GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged in death of baby Victoria, GUILTY on all counts incl retrial on manslaughter, 5 Jan 2023 #9

[Parker Knoll]

AFAIAA the only report that she said she had narcolepsy is the one in the Telegraph cited to anonymous friends:



I have seen sleep difficulties described as symptoms of boarding school syndrome (I am away from home and so can't quote sources), if not narcolepsy specifically.

Boarding school syndrome ….. Surely this is a joke now ?
The hospitals possibly causing a miscarriage ?
The TV Ariel receiving something other than Emmerdale ?

They were having the mother of all rows as witnessed by the neighbour and he launched her out of the window.
He could have killed her easily or broken pretty much every bone in her body and worse.

They wanted out of hospital because they are always on some type of mission against the world at this point and they didn’t want questions asked.

She fell asleep because she was living rough in a freezing tent after just giving birth and travelling the length and breadth of the country in cars and taxis making one catastrophic decision after the other.
All of it totally and utterly unnecessarily.
As Judge Reardon succinctly confirmed they were “ fiercely united in an unrelenting struggle against a non-existent opponent.

There are NO other scenarios, absolutely no benefit of ANY doubt here.

 

[Megnut]

https://www.cnn.com/2025/07/19/uk/constance-marten-mark-gordon-baby-death-intl

 

[Deleted member 367833]

I have read Reardon's document from 23 Feb 2021. Basically she accepts everything stated by a "professional", and when CM and MG say anything against "professionals", she says on a number of occasions that it should be disregarded because they said it (or sometimes because they wanted to say it) at bureaucratic time X rather than proper bureaucratic time Y.

If one were Reardon's intellectual mentor, one might say

1. Can you do the essay again but without using the word "professional".

2. Can you also address why you're standing on bureaucratic procedural time knowledge that is obviously going to be better known (i.e. "professionally" known - meaning they are paid to know it) by one side than the other.

3. Take a look at why you only look at the motives and personalities on one side and not the other.

 

[Deleted member 367833]

Reardon, op cit.:

"The evidence includes a photograph of the house that the family were living in at the time. It is a typical London terraced house. There is a small ledge above the front door, just below the two first floor windows."

That sounds as though it's about 9 ft up, not 18 ft up. Add 1 ft for the "just below" and that would make 10 ft up. So 9ft or 10ft according to whether we take ledge or window, and on a liberal reading of "just below".

"The police records read: "When the paramedics arrived on scene, the father Mark Gordon
was evasive, and the mother could be heard saying, 'Help me, help me'."

Huh? Why do the police records refer to the injured person and her husband by their parental status? Is that standard procedure? Sounds like more the Sun newspaper. ("Mum, 43, gets 10 tattoos".)

Someone on A&E staff sounds like brain of Britain: "Fallen out of a first floor window, so around 18 feet. Question mark if husband pushed her. Apparently according to LAS they were playing with the aerial. Crawled into living room".

"So", "playing".

"Both officers observed that an aerial was hanging loose at the front of the house. PC Hennessy said there seemed to be a wire hanging down."

Hospital "safeguarding referral":

"Concerned that there is element of coercion. Did not want to make any decisions about medical procedures without discussion with husband".

More from hospital:

"Fell from first floor window at home overnight (03.30). Patient reports that
she was trying to adjust the aerial outside her window, which involved
leaning out of the window, and balancing on the windowsill with her hand.
She reports that her hand slipped and she fell out, landing on her left side.
On questioning, she reports that she did not hit her head and did not lose
consciousness but then also reports not being able to fully recall event.
Possibility that partner pushed her out of window raised in previous
documentation. I have not directly asked C if this happened. She reports he
fell out of window at the same time as her, although he is fine with no
injuries."

I am curious about whether MG did fall out of the window. Why would he also be in a precarious position? There are possible answers to that. E.g. maybe more than two hands were needed - one had to hold two bits together while the other wielded a screwdriver, but you would need this kind of detail.

The starting position would be pregnant woman, maybe quite dominant, knows best, husband says no no don't lean out, woman says if you're not going to fix it then I will... she leans out .... arrrghhh...

