GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged in death of baby Victoria, GUILTY on all counts incl retrial on manslaughter, 5 Jan 2023 #9

[Nikynoo]

According to police reports the television was covered with a blanket so either they were not watching it or perhaps it was damaged in an argument between them.
Perhaps CM did open the window to pull aerial cable ,but to disable it rather than fix it.
It is possible she was trying to sleep and he had the tv on which was disturbing her .
We will never know because they will never reveal what really happened.

Perhaps they didn't have a TV licence? In any case, the window incident was only one of many reasons why the children were put forward for adoption.

 

[CaptainNancy]

If I had accidentally fallen from the first floor when in the 2nd trimester of a pregnancy, and was lying on the floor screaming ‘help me , help me’ in agony, I am pretty sure that my partner would have immediately dialled 999 , and welcomed the ambulance team into the house asap.

He didn’t call an ambulance and when they did arrive he obstructed them so that they had to get police back up to enable them to tend to her.,

How on earth could such a man be trusted to care for a small child? His decision making was not safe. C could have died had the neighbour not called an ambulance. She was lucky to survive as it was. According to the account in the court papers.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Exactly.
15 minutes he procrastinated.
He’s an utter fruit loop.

 

[rockthecasbah]

If I had accidentally fallen from the first floor when in the 2nd trimester of a pregnancy, and was lying on the floor screaming ‘help me , help me’ in agony, I am pretty sure that my partner would have immediately dialled 999 , and welcomed the ambulance team into the house asap.

He didn’t call an ambulance and when they did arrive he obstructed them so that they had to get police back up to enable them to tend to her.,

How on earth could such a man be trusted to care for a small child? His decision making was not safe. C could have died had the neighbour not called an ambulance. She was lucky to survive as it was. According to the account in the court papers.

Also presumably children #1 and #2 would have been badly affected by the incident

 

[Maltesepuppy]

If I had accidentally fallen from the first floor when in the 2nd trimester of a pregnancy, and was lying on the floor screaming ‘help me , help me’ in agony, I am pretty sure that my partner would have immediately dialled 999 , and welcomed the ambulance team into the house asap.

He didn’t call an ambulance and when they did arrive he obstructed them so that they had to get police back up to enable them to tend to her.,

How on earth could such a man be trusted to care for a small child? His decision making was not safe. C could have died had the neighbour not called an ambulance. She was lucky to survive as it was. According to the account in the court papers.

Yes. This. Whether he pushed her or not he was only thinking about him and the implications with his criminal record.
Meanwhile his pregnant partner, mother of his children and "spiritual wife" was in agony on the floor.
So much for those "empathetic values" his mother instilled in him.
He has the self awareness of a toilet roll.

 

[jackal67]

I've read (I think on this thread) that CM claimed she had narcolepsy, which may account for out of the ordinary sleep patterns. I have no idea whether this is true though. I would also hazard a guess, that if neither of them we working, they may have kept to their own out of kilter routine.
ETA The untold story of why socialite Constance Marten fell for rapist Mark Gordon - she told school friends that she had been diagnosed. Nothing mentioned about CM having this condition during trial, so I guess she made it up. Who would have thought

Or it would make seem her even more unsafe to care for a baby if she really did have it and it was mentioned at trial.
IMO It was an excuse she made for always being late for work/study courses etc

 

[jackal67]

Also presumably children #1 and #2 would have been badly affected by the incident

And left in the care of MG for 8 days. 2 was still a baby I believe
Seems unlikely that CM breast fed the previous babies. Baby 1 was often left during the foster placement once for 17 hours which suggests bottle feeding. Baby 2 was said to have lost weight after the birth . Babies 3 and 4 were removed at birth
Baby 5 Victoria was breast fed we are told but breast feeding isnt always easy and doubt the lifestyle was conducive to a good milk supply, my guess is that she was severely undernourished ! MOO

 

[Zuleika]

Would access to her trust fund regular payments stop when she was arrested ?
Is that why she was granted legal aid?

 

[Nikynoo]

And left in the care of MG for 8 days. 2 was still a baby I believe
Seems unlikely that CM breast fed the previous babies. Baby 1 was often left during the foster placement once for 17 hours which suggests bottle feeding. Baby 2 was said to have lost weight after the birth . Babies 3 and 4 were removed at birth
Baby 5 Victoria was breast fed we are told but breast feeding isnt always easy and doubt the lifestyle was conducive to a good milk supply, my guess is that she was severely undernourished ! MOO

Looking at the judgement, I don't think that the children 1 and 2 being left in MGs care was seen as a risk at that time. What is interesting is that he let his probation officer into the flat, (but refused entry to SS), where it was reported the flat was clean, tidy and warm and the PO did not have any concerns.

All my babies lost weight after birth (all breast fed), I was told not to be concerned as this is usual (change from being in the womb to having to feed by mouth). I agree it is likely that breast feeding would be difficult in the conditions the couple placed themselves, I would also imagine that the baby would easily dehydrate it she was not getting enough liquid.

 

[Nikynoo]

Would access to her trust fund regular payments stop when she was arrested ?
Is that why she was granted legal aid?

My understanding is that the Trust is discretionary, so yes, the Trust can decide to stop payments at any time for any reason (subject to any conditions or obligations set out in the Trust Deed).

 

[Scorpiette]

My understanding is that the Trust is discretionary, so yes, the Trust can decide to stop payments at any time for any reason (subject to any conditions or obligations set out in the Trust Deed).

