GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged in death of baby Victoria, GUILTY on all counts incl retrial on manslaughter, 5 Jan 2023 #9

[Skigh]

You can empathise with someone whilst still doing your duty. I think it just shows the juror cares for the fate of someone besides themselves... unlike the defendants. It's a heavy burden to pass judgement on someone, even if that person has done appalling things.

MOO

I personally find it totally inappropriate.

 

[Deleted member 367833]

According to a BBC official who cites his colleague official in the judiciary, whose source is unstated, MG said they both fell out of the window. A few questions arise. First, what injuries did he sustain? If he didn't sustain any and there is no good reason to think he has trained to be good at break falls (this is not meant flippantly - East 15 may train in stuntmanship for all I know), then that there would be good reason to doubt his account strongly. If on the other hand he had injuries to suggest that he too fell out of the window, then he probably fell out. Not that this tells us whether there was any domestic violence involved. Second, did CM corroborate MG's account on this point? Third, were the police involved? If there is even a 25% chance that a pregnant women who has been put in hospital for eight days is there as the result of violence by a known other person, I should certainly hope the police would want to question him and wouldn't leave everything up to SS. (What % does it have to reach for hospital officials to call the police??)

I will go out on a limb now, and this comes with a warning that it is wild speculation - but could the reason he didn't call 999, the reason he initially didn't let the ambulance crew in, and the reason that she "attempted" to discharge herself from hospital (whatever the verb "attempt" refers to here) be that they feared that a deliberately forced miscarriage would take place at the hospital? (Their having such a notion would fit with a few of the major features of this case.)

Court papers reveal Constance Marten and Mark Gordon’s failures as parents

A years-long court case, which ended with the couple's four children being taken into care, can now be reported.

www.bbc.co.uk

^ The sheaves fanned out in the graphic may be from the actual judgment. Was it sent to the BBC redacted?

Revealed: Constance Marten had shattered spleen in ‘domestic abuse incident’

Marten had repeatedly claimed she went on the run with her convicted rapist partner Mark Gordon to ‘protect’ their newborn daughter Victoria.

www.standard.co.uk

 

[Nikynoo]

According to a BBC official who cites his colleague official in the judiciary, whose source is unstated, MG said they both fell out of the window. A few questions arise. First, what injuries did he sustain? If he didn't sustain any and there is no good reason to think he has trained to be good at break falls (this is not meant flippantly - East 15 may train in stuntmanship for all I know), then that there would be good reason to doubt his account strongly. If on the other hand he had injuries to suggest that he too fell out of the window, then he probably fell out. Not that this tells us whether there was any domestic violence involved. Second, did CM corroborate MG's account on this point? Third, were the police involved? If there is even a 25% chance that a pregnant women who has been put in hospital for eight days is there as the result of violence by a known other person, I should certainly hope the police would want to question him and wouldn't leave everything up to SS. (What % does it have to reach for hospital officials to call the police??)

I will go out on a limb now, and this comes with a warning that it is wild speculation - but could the reason he didn't call 999, the reason he initially didn't let the ambulance crew in, and the reason that she "attempted" to discharge herself from hospital (whatever the verb "attempt" refers to here) be that they feared that a deliberately forced miscarriage would take place at the hospital? (Their having such a notion would fit with a few of the major features of this case.)

Court papers reveal Constance Marten and Mark Gordon’s failures as parents

A years-long court case, which ended with the couple's four children being taken into care, can now be reported.

www.bbc.co.uk

^ The sheaves fanned out in the graphic may be from the actual judgment. Was it sent to the BBC redacted?

Revealed: Constance Marten had shattered spleen in ‘domestic abuse incident’

Marten had repeatedly claimed she went on the run with her convicted rapist partner Mark Gordon to ‘protect’ their newborn daughter Victoria.

www.standard.co.uk

Apparently he landed on his feet and no injuries were reported. They both told the same story (more or less). The judgements that I have seen are not redacted.

 

[Deleted member 367833]

Apparently he landed on his feet and no injuries were reported. They both told the same story (more or less). The judgements that I have seen are not redacted.

Have the judgments been published somewhere? Because now I have a named BBC guy who cites them below an artistically arranged photo of a redacted judgment, and a pseudonymous person on a forum who says she has seem some that are unredacted. I would like to read them.

Edit: I see now that someone has posted some judgments to Tattle.

If the fall was 18ft and he landed on his feet, he would have been injured.

Soldiers who train to land by parachute jump from about 6ft

Is anyone interested in the fear of forced miscarriage idea? Or is this unworthy of discussion? If so I won't mention it again.

 

[choc drop]

She needed time in hospital due to the internal injuries ,particularly to her spleen. There has been no mention that she needed stitches for cuts.
Anyway in the whole scheme of things it really does not matter.

