GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged in death of baby Victoria, GUILTY on all counts incl retrial on manslaughter, 5 Jan 2023 #9

[Parker Knoll]

Somewhat disappointing that the judge (or any person in charge of the proceedings in a room) could not resist being sarcastic, and he should know that needing to read the relevant part of a document isn't the same as needing to read it all.

He also seems to imply that Mark Gordon wouldn't understand what he read.

How Constance Marten and Mark Gordon tried to 'sabotage' their trial

The conditions were 'freezing', the food 'inadequate' and the days long, sometimes 19 hours with little or no rest.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Strange reaction.

After the utter farce that these two cretins tried to turn the court into I think Judge Lucraft was thoroughly restrained to be perfectly honest.
He’s the Recorder of London - treat him and his court with the utmost respect.

And as for Gordon understanding or not - it’s not entirely a reach here, he’s not the sharpest tool in the box as evidenced time and time again, I suspect he has learning difficulties but he understands violence all right.

The pair of them are absolutely where they belong and I for one hope it’s a very long sentence where they can focus on the absolutely horrific treatment of their baby daughter and possibly show some remorse ? Doubtful but we live in hope.

They chose this chaos … they had all their other children taken into care and violence has followed him everywhere from 14 years of age.
Even after spending twenty years in prison in the US he hadn’t learnt his lesson and the violence continued - throwing his pregnant girlfriend out of a window could have easily killed her but doesn’t seemed to have bothered him - just one of the many incidents now coming to light.

He’s a and a psychopath and I have no words for her - literally no words.

 

[Deleted member 367833]

My goodness, that Tegrelaugh article has a LOT of statements sourced to friends of CM's family, "a source close to the family", etc., or that derive from someone with reliable knowledge of applications made by family members to US authorities, what they knew when, what they discovered when, how her father instructed a solicitor in relation to driving offences and parking fines, what the trustees of the trust fund did and thought, when it was that her brother contacted her father, when it was that her father became concerned, what her father did when, what her father offered to do (employ a nanny to look after the children), how her family have let it be known they're still there for her, how her father would prefer it if she goes to a "secure mental establishment" but his "door will always be open", and so on.

There may be some kind of pattern in the above.

I wonder what a person who has spoken at such great length to the Telegraph might be trying to achieve that they couldn't achieve by other means and without speaking at great length to the Telegraph.

https://archive.ph/JD4cf

 

[AcerPacer]

My goodness, that Tegrelaugh article has a LOT of statements sourced to friends of CM's family, "a source close to the family", etc., or that derive from someone with reliable knowledge of applications made by family members to US authorities, what they knew when, what they discovered when, how her father instructed a solicitor in relation to driving offences and parking fines, what the trustees of the trust fund did and thought, when it was that her brother contacted her father, when it was that her father became concerned, what her father did when, what her father offered to do (employ a nanny to look after the children), how her family have let it be known they're still there for her, how her father would prefer it if she goes to a "secure mental establishment" but his "door will always be open", and so on.

There may be some kind of pattern in the above.

I wonder what a person who has spoken at such great length to the Telegraph might be trying to achieve that they couldn't achieve by other means and without speaking at great length to the Telegraph.

https://archive.ph/JD4cf

You seem a little disgruntled in this post and many of your others made in the 14 days since you joined, are you disappointed with this verdict? What outcome would you have preferred?
Would you prefer if the MSM didn't print articles giving details of how her parents attempted to help her or do you not think his words are true?

 

[Skigh]

My goodness, that Tegrelaugh article has a LOT of statements sourced to friends of CM's family, "a source close to the family", etc., or that derive from someone with reliable knowledge of applications made by family members to US authorities, what they knew when, what they discovered when, how her father instructed a solicitor in relation to driving offences and parking fines, what the trustees of the trust fund did and thought, when it was that her brother contacted her father, when it was that her father became concerned, what her father did when, what her father offered to do (employ a nanny to look after the children), how her family have let it be known they're still there for her, how her father would prefer it if she goes to a "secure mental establishment" but his "door will always be open", and so on.

There may be some kind of pattern in the above.

I wonder what a person who has spoken at such great length to the Telegraph might be trying to achieve that they couldn't achieve by other means and without speaking at great length to the Telegraph.

https://archive.ph/JD4cf

I have no idea what you are trying to say. I just see that now the pigeons have finally come home to roost with a guilty verdict then background information is able to be released by the press.

 

[Deleted member 367833]

This has nothing to do with the death of Victoria

In your opinion. It probably has far more to do with it than other things mentioned in the article such as that "Marten’s paternal grandmother, Mary Anna Marten, was the god-daughter of the late Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother and a playmate to Princess Margaret, while Napier himself was a page to the late Queen."