Or perhaps woman not merely dominant but extremely dominant, and it's a case of I'll lean out and grab the box and you lean out too and hold those wires up where I tell you to, okay.

I am not trying to be amusing here. Just looking for scenarios that support the non-violent explanation. If there aren't any that will do the job, then I will go for the violent explanation.

 

[temporarylaw606]

I’ve been following the case from the start when they were reported as missing/on the run and have read through many news articles and the family court documentation from 2018-2023. What I am struggling to wrap my head around is where the “us against them” paranoia with regards to the hospitals and social services stems from. I appreciate MG due to his previous convictions probably had various biases against authority or government bodies. It would also make sense if perhaps both CM and MG had previous dealings with social services or a traumatic experience with them prior to the birth of their first child. But it seems like from the jump both of them were highly against any interaction with your standard antenatal healthcare and then subsequently social services.

Looking at the window fall incident in 2021, I read somewhere (not sure if it’s part of this thread) that when officers arrived and looked in the house, the TV was covered with a blanket. Hold that thought.

I read that shortly after meeting in 2016/2017 they went travelling together to South America and were ‘spiritually married’ in a ceremony in Peru. I understand in Peru it’s common as part of these marriage ceremonies to use Ayahuasca - a strong psychoactive brew, often containing DMT which induces intense hallucinations and altered states of consciousness.

Like other psychoactive substances, there is a risk that symptoms can worsen for users with a history of schizophrenia and similar mental disorders. It can also exacerbate paranoia and anxiety, sometimes on a long term basis.

Now, I have not seen any factual evidence to suggest:

A) The ceremony they took part in included the use of Ayahuasca.

B) Either of them have any underlying or known mental health disorders that have been diagnosed by a medical professional.

This is just MOO. Could it be that maybe their extreme resistance to accepting help or support from healthcare and social services, opting to live off grid, cutting off family and friends is a symptom of drug induced paranoia?

Things like the covering of the TV (if true) are very reminiscent of things that people I know who have schizophrenia or a paranoid element to a disorder have done. Then adding in CM claiming that she was trying to fix the TV aerial, thus falling out the window…could it be that the pair of them thought they were also being monitored or under surveillance through devices such as the TV. Was she trying to remove the aerial or tamper with it?

There have also been claims by CM that she believed her family had allegedly hired investigators to monitor her and even went as far as to claim they were responsible for their car exploding on the motorway. Of which none have been proven.

There are more examples from both MG and CM which are highlighted in the Family Court docs and also were brought to light in the trial.

Not at all excusing ANY actions. I guess I’m just trying to make some vague sense as to how the entire situation got this far. And more so from a mothers perspective, why CM was so against from the jump having any antenatal support from healthcare.

EDIT: To add to this, MG mum was a nurse. So why such resistance towards healthcare?

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Listening to Times “ The Trial” podcast and having a moment of “why is it always reported that the heinous criminal was an A student” … I would like to know if this is true or just what a family member says to feign ignorance of signs of trouble …. Or has The Times have actually seen the school records. Found that school in “New York” or “Florida” and saw the records from storage??

Quote from podcast:
“Mark Gordon was born in Birmingham, moved with his mother and siblings when he was young to New York. He was a brilliant school student, top of the class. His mother became concerned that maybe he was associating people with gang affiliations.

So, to get him away from New York, moved to Florida, where he was still an A grade student. Then, at the age of just 14, he broke into the house of a neighbour and repeatedly raped her over a five-hour period whilst her two young children were asleep in the room next door. He received a 40-year jail sentence, and he served 20 years of that sentence before being”
Jaded probably from no one ever saying “the rapist was a crap student, never went to class and was inappropriate to classmates”

From The Story: The trials of Constance Marten - the Saturday Story, 19 Jul 2025

 

[Maltesepuppy]

Reardon, op cit.:

"The evidence includes a photograph of the house that the family were living in at the time. It is a typical London terraced house. There is a small ledge above the front door, just below the two first floor windows."

That sounds as though it's about 9 ft up, not 18 ft up. Add 1 ft for the "just below" and that would make 10 ft up. So 9ft or 10ft according to whether we take ledge or window, and on a liberal reading of "just below".

