GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged in death of baby Victoria, GUILTY on all counts incl retrial on manslaughter, 5 Jan 2023 #9

[Alyce]

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[Nikynoo]

Does he admit to committing the crimes in the first place?

He pleaded guilty to the rape, then later changed his plea to not guilty. Even if he subsequently re-confessed, that may have been required as a condition of release. (Speculation.) I have no idea what he says now if somebody asks whether he did it. That would be important info IMO regarding what kind of guy he is now, when he's in his 50s.

From the Argus:

Constance Marten’s partner was convicted of rape in US aged 14, retrial told

Mark Gordon was convicted of raping a woman in the United States when he was 14-years-old and received a prison sentence of 40 years, jurors have…

www.theargus.co.uk

That's not exactly clear. Could it be that the wardships and travel ban were only in force for less than six weeks?

If you plead guilty in the US, you lose all your rights. Personally, I think he should have been tried as a child or tried as an adult and not on the basis of a guilty plea. Being a black adolescent, in a southern state in the 90s, suspected of a violent sexual assault, is not a good place to be. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, if his crime had been in the UK, he would not have received 40 years.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

If you plead guilty in the US, you lose all your rights. Personally, I think he should have been tried as a child or tried as an adult and not on the basis of a guilty plea. Being a black adolescent, in a southern state in the 90s, suspected of a violent sexual assault, is not a good place to be. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, if his crime had been in the UK, he would not have received 40 years.

That was your 5,000 post!

In your opinion, what would have become of MG in the UK if he were faced with the same charges at that age in that same era? Am simply curious, not on an agenda. Do you think he would have been dealt with more fairly and with less prejudice in the UK?

I've said this before a few times: when MG moved the pram padding from off the baby's face after CM had flung her over into the pram practically dangling her by one arm and then stuffed the padding down on top of her, I felt that he acted with empathy, care, tenderness. It's easy to assume that he's an abuser and the controlling violent one but that one scenario alone made me wonder. Is it that he could care for his own offspring even if he's a serious violent offender. At the very least he seemed to have some capacity for the baby's immediate welfare and comfort that CM didn't.

JMO MOO

 

[Carriep]

That was your 5,000 post!

In your opinion, what would have become of MG in the UK if he were faced with the same charges at that age in that same era? Am simply curious, not on an agenda. Do you think he would have been dealt with more fairly and with less prejudice in the UK?

I've said this before a few times: when MG moved the pram padding from off the baby's face after CM had flung her over into the pram practically dangling her by one arm and then stuffed the padding down on top of her, I felt that he acted with empathy, care, tenderness. It's easy to assume that he's an abuser and the controlling violent one but that one scenario alone made me wonder. Is it that he could care for his own offspring even if he's a serious violent offender. At the very least he seemed to have some capacity for the baby's immediate welfare and comfort that CM didn't.

JMO MOO

Here is an example of the dehumanising (IMO) way in which MG is being talked about in the media in the present day:

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon dodged questions, jury told

Wealthy aristocrat Constance Marten and her convicted rapist partner “sought to mask the reality” to the jury and were “picking

www.brightonandhovenews.org

"Gordon had to be forcibly restrained during the incident and a new father had stepped in to help the two female officers before more police arrived to arrest him."

Why not "another new father"? Why is he himself not described as a new father?

I am thinking of famous headlines such as "miner in fight with man".

Because "new father" is certainly what he was at that time, unless he had previous children that we don't know about. So the context may be one in which he was allowed in to accompany his wife - albeit apparently being called her "friend" and not the father - and we don't know whether he was present at the actual birth but perhaps he was - and then later, perhaps when they have been separated for a short time while she's getting a gown change or being stitched or whatever, expecting them to be reunited within about 10 minutes together with the baby, away from the theatre, suddenly there are police officers there with radios and weapons, and one of them is blocking the door, and the atmosphere is one of no way are we allowing somebody like you in there, matey, not with all the mothers and babies, not until you answer our questions anyway - it's too dangerous.

Whichever way you look at it, that is certainly going to have been somewhat of an emotional occasion for MG.