Can/should the Trust Fund be used by HMRC to help pay back the Legal Aid Bill? Maybe a clause should be introduced for all tax avoidance funds to cover legal aid in certain circumstances.

 

[Nikynoo]

Can/should the Trust Fund be used by HMRC to help pay back the Legal Aid Bill? Maybe a clause should be introduced for all tax avoidance funds to cover legal aid in certain circumstances.

When requesting legal aid, an assessment is undertaken as to affordability. If the Trust is discretionary, and can (subject to the Trust Deed) chose not to pay a beneficiary, and the beneficiary loses that source of income, and has no other source, then the beneficiary would be entitled to legal aid. The assets in the Trust do not belong to CM, so cannot be taken into account.

 

[Zuleika]

When requesting legal aid, an assessment is undertaken as to affordability. If the Trust is discretionary, and can (subject to the Trust Deed) chose not to pay a beneficiary, and the beneficiary loses that source of income, and has no other source, then the beneficiary would be entitled to legal aid. The assets in the Trust do not belong to CM, so cannot be taken into account.

Thankyou . I seem to recall an indication of this by CM herself which ran along the lines of her speaking with the person who she approached for more funding and he asked if she was still with that black chap .

i

 

[Alyce]

Thankyou . I seem to recall an indication of this by CM herself which ran along the lines of her speaking with the person who she approached for more funding and he asked if she was still with that black chap .

her family trust had told her that ‘if you have still got that black boyfriend with you, you are never going to get a property’.


www.courtnewsuk.co.uk

 

[GreekGal]

Constance Marten's astonishing rant at prosecutors from prison

Constance Marten, 37, and Mark Gordon, 50, were convicted of gross negligence manslaughter after a four-month retrial. They were also found guilty of child cruelty at an earlier trial and are due to be sentenced in September

www.birminghammail.co.uk

 

[Megnut]

Constance Marten's astonishing rant at prosecutors from prison

Constance Marten, 37, and Mark Gordon, 50, were convicted of gross negligence manslaughter after a four-month retrial. They were also found guilty of child cruelty at an earlier trial and are due to be sentenced in September

www.birminghammail.co.uk

This is rich.

Marten lamented: "The jury is told not to look me up. So it's just their word against mine. We live in a surveillance state. They know exactly what they're doing, how to make truth look like lies."

Truthsayer that she is. More like truthslayer.

JMO

 

[Deleted member 367833]

Or it would make seem her even more unsafe to care for a baby if she really did have it and it was mentioned at trial.
IMO It was an excuse she made for always being late for work/study courses etc

AFAIAA the only report that she said she had narcolepsy is the one in the Telegraph cited to anonymous friends:

"The strict Roman Catholic school placed a lot of emphasis on discipline and religion, with pupils required to obey a strict code of conduct and attend Mass regularly. But the endless list of school rules served only to fuel Marten’s rebellious streak, and she often clashed with the school authorities.

Arty rather than academic, she later told friends she had been diagnosed with narcolepsy, and despite her popularity, her school years were not always happy. She was also deeply affected at the age of nine when her father suddenly walked out on the family."

I have seen sleep difficulties described as symptoms of boarding school syndrome (I am away from home and so can't quote sources), if not narcolepsy specifically.

 

[Deleted member 367833]

And left in the care of MG for 8 days. 2 was still a baby I believe
Seems unlikely that CM breast fed the previous babies. Baby 1 was often left during the foster placement once for 17 hours which suggests bottle feeding. Baby 2 was said to have lost weight after the birth . Babies 3 and 4 were removed at birth
Baby 5 Victoria was breast fed we are told but breast feeding isnt always easy and doubt the lifestyle was conducive to a good milk supply, my guess is that she was severely undernourished ! MOO

It's normal to lose weight after birth. 10% is not unusual.

 

[Deleted member 367833]

Not sure what you mean by forced miscarriage ? There was every possibility that the fall would have resulted in miscarriage or even death to CM. The facts are MG failed to call an ambulance even though CM was screaming in pain.
They could not have known that a neighbour had witnessed the fall and called 999 until the ambulance arrived

I am still trying to arrange my thoughts about that incident and what may have happened. It's not possible that everything everyone has said about it is true. He certainly would have been injured if he fell 18 ft onto a hard surface, whether he landed on his feet or any other way. Perhaps he didn't fall at all, perhaps the drop wasn't 18ft, perhaps he was injured, perhaps something else. There seems to be a pattern of distrust of medical staff. You are definitely right that such a fall could easily have resulted in miscarriage. They were lucky it didn't. What I am suggesting is they may have thought medical staff might be going to cause a miscarriage deliberately if she stayed in hospital. (I am not suggesting medical staff would have done. I am saying perhaps they thought this.) It's also possible they thought the TV aerial was doing something other than receiving a TV signal and sending it to a TV set. (Again, I am saying perhaps they thought this.)

Just as a woman should be listened to if she says she has been attacked, the same applies if she says she hasn't.

 

[Deleted member 367833]

According to the 20 Jul 2018 judgment, point 80, the trust fund payments were frozen when CM was 8.5 months pregnant with her first child.

The reasoning, mental state, and background of the person who made that decision are not considered.

The Isabella the Traveller plan may well IMO have been first and foremost about accommodation, and could have been an emergency decision in unexpected conditions and under major stress.

A case of "leave that guy now or you can live on the ****ing street with the baby for all I care"? I think we should assume trust fund decider is not perfect and has their own emotional involvement. (The lawyer in my head helped with phrasing that sentence.)

I have been close to something of this type happening before, but it would maybe be off-topic to describe it.