 

[Parker Knoll]

With respect

In your opinion. It probably has far more to do with it than other things mentioned in the article such as that "Marten’s paternal grandmother, Mary Anna Marten, was the god-daughter of the late Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother and a playmate to Princess Margaret, while Napier himself was a page to the late Queen."

I’m not sure I follow you here -
What has that got to do with the death of Victoria ?

 

[Deleted member 367833]

You seem a little disgruntled in this post and many of your others made in the 14 days since you joined, are you disappointed with this verdict? What outcome would you have preferred?
Would you prefer if the MSM didn't print articles giving details of how her parents attempted to help her or do you not think his words are true?

I am just commenting on the piece in the MSM and don't doubt that it accurately reflects what the Telegraph received from its source. That the source spoke to the Telegraph at such great length is I think remarkable - uncommon after a conviction for such serious offences - and what the person is seeking to achieve is a legitimate question.

 

[Rusty Braincells]

But Gordon didn't ask to read a passage. Archbold Criminal Pleading, Evidence and Practice is the title of the whole book. I initially took the part you quoted to mean he wanted to read a chapter from Archbold called 'criminal pleading, evidence and practice' but no - that's just the name of the book. Gordon quite literally is saying he wants to read the whole book, 3500 pages, before he will allow the trial to proceed.

Considering the amount of higher education needed to fully comprehend that book, it's not a stretch to say Gordon wouldn't have understood it. But that's not what the judge was implying anyway.

JMO - play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Gordon was clearly trying to delay the trial (which is what both of them did continuously throughout) and the judge quite rightly put forward valid reasons to dismiss his attempts. Even your own link says Gordon tried to hold things up by claiming he needed to read irrelevant legislation.

I agree with you. And it’s also perhaps worth noting that the current editor of Archbold is… you guessed it… His Honour Judge Mark Lucraft KC. The judge will certainly have understood the request from MG.

 

[Deleted member 367833]

With respect


I’m not sure I follow you here -
What has that got to do with the death of Victoria ?

I am saying I think the relationship CM had with her family fed into events that led her to avoid the eye of the authorities (just as one factor), and that being put into a residential institution at a young age (eight, if I recall) for most of each year (a "boarding school") is likely to have been an important factor in the course of her relationship with her family and in particular with her parents (which I would say for everyone who has been sent to boarding school). I hadn't realised either of those two opinions would be controversial.

Also I think the family stuff here is far more relevant than tenuous "Kevin Bacon"-type chains of connections leading to the royal family.

PS I forgot to mention that according to that piece in the Telegraph, "one family member" says CM and MG took ayahuasca in Peru. At least whales don't get a look-in.

 

[Lucy6226]

I am saying I think the relationship CM had with her family fed into events that led her to avoid the eye of the authorities (just as one factor), and that being put into a residential institution at a young age (eight, if I recall) for most of each year (a "boarding school") is likely to have been an important factor in the course of her relationship with her family and in particular with her parents (which I would say for everyone who has been sent to boarding school). I hadn't realised either of those two opinions would be controversial.

Also I think the family stuff here is far more relevant than tenuous "Kevin Bacon"-type chains of connections leading to the royal family.

Plenty of people go to boarding school, very common amongst the elite. Plenty of people have difficult relationships with their parents. Plenty of these people don't continue to put multiple children in danger and be involved in the death of one. Moo

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Have you read the family court papers that have now been published.? The judge agreed that MG was violent but said in her opinion CM was the dominant one of the pair. It is an interesting read for sure. He was in prison for 20 weeks after the birth of the first baby, She was in a mother and baby placement so could easily have stayed away from him as she had support for herself and the babyand they were safe
But no when he was released she went to visit him and left the baby for 17 hours!
I believe that if she had a mental health illness it would have been picked up long ago.
She chose him over her kids time and time again

I didn't know this was an officially published opinion but since it's been stated then I will retract my suspicion that she's been brainwashed into a hypnotic trance state of bonding with him. How odd! I did previously speculate she was the one with the greater balance of power.

 

[Skigh]

I am saying I think the relationship CM had with her family fed into events that led her to avoid the eye of the authorities (just as one factor), and that being put into a residential institution at a young age (eight, if I recall) for most of each year (a "boarding school") is likely to have been an important factor in the course of her relationship with her family and in particular with her parents (which I would say for everyone who has been sent to boarding school). I hadn't realised either of those two opinions would be controversial.

Also I think the family stuff here is far more relevant than tenuous "Kevin Bacon"-type chains of connections leading to the royal family.

