives so of course they're going to be walking around. You can, of course, argue that a violent individual who needed 2 on 1 supervision shouldn't be out in public but again, saying people with mental health issues shouldn't be out in public is a sweeping generalisation and yet another way of increasing stigma.

Did he need 2 on 1 supervision? Where was that stated? I must have missed it.