And it can be added that since this was her first child (again, as far as we know), she can't have had any SS record of being considered incapable of caring for children, or having had children taken from her. Nor is giving a false name when you're in labour a crime of any kind, so one has to wonder what on earth was going on.

 

[jackal67]

Here is an example of the dehumanising (IMO) way in which MG is being talked about in the media in the present day:

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon dodged questions, jury told

Wealthy aristocrat Constance Marten and her convicted rapist partner “sought to mask the reality” to the jury and were “picking

www.brightonandhovenews.org

Why not "another new father"? Why is he himself not described as a new father?

I am thinking of famous headlines such as "miner in fight with man".

Because "new father" is certainly what he was at that time, unless he had previous children that we don't know about. So the context may be one in which he was allowed in to accompany his wife - albeit apparently being called her "friend" and not the father - and we don't know whether he was present at the actual birth but perhaps he was - and then later, perhaps when they have been separated for a short time while she's getting a gown change or being stitched or whatever, expecting them to be reunited within about 10 minutes together with the baby, away from the theatre, suddenly there are police officers there with radios and weapons, and one of them is blocking the door, and the atmosphere is one of no way are we allowing somebody like you in there, matey, not with all the mothers and babies, not until you answer our questions anyway - it's too dangerous.

Whichever way you look at it, that is certainly going to have been somewhat of an emotional occasion for MG.

And it can be added that since this was her first child (again, as far as we know), she can't have had any SS record of being considered incapable of caring for children, or having had children taken from her. Nor is giving a false name when you're in labour a crime of any kind, so one has to wonder what on earth was going on.

I have said this before . There was a national hospital alert issued for CM after she visited a London hospital in early pregnancy. We do not know why she attended hospital but the hospital obviously had serious concerns for her welfare to issue a national alert. Once their identitys were established this would have flagged up the alert therefore police were called,

 

[Lucy6226]

I have said this before . There was a national hospital alert issued for CM after she visited a London hospital in early pregnancy. We do not know why she attended hospital but the hospital obviously had serious concerns for her welfare to issue a national alert. Once their identitys were established this would have flagged up the alert therefore police were called,

Was that also not when SS became involved because they stated they lived in a caravan but were found living in a tent, bags of rubbish and bottles of urine inside?? iirc

 

[jackal67]

That was when

Was that also not when SS became involved because they stated they lived in a caravan but were found living in a tent, bags of rubbish and bottles of urine inside?? iirc

Thats when they were living in Wales when the first baby was born. The london hospital visit was in April before they moved to Wales and the London hospital placed CM on a national alert but we dont know the reason for this alert. She said then that she was living in a campervan

 

[Alyce]

On Tuesday, prosecutor Tom Little KC said in his closing speech: “They exposed their baby to the cold, damp and windy conditions with wholly inadequate clothing inside that tent.”

Mr Little said “in some ways this case, despite how long it has lasted, is very simple and straight forward” and said that the baby would still be alive had they not begun camping in January 2023.

He added: “That is a cold hard fact in this case, what happens thereafter is not accidental, it all follows from their total lack of parenting skills and abilities, total lack of clothing that there was to keep the baby safe and that is why they appear before you in a dock at the Central Criminal Court.

“This case is about the duty that they owed to the baby which they plainly breached.

“They are responsible for her death, not the police, not the social services and ultimately when you stand back and you consider what she says… about where the baby was sleeping, it was simply too cold, she could not maintain her temperature and death was inevitable.”

Constance Marten's baby's death was 'inevitable', court hears

The death of the baby of wealthy aristocrat Constance Marten and her partner was “inevitable”, a prosecutor has said

www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk

 

[Alyce]

Last week, jurors were told that Gordon had been convicted of raping a woman in Florida while armed with a knife and hedge clippers in 1989 when he was aged 14.


Within a month, he entered another property and carried out another offence involving “aggravated battery”, the court was told.


In February 1994, Gordon received a sentence of 40 years’ imprisonment, of which he served 22 years.