It was this quote from the BBC - I had interpreted "lacerations" as cuts, but it unclear if they are glass related or internal lacerations due to (say) broken ribs.

Court papers reveal Constance Marten and Mark Gordon’s failures as parents

A years-long court case, which ended with the couple's four children being taken into care, can now be reported.

www.bbc.co.uk

"A neighbour was woken by screaming in the early hours of the morning. When he looked outside, he saw Marten falling from a first-floor window and landing on a car.

According to the judgments, Gordon did not call 999, but someone else did. When paramedics arrived, Marten was inside the house screaming: "Help me, help me."

Marten spent eight days in hospital being treated for a shattered spleen and lacerations to a kidney. She was 14 weeks pregnant, but the baby survived.

Gordon told police officers he and Marten had both fallen out of the window while trying to fix the TV aerial, but they remained suspicious."

 

[Deleted member 367833]

It was this quote from the BBC - I had interpreted "lacerations" as cuts, but it unclear if they are glass related or internal lacerations due to (say) broken ribs.

Court papers reveal Constance Marten and Mark Gordon’s failures as parents

A years-long court case, which ended with the couple's four children being taken into care, can now be reported.

www.bbc.co.uk

"A neighbour was woken by screaming in the early hours of the morning. When he looked outside, he saw Marten falling from a first-floor window and landing on a car.

According to the judgments, Gordon did not call 999, but someone else did. When paramedics arrived, Marten was inside the house screaming: "Help me, help me."

Marten spent eight days in hospital being treated for a shattered spleen and lacerations to a kidney. She was 14 weeks pregnant, but the baby survived.

Gordon told police officers he and Marten had both fallen out of the window while trying to fix the TV aerial, but they remained suspicious."

The actual judgment is probably on a blog somewhere (and lawfully). A Reardon judgment from 20 Jan 2023 is online at Tattle - the interim care order in respect of the baby who may have been born in a car and whose parents had been seen on CCTV in East London.

I wouldn't rely on the BBC as authoritative.

 

[Scorpiette]

The actual judgment is probably on a blog somewhere (and lawfully). A Reardon judgment from 20 Jan 2023 is online at Tattle - the interim care order in respect of the baby who may have been born in a car and whose parents had been seen on CCTV in East London.

I wouldn't rely on the BBC as authoritative.

I wouldn't rely on Tattle either.

 

[Nikynoo]

The actual judgment is probably on a blog somewhere (and lawfully). A Reardon judgment from 20 Jan 2023 is online at Tattle - the interim care order in respect of the baby who may have been born in a car and whose parents had been seen on CCTV in East London.

I wouldn't rely on the BBC as authoritative.

The judgements are on this thread a few pages back.

 

[CaptainNancy]

The court judgements which give the most detail of the fall say that the neighbour was woken by screaming so looked out and then saw CM fall from the window. So called an ambulance.

No mention that MG was on the ground or outside.

 

[CaptainNancy]

Curious about the juror mouthing sorry to CM given the verdict was unanimous.

I think it was inappropriate.

But I can see how it happens. Is it a bit like Stockholm Syndrome? And however contemptuous these two have been of the jury’s time, keeping them from their jobs, their families, their lives, for all these weeks, they have also shared a space with them.

The Guardian article is good in conveying the mood of the courtroom, and as well as the shocking disclosures and facts there was also CM talking about the loss of her children and the death of Victoria. MG shed tears at one point.

From the court judgements we can see that CM is emotionally eloquent and had frequently misled police and social workers with her fluent performance. And they have professional objectivity which a jury may not have.

And even if you find someone guilty it may be hard to be directly in front of them while your decision and the word that condemns them to a long prison sentence is announced.

JMO.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Since one of their excuses was that she climbed out to fix the tv aerial ,then I do not think it is likely that she fell through the glass.

Of note that there is an actual aerial cable running directly below the window.

What if she did only tumble from the window whilst trying to fix the aerial ?

Could that be the incident that triggered their hostility to LE, authorities, SS etc? If no one believed that it was an innocent fall but it genuinely was?

JMO MOO

 

[jackal67]

Have the judgments been published somewhere? Because now I have a named BBC guy who cites them below an artistically arranged photo of a redacted judgment, and a pseudonymous person on a forum who says she has seem some that are unredacted. I would like to read them.

Edit: I see now that someone has posted some judgments to Tattle.

If the fall was 18ft and he landed on his feet, he would have been injured.

Soldiers who train to land by parachute jump from about 6ft

Is anyone interested in the fear of forced miscarriage idea? Or is this unworthy of discussion? If so I won't mention it again.

