GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged in death of baby Victoria, GUILTY on all counts incl retrial on manslaughter, 5 Jan 2023 #9

[Yellowbelly]

Just spotted this gem in the Daily Mail article -

"Loathed even by their own lawyers, the pair frequently sacked their legal representatives, humiliating them from the dock by firing them on the spot.

Astonishingly, Marten and Gordon went through a total of 19 lawyers during the trials, many of whom were visibly relieved to escape their clients' impossible demands, with one lawyer overheard to describe them as the 'worst defendants I have ever dealt with'.

Another barrister was dispensed within ten minutes of being instructed by the capricious pair."

So they would sit there in court and sack their lawyers in full view of the jury. Unbelievable!

How Constance Marten and Mark Gordon tried to 'sabotage' their trial

The conditions were 'freezing', the food 'inadequate' and the days long, sometimes 19 hours with little or no rest.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Skigh]

Just spotted this gem in the Daily Mail article -

"Loathed even by their own lawyers, the pair frequently sacked their legal representatives, humiliating them from the dock by firing them on the spot.

Astonishingly, Marten and Gordon went through a total of 19 lawyers during the trials, many of whom were visibly relieved to escape their clients' impossible demands, with one lawyer overheard to describe them as the 'worst defendants I have ever dealt with'.

Another barrister was dispensed within ten minutes of being instructed by the capricious pair."

So they would sit there in court and sack their lawyers in full view of the jury. Unbelievable!

How Constance Marten and Mark Gordon tried to 'sabotage' their trial

The conditions were 'freezing', the food 'inadequate' and the days long, sometimes 19 hours with little or no rest.

www.dailymail.co.uk

They are both totally despicable. Rude and entitled without an iota of thought or respect for anyone else.

 

[Scorpiette]

Just spotted this gem in the Daily Mail article -

"Loathed even by their own lawyers, the pair frequently sacked their legal representatives, humiliating them from the dock by firing them on the spot.

Astonishingly, Marten and Gordon went through a total of 19 lawyers during the trials, many of whom were visibly relieved to escape their clients' impossible demands, with one lawyer overheard to describe them as the 'worst defendants I have ever dealt with'.

Another barrister was dispensed within ten minutes of being instructed by the capricious pair."

So they would sit there in court and sack their lawyers in full view of the jury. Unbelievable!

How Constance Marten and Mark Gordon tried to 'sabotage' their trial

The conditions were 'freezing', the food 'inadequate' and the days long, sometimes 19 hours with little or no rest.

www.dailymail.co.uk

In full view of the jurors? Wow.

 

[Sherlockhames]

In full view of the jurors? Wow.

Hardly going to endear themselves to the jury with that behaviour then! Madness.

 

[rockthecasbah]

How long did the jury take to decide?

 

[Rusty Braincells]

IKWYM but she must have lost her mind surely? We know she was not always thus and we know that he had this offence since his teens so the person who was a sick, evil, violent, predator was definitely him. She must have been mentally corrupted by him because she surely did not start out like that? The fact she had such wealth, privilege, means, goes to prove the level of brainwashing, en-training, power and hold he had over her. It is said that people who fall into cults but escape are far more likely to also fall into cults again or be victims of con artists in the future than the average person because it's an emotional vulnerability that defies logic and experience. JMO MOO

Whatever happened to CM, goes without my first and foremost thought is that there should be justice for the baby and this sentence is the right thing.

I’m not convinced that CM “lost her mind.” I have no idea what she was like before she met MG, but quite honestly she could just be a deeply unpleasant person and/or someone who makes extremely poor and selfish choices. Plenty of wealthy and privileged people fall in that bracket and, as despicable as MG is, and he most certainly is, he may not have brainwashed CM at all. She may simply not care about her children as much as the attention she received from her boyfriend. There could be even more sinister reasons why she was interested in MG.

And sometimes in these sad cases, a witness — friend, family member, etc can be found who will claim (rightly or wrongly but at least they must have got the impression somehow) that the misguided mother in question was an “amazing mum” before X, Y or Z went wrong, or absent the influence of a particular man — but I haven’t heard about that in this case.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Have you read the family court papers that have now been published.? The judge agreed that MG was violent but said in her opinion CM was the dominant one of the pair. It is an interesting read for sure. He was in prison for 20 weeks after the birth of the first baby, She was in a mother and baby placement so could easily have stayed away from him as she had support for herself and the babyand they were safe
But no when he was released she went to visit him and left the baby for 17 hours!
I believe that if she had a mental health illness it would have been picked up long ago.
She chose him over her kids time and time again

Her money certainly gave her power.