In 2017, Gordon had pleaded guilty to assaulting two police officers who had been called to a maternity ward in Wales after Marten gave birth to one of Victoria’s older siblings, jurors have heard.


Gordon had to be forcibly restrained during the incident and a new father had stepped in to help the two female officers before more police arrived to arrest him.

Constance Marten's baby's death was 'inevitable', court hears

The death of the baby of wealthy aristocrat Constance Marten and her partner was “inevitable”, a prosecutor has said

www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk

 

[Baby baby Jane]

If you plead guilty in the US, you lose all your rights. Personally, I think he should have been tried as a child or tried as an adult and not on the basis of a guilty plea. Being a black adolescent, in a southern state in the 90s, suspected of a violent sexual assault, is not a good place to be. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, if his crime had been in the UK, he would not have received 40 years.

Uncomfortable with the assumption of racism because Florida (Broward County -Ft Lauderdale) is in the “South”. Geographically yes, it’s South, but parts of Florida, not so much considered “Southern.” Any Americans on this chat care to weigh in….
We have no idea of the race, or racism of those involved in his case.

Last year, a 16 yr old, at time of his hammer attack (attempted murder) on peers, at Blundells school in UK was given a Life Sentence with Minimum of 12 years. It’s possible that he is never released, right? Maybe he would have been given a lighter sentence, in UK in the 1980s.

 

[Skigh]

Uncomfortable with the assumption of racism because Florida (Broward County -Ft Lauderdale) is in the “South”. Geographically yes, it’s South, but parts of Florida, not so much considered “Southern.” Any Americans on this chat care to weigh in….
We have no idea of the race, or racism of those involved in his case.

Last year, a 16 yr old, at time of his hammer attack (attempted murder) on peers, at Blundells school in UK was given a Life Sentence with Minimum of 12 years. It’s possible that he is never released, right? Maybe he would have been given a lighter sentence, in UK in the 1980s.

I cannot see how racism comes into this. He must have been identified by the victims as he was a neighbour. He violently attacked two people. The States have always had longer sentences than the U.K. He only served 22 years of his sentence.

 

[jackal67]

I cannot see how racism comes into this. He must have been identified by the victims as he was a neighbour. He violently attacked two people. The States have always had longer sentences than the U.K. He only served 22 years of his sentence.

Exactly !

 

[Carriep]

Death of baby of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon was ‘inevitable’, court hears

Constance Marten, 38, and Mark Gordon, 50, are charged with the manslaughter of their baby daughter Victoria.

www.theargus.co.uk

"The prosecution had alleged Victoria died from hypothermia or was smothered while co-sleeping in a “flimsy” tent, despite past warnings."

"death was inevitable"

Given that tent sturdiness or the lack of it surely has no effect on whether an instance of co-sleeping ends in death, and given that we are considering an alternative to hypothermia as the cause of death here, the logic here seems to suggest IMO that any parent who co-sleeps with their baby and accidentally smothers the baby should be convicted of manslaughter.

Crudely: if there's co-sleeping and then there's accidental smothering, the idea here is that the mother should always be convicted of manslaughter. I wonder how many mothers would be jailed each year if this were kept to.

Inevitability of death does not seem to me to be the strongest plank in the prosecution's case.

 

[Carriep]

On Monday, prosecutor Tom Little KC said: “The one thing that these two defendants have not done is have their account tested, have they?
“They’ve acted as a team… refused to have their accounts tested and probed.”
Baby Victoria “never stood a chance”, the prosecution added.

Mr Little told the jury the defendants “sought to mask the reality to you” and were “picking and choosing what questions to answer”.
“In short, hoping, we would suggest, to trick you,” he said.

Of Marten, Mr Little said “lies fall from her mouth, we suggest, and have always done, like confetti floating in the wind”.

The prosecution said baby Victoria “would still be alive if the defendants had not gone on to the South Downs”.
He said: “Had these two defendants stayed at the side of the M61… the baby would still be alive.”

Mr Little said: “This case is about very serious failings to look after a baby, this case is about significant risks.”