Thousands of people have attended boarding school and have not neglected their children in the cruel way she did. She chose the way she lived and behaved and had the money and connections to get any help she needed.
She could have co operated with all the people offering support and guidance so her first four children were not put into care. She did not care enough about them to even visit them. Her selfish behaviour led her to kill her fifth child.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Whatever her relationship was like with her parents and going forward “ authority “ was simply that … just like we all have our relationships with our families and respect or not authority as adults.
I can’t see how this could colour the decision THEY took leaving their dead daughter covered in soil in a Lidl bag for life in a shed ?

I’m sorry but I have no idea what the Kevin Bacon reference relates to either.

 

[Yellowbelly]

I am just commenting on the piece in the MSM and don't doubt that it accurately reflects what the Telegraph received from its source. That the source spoke to the Telegraph at such great length is I think remarkable - uncommon after a conviction for such serious offences - and what the person is seeking to achieve is a legitimate question.

Clearly, the Telegraph didn't knock that article up this afternoon. Journalists will have been sniffing around anyone connected to this case since the start of the first trial. All these articles were sat there, ready to go live as soon as the jury came back with the guilty verdicts.

What I take from the Telegraph article is CM's friends and family closing ranks - poor, sweet, lovely, if slightly eccentric Toots, having her life ruined by a couple of neferious men.

 

[Skigh]

Clearly, the Telegraph didn't knock that article up this afternoon. Journalists will have been sniffing around anyone connected to this case since the start of the first trial. All these articles were sat there, ready to go live as soon as the jury came back with the guilty verdicts.

What I take from the Telegraph article is CM's friends and family closing ranks - poor, sweet, lovely, if slightly eccentric Toots, having her life ruined by a couple of neferious men.

I imagine having seen information released in the press many of these people are re evaluating their ideas about Toots.

 

[Sherlockhames]

I’m sorry but I have no idea what the Kevin Bacon reference relates to either.

I get the Kevin Bacon thing (we’re all 6 degrees of separation to Kevin Bacon through personal links) the Daily Mail (and tbh all the MSM in the UK) doing their sensationalist thing using the tenuous links CM had to Royal Family by dint of grandparent connections etc etc to make the story seem even more salacious than it already is. Any excuse to publish pics of the royals to boost the hits on the story.

It’s sad that it should even need those links to be published - but I get that’s what MSM do for clicks. But is has absolutely zero to do with the crime they committed (suppose the Daily Mail was deprived of their usual demographic signifier of publishing her house price - since she very notoriously didn’t live in one of her own - but they have managed to publish the price of her grandmothers estate - plus ca change!)

 

[Parker Knoll]

Ahh - thanks !
I get the KB reference now.

 

[Skigh]

Killer aristocrat's estranged mum and shipping container-living dad

In court the 65-year-old Virginie heard details of how her four grandchildren had been taken in to care and a graphic description of how the fifth - baby Victoria - had died in her daughter's arms.

www.dailymail.co.uk

After his mother died in 2010, the multi-million-pound estate was split between him and his five sisters, with Mr Marten dividing his share with his own children. The court heard that Marten was receiving sums of up to £3,400 a month from a trust fund.

Although money was provided by her family to pay for a barrister in some of the early legal hearings ahead of the trial, funding was subsequently cut off, leaving Marten to turn to legal aid to cover the cost of her defence. She now owes money to lawyers who are suing her in the civil courts for non-payment.

 

[Skigh]

I get the Kevin Bacon thing (we’re all 6 degrees of separation to Kevin Bacon through personal links) the Daily Mail (and tbh all the MSM in the UK) doing their sensationalist thing using the tenuous links CM had to Royal Family by dint of grandparent connections etc etc to make the story seem even more salacious than it already is. Any excuse to publish pics of the royals to boost the hits on the story.

It’s sad that it should even need those links to be published - but I get that’s what MSM do for clicks. But is has absolutely zero to do with the crime they committed (suppose the Daily Mail was deprived of their usual demographic signifier of publishing her house price - since she very notoriously didn’t live in one of her own - but they have managed to publish the price of her grandmothers estate - plus ca change!)

I might be alone here,but I actually find looking at people's background really interesting. I would like to know more about Gordon's family background.

 

[Nikynoo]

According to Sky News she stayed in Ireland" until a court order in December 2019 forced her to return" and then "in January 2020, two children were taken into care".

Why did Constance Marten and Mark Gordon go on the run? Why their older children went into care - and why they thought it would happen again

Constance Marten said she went on the run because there was "no way I was going to part with my child". With their four older children in care, would baby Victoria have been removed? Sky News looks at the couple's motivations and how the family court system works.

news.sky.com

It seems this was related to Napier Marten's application for a court wardship. According to Sky "When this application was granted, it meant Marten had to return from Ireland."

Was CM in Ireland on her own with the children, or was MG there too?