IMO she has something MH going on, & you can’t get a diagnosis, if you don’t seek help (or don’t comply).
Never needing to work / living nomadic & potentially socially isolated lifestyle allows a person to never confront “shortcomings”. As long as the daddy-bear is telling you that you are perfect … then you are!

 

[Sherlockhames]

How long did the jury take to decide?

Constance Marten and partner guilty of killing baby daughter on the run in winter

Baby Victoria was deprived of warmth and shelter during her short life, a court is told, after her parents took her ‘off-grid’

www.independent.co.uk

14 hours 32 mins of deliberations.

But I think that took place over a number of days because the trial overran (again) so they needed access to court 6 for whenever a verdict was ready so have been coming and going for a week or so I think( and possibly CM hasn’t been turning up to court?!)

 

[Maltesepuppy]

Have you read the family court papers that have now been published.? The judge agreed that MG was violent but said in her opinion CM was the dominant one of the pair. It is an interesting read for sure. He was in prison for 20 weeks after the birth of the first baby, She was in a mother and baby placement so could easily have stayed away from him as she had support for herself and the babyand they were safe
But no when he was released she went to visit him and left the baby for 17 hours!
I believe that if she had a mental health illness it would have been picked up long ago.
She chose him over her kids time and time again

I'm with you that CM has prioritised MG over and over.
After giving birth to their first baby she knew him to be violent to the police officers. Found out about his past (if she didn't know already). She was the "breadwinner" (was he actually bringing any regular income at all?). She was in a mother and baby placement so professionals must have discussed with her the risks of domestic abuse, yet she couldn't wait to go to him the moment he was released from a violent crime.
She then covered for him despite risking her life and her unborn baby and deliberately trying to stop her from getting medical assistance.
Even when they got arrested she showed more concern about his wellbeing than she did when manhandling Victoria into the pram.
My 2 cents is that CM has always thrived in "rebelling" against authorities and MG has given her the perfect reason to do this.

And although late to the party, I wanted to share how relieved I am for the verdicts. Baby Victoria was keep hidden from conception, treated as a commodity, had a short life of suffering and was discarded like a piece of rubbish.
I'm glad the justice system has acknowledged how important she was and how deserving of justice.

May mayonnaise prison taste as disgusting as cat excrement.

 

[Skigh]

From lady to tramp: £2.4m Constance Marten ended up scavenging in bins

From the dock of the Old Bailey, Constance Marten repeatedly insisted that she and Mark Gordon were good parents. But the official record of what actually happened paints a very different picture...

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Alyce]

How long did the jury take to decide?

By my calculations it was approx 3.5 days although I suspect it was less than this in actual deliberation time.
Calling in the verdict at 2pm today would mean that they had probably reached their decisions by midday and the delay was to allow time for everyone involved to return to court, plus Judges usually wont take a verdict between 1 and 2pm.

 

[jackal67]

I’m not convinced that CM “lost her mind.” I have no idea what she was like before she met MG, but quite honestly she could just be a deeply unpleasant person and/or someone who makes extremely poor and selfish choices. Plenty of wealthy and privileged people fall in that bracket and, as despicable as MG is, and he most certainly is, he may not have brainwashed CM at all. She may simply not care about her children as much as the attention she received from her boyfriend. There could be even more sinister reasons why she was interested in MG.

And sometimes in these sad cases, a witness — friend, family member, etc can be found who will claim (rightly or wrongly but at least they must have got the impression somehow) that the misguided mother in question was an “amazing mum” before X, Y or Z went wrong, or absent the influence of a particular man — but I haven’t heard about that in this case.

I’m not convinced that CM “lost her mind.” I have no idea what she was like before she met MG, but quite honestly she could just be a deeply unpleasant person and/or someone who makes extremely poor and selfish choices. Plenty of wealthy and privileged people fall in that bracket and, as despicable as MG is, and he most certainly is, he may not have brainwashed CM at all. She may simply not care about her children as much as the attention she received from her boyfriend. There could be even more sinister reasons why she was interested in MG.

And sometimes in these sad cases, a witness — friend, family member, etc can be found who will claim (rightly or wrongly but at least they must have got the impression somehow) that the misguided mother in question was an “amazing mum” before X, Y or Z went wrong, or absent the influence of a particular man — but I haven’t heard about that in this case.

Exactly my opinion too. She showed what a horrible selfish entitled person she is during the trial.
I certainly dont think she was brainwashed or a victim of MG.

 

[Obergine]

In all of this I have no concept why they chose to live in squalor. Was it simply because neither of them had ever had to pick up after themselves and didn't know how to?