Not sure what you mean by forced miscarriage ? There was every possibility that the fall would have resulted in miscarriage or even death to CM. The facts are MG failed to call an ambulance even though CM was screaming in pain.
They could not have known that a neighbour had witnessed the fall and called 999 until the ambulance arrived

 

[jackal67]

Apparently he landed on his feet and no injuries were reported. They both told the same story (more or less). The judgements that I have seen are not redacted.

Yet the neighbour reported just a female falling from the window.so obviously another lie.
He would have injuries if it were true just from the impact . MOO

 

[jackal67]

According to a BBC official who cites his colleague official in the judiciary, whose source is unstated, MG said they both fell out of the window. A few questions arise. First, what injuries did he sustain? If he didn't sustain any and there is no good reason to think he has trained to be good at break falls (this is not meant flippantly - East 15 may train in stuntmanship for all I know), then that there would be good reason to doubt his account strongly. If on the other hand he had injuries to suggest that he too fell out of the window, then he probably fell out. Not that this tells us whether there was any domestic violence involved. Second, did CM corroborate MG's account on this point? Third, were the police involved? If there is even a 25% chance that a pregnant women who has been put in hospital for eight days is there as the result of violence by a known other person, I should certainly hope the police would want to question him and wouldn't leave everything up to SS. (What % does it have to reach for hospital officials to call the police??)

I will go out on a limb now, and this comes with a warning that it is wild speculation - but could the reason he didn't call 999, the reason he initially didn't let the ambulance crew in, and the reason that she "attempted" to discharge herself from hospital (whatever the verb "attempt" refers to here) be that they feared that a deliberately forced miscarriage would take place at the hospital? (Their having such a notion would fit with a few of the major features of this case.)

Court papers reveal Constance Marten and Mark Gordon’s failures as parents

A years-long court case, which ended with the couple's four children being taken into care, can now be reported.

www.bbc.co.uk

^ The sheaves fanned out in the graphic may be from the actual judgment. Was it sent to the BBC redacted?

Revealed: Constance Marten had shattered spleen in ‘domestic abuse incident’

Marten had repeatedly claimed she went on the run with her convicted rapist partner Mark Gordon to ‘protect’ their newborn daughter Victoria.

www.standard.co.uk

MG did not attend East 15 CM did

 

[Nikynoo]

Of note that there is an actual aerial cable running directly below the window.

What if she did only tumble from the window whilst trying to fix the aerial ?

Could that be the incident that triggered their hostility to LE, authorities, SS etc? If no one believed that it was an innocent fall but it genuinely was?

JMO MOO

No. The window incident was in November 2019. SS had been engaged since the birth of the first child in 2017.

 

[jackal67]

Of note that there is an actual aerial cable running directly below the window.

What if she did only tumble from the window whilst trying to fix the aerial ?

Could that be the incident that triggered their hostility to LE, authorities, SS etc? If no one believed that it was an innocent fall but it genuinely was?

JMO MOO

She could have fallen from the window accidently it is possible. But the evasion of authorities started way back even before the birth of baby 1.

 

[Skigh]

Of note that there is an actual aerial cable running directly below the window.

What if she did only tumble from the window whilst trying to fix the aerial ?

Could that be the incident that triggered their hostility to LE, authorities, SS etc? If no one believed that it was an innocent fall but it genuinely was?

JMO MOO

If you read the reports about their behaviour towards authorities since she gave birth to her first child then it is clear to see it began long before this incident.
It is highly unlikely she would be fixing the aerial in the early hours of the morning and the screaming would happen simultaneously to the fall ,not a while before.

 

[jackal67]

If you read the reports about their behaviour towards authorities since she gave birth to her first child then it is clear to see it began long before this incident.
It is highly unlikely she would be fixing the aerial in the early hours of the morning and the screaming would happen simultaneously to the fall ,not a while before.

The fact that they were even up at 3.30 am and wanting to watch TV is very strange IMO
I wonder if they had been drinking too MOO

 

[Skigh]

The fact that they were even up at 3.30 am and wanting to watch TV is very strange IMO
I wonder if they had been drinking too MOO

According to police reports the television was covered with a blanket so either they were not watching it or perhaps it was damaged in an argument between them.
Perhaps CM did open the window to pull aerial cable ,but to disable it rather than fix it.
It is possible she was trying to sleep and he had the tv on which was disturbing her .
We will never know because they will never reveal what really happened.

 

[Nikynoo]

The fact that they were even up at 3.30 am and wanting to watch TV is very strange IMO
I wonder if they had been drinking too MOO

I've read (I think on this thread) that CM claimed she had narcolepsy, which may account for out of the ordinary sleep patterns. I have no idea whether this is true though. I would also hazard a guess, that if neither of them we working, they may have kept to their own out of kilter routine.
ETA The untold story of why socialite Constance Marten fell for rapist Mark Gordon - she told school friends that she had been diagnosed. Nothing mentioned about CM having this condition during trial, so I guess she made it up. Who would have thought