Constance Marten trial: 'Had you stayed at the side of M61 - the baby would be alive'

Wealthy aristocrat Constance Marten and her convicted rapist partner “sought to mask the reality” to the jury and were “picking and choosing what questions to answer”, a prosecutor has said.

uk.news.yahoo.com

This piece quotes some more of what Little said:

Death of baby of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon was ‘inevitable’, court hears

Constance Marten, 38, and Mark Gordon, 50, are charged with the manslaughter of their baby daughter Victoria.

www.expressandstar.com

Mr Little said “in some ways this case, despite how long it has lasted, is very simple and straight forward” and said that the baby would still be alive had they not begun camping in January 2023.

He added: “That is a cold hard fact in this case

(BBM)

Had they not camped, the baby would be alive now. He calls that a fact.

Okay, I am quoting what is only journalism and probably contains errors, and perhaps he followed it with a standard hedge such as "you may decide, members of the jury", but nonetheless such a counterfactual conditional statement as is quoted here seems IMO to be very much outside of the "fact" category.

 

[Alyce]

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[jackal67]

Death of baby of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon was ‘inevitable’, court hears

Constance Marten, 38, and Mark Gordon, 50, are charged with the manslaughter of their baby daughter Victoria.

www.theargus.co.uk

Given that tent sturdiness or the lack of it surely has no effect on whether an instance of co-sleeping ends in death, and given that we are considering an alternative to hypothermia as the cause of death here, the logic here seems to suggest IMO that any parent who co-sleeps with their baby and accidentally smothers the baby should be convicted of manslaughter.

Crudely: if there's co-sleeping and then there's accidental smothering, the idea here is that the mother should always be convicted of manslaughter. I wonder how many mothers would be jailed each year if this were kept to.

Inevitability of death does not seem to me to be the strongest plank in the prosecution's case.

We do not know the cause of death because they chose to put Victorias body in a rubbish bag! Refused to tell police where her body was ! Why did they do this if Victoria died from natural causes ?
The fact they were living in a tent is relevant to the cause of death whether from hypothermia or suffocation . Co sleeping in a comfortable bed in a warm home is completely different to sleeping sitting upright in a tent in Winter with the child inside your coat to keep it warm because you have not provided the child with a safe place to sleep or clothes to keep her warm ! We also only have CMs version of how Victoria died

 

[jackal67]

Death of baby of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon was ‘inevitable’, court hears

Constance Marten, 38, and Mark Gordon, 50, are charged with the manslaughter of their baby daughter Victoria.

www.theargus.co.uk

Given that tent sturdiness or the lack of it surely has no effect on whether an instance of co-sleeping ends in death, and given that we are considering an alternative to hypothermia as the cause of death here, the logic here seems to suggest IMO that any parent who co-sleeps with their baby and accidentally smothers the baby should be convicted of manslaughter.

Crudely: if there's co-sleeping and then there's accidental smothering, the idea here is that the mother should always be convicted of manslaughter. I wonder how many mothers would be jailed each year if this were kept to.

Inevitability of death does not seem to me to be the strongest plank in the prosecution's case.

I wonder how many mothers each year take their new borns to camp in a tent in the middle of winter without adequate warm clothing and a safe cot to sleep in so put the baby inside their coat and then fall asleep sitting up and smother the baby ??

 

[Lucy6226]

I wonder how many mothers each year take their new borns to camp in a tent in the middle of winter without adequate warm clothing and a safe cot to sleep in so put the baby inside their coat and then fall asleep sitting up and smother the baby ??

Exactly this!

Co-sleeping is safe/r when following the guidelines. The guidelines do not include a baby dressed in just a baby grow, sleeping inside the mother's coat, in a thin tent in January!

 

[Megnut]

I wonder how many mothers each year take their new borns to camp in a tent in the middle of winter without adequate warm clothing and a safe cot to sleep in so put the baby inside their coat and then fall asleep sitting up and smother the baby ??

And then rubbish their baby.

 

[Cherwell]

We do not know the cause of death because they chose to put Victorias body in a rubbish bag! Refused to tell police where her body was ! Why did they do this if Victoria died from natural causes ?

If they had something to hide relating to her death, they would surely have buried her body.