 

[Anxala]

Why could she not have done the right thing and stayed well away from him!! She and the baby were safe and being cared for. The violent rapist had been to prison for assaulting 2 female police officers
But no she put him first as always. She disgusts me more than him and thats saying something MOO

I think that's a very subjective and symplistic view of two people who were clearly not operating on remotely full cylinders for the entirety of their effed-up relationship.

That's not me making excuses for either of them, that's me just objectively looking, in the light of the new info available to us post-verdict, at the clearly delusional mess the pair of them were from the off, and how and why they ended up where they currently are.

 

[Deleted member 367833]

Who said what to persuade her? Was it true? What effect did it have afterwards?

According to Sky News she stayed in Ireland" until a court order in December 2019 forced her to return" and then "in January 2020, two children were taken into care".

Why did Constance Marten and Mark Gordon go on the run? Why their older children went into care - and why they thought it would happen again

Constance Marten said she went on the run because there was "no way I was going to part with my child". With their four older children in care, would baby Victoria have been removed? Sky News looks at the couple's motivations and how the family court system works.

news.sky.com

It seems this was related to Napier Marten's application for a court wardship. According to Sky "When this application was granted, it meant Marten had to return from Ireland."

 

[Rusty Braincells]

I think that's a very subjective and symplistic view of two people who were clearly not operating on remotely full cylinders for the entirety of their effed-up relationship.

That's not me making excuses for either of them, that's just me objectively looking at the clearly delusional mess the pair of them were and how and why they ended up where they currently are.

Not the OP, but I think it’s also subjective to think this was a mental health issue or a delusion, as opposed to simply two selfish people who couldn’t care less about their kids. We often look for bigger answers but some people just don’t care for their children the way they should, or are even worse parents than that. We will see if mental health evidence is submitted pre-sentencing.

 

[Yellowbelly]

According to Sky News she stayed in Ireland" until a court order in December 2019 forced her to return" and then "in January 2020, two children were taken into care".

Why did Constance Marten and Mark Gordon go on the run? Why their older children went into care - and why they thought it would happen again

Constance Marten said she went on the run because there was "no way I was going to part with my child". With their four older children in care, would baby Victoria have been removed? Sky News looks at the couple's motivations and how the family court system works.

news.sky.com

Sounds interesting. Not an arrest warrant, but an order forcing her return.

What sort of order issued by a British court would be enforceable in the Republic of Ireland, given that it's an entirely separate jurisdiction?

 

[CaptainNancy]

Have the actual papers been published? The BBC write-up is here:

Court papers reveal Constance Marten and Mark Gordon’s failures as parents

A years-long court case, which ended with the couple's four children being taken into care, can now be reported.

www.bbc.co.uk

"Judge Reardon said (...) 'The strong impression given by the parents is that of two people who are fiercely united in an unrelenting struggle against a non-existent opponent'."

That is saying they are psychotic. Having a delusional system of that kind is psychosis. I don't think they are anything of the kind, but that is what is being said here. It cannot at the one and the same time be true that two people are fiercely united in an unrelenting struggle against an opponent who does not exist and they are not psychotic.

I don’t think we can diagnose people as psychotic unless we are qualified and have done a proper examination.

I have a relative who fits exactly the description of struggling against imagined slights, wrongs, personal and official opponents, and has numerous similarities to behaviour reported by CM , and my non expert armchair psychology leads me straight to Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

This relative is capable of significant harm as a result of their stance

 

[Lucy6226]

What sort of order issued by a British court would be enforceable in the Republic of Ireland, given that it's an entirely separate jurisdiction?

Detailed in the link...

'An interim care order was made. This can only be issued if a child has suffered or is at risk of suffering significant harm, and gives the local authority shared parental responsibility so it can make decisions about the child's welfare and where they live'

 

[Yellowbelly]

Not the OP, but I think it’s also subjective to think this was a mental health issue or a delusion, as opposed to simply two selfish people who couldn’t care less about their kids. We often look for bigger answers but some people just don’t care for their children the way they should, or are even worse parents than that. We will see if mental health evidence is submitted pre-sentencing.

One of her own lawyers clearly thought she was mentally ill -

"Meanwhile, Marten refused to be cross examined by the prosecutor, calling him 'diabolical', to the concern of her own lawyer, who suggested she was 'not fit to give evidence' and 'needed to see a psychiatrist'.

Marten shouted back: 'I will refuse to see a psychiatrist. I want to give evidence,' before less than 30 seconds later declaring: 'I don't want to give evidence.'"

How Constance Marten and Mark Gordon tried to 'sabotage' their trial

The conditions were 'freezing', the food 'inadequate' and the days long, sometimes 19 hours with little or no rest.

www.dailymail.co.uk