"The police records read: "When the paramedics arrived on scene, the father Mark Gordon
was evasive, and the mother could be heard saying, 'Help me, help me'."

Huh? Why do the police records refer to the injured person and her husband by their parental status? Is that standard procedure? Sounds like more the Sun newspaper. ("Mum, 43, gets 10 tattoos".)

Someone on A&E staff sounds like brain of Britain: "Fallen out of a first floor window, so around 18 feet. Question mark if husband pushed her. Apparently according to LAS they were playing with the aerial. Crawled into living room".

"So", "playing".

"Both officers observed that an aerial was hanging loose at the front of the house. PC Hennessy said there seemed to be a wire hanging down."

Hospital "safeguarding referral":

"Concerned that there is element of coercion. Did not want to make any decisions about medical procedures without discussion with husband".

More from hospital:

"Fell from first floor window at home overnight (03.30). Patient reports that
she was trying to adjust the aerial outside her window, which involved
leaning out of the window, and balancing on the windowsill with her hand.
She reports that her hand slipped and she fell out, landing on her left side.
On questioning, she reports that she did not hit her head and did not lose
consciousness but then also reports not being able to fully recall event.
Possibility that partner pushed her out of window raised in previous
documentation. I have not directly asked C if this happened. She reports he
fell out of window at the same time as her, although he is fine with no
injuries."

I am curious about whether MG did fall out of the window. Why would he also be in a precarious position? There are possible answers to that. E.g. maybe more than two hands were needed - one had to hold two bits together while the other wielded a screwdriver, but you would need this kind of detail.

The starting position would be pregnant woman, maybe quite dominant, knows best, husband says no no don't lean out, woman says if you're not going to fix it then I will... she leans out .... arrrghhh...

Or perhaps woman not merely dominant but extremely dominant, and it's a case of I'll lean out and grab the box and you lean out too and hold those wires up where I tell you to, okay.

I am not trying to be amusing here. Just looking for scenarios that support the non-violent explanation. If there aren't any that will do the job, then I will go for the violent explanation.

Your comment about the A&E worker is really rude. They are A&E they have to work fast to prioritise safety. They don't have time to write essays about people or word their notes in perfect language.
Want to talk brain of Britain? Try MG giving 31st April as birthday or thinking the King is going to intercede for him.
And neither scenario about CM being "dominant" or not explains MG not calling and ambulance and blocking access to CM as discussed already.
There is no excuse for that...unless...CM hugely influential family spoke to NASA and managed to send him subliminal messages via the aerial making him behave that way. Sounds a bit Carrie movie, but Stranger Things have happened.

 

[Sherlockhames]

Reardon, op cit.:

"The evidence includes a photograph of the house that the family were living in at the time. It is a typical London terraced house. There is a small ledge above the front door, just below the two first floor windows."

That sounds as though it's about 9 ft up, not 18 ft up. Add 1 ft for the "just below" and that would make 10 ft up. So 9ft or 10ft according to whether we take ledge or window, and on a liberal reading of "just below".

"The police records read: "When the paramedics arrived on scene, the father Mark Gordon
was evasive, and the mother could be heard saying, 'Help me, help me'."

Huh? Why do the police records refer to the injured person and her husband by their parental status? Is that standard procedure? Sounds like more the Sun newspaper. ("Mum, 43, gets 10 tattoos".)

Someone on A&E staff sounds like brain of Britain: "Fallen out of a first floor window, so around 18 feet. Question mark if husband pushed her. Apparently according to LAS they were playing with the aerial. Crawled into living room".

"So", "playing".

"Both officers observed that an aerial was hanging loose at the front of the house. PC Hennessy said there seemed to be a wire hanging down."

Hospital "safeguarding referral":

"Concerned that there is element of coercion. Did not want to make any decisions about medical procedures without discussion with husband".

More from hospital:

"Fell from first floor window at home overnight (03.30). Patient reports that
she was trying to adjust the aerial outside her window, which involved
leaning out of the window, and balancing on the windowsill with her hand.
She reports that her hand slipped and she fell out, landing on her left side.
On questioning, she reports that she did not hit her head and did not lose
consciousness but then also reports not being able to fully recall event.
Possibility that partner pushed her out of window raised in previous
documentation. I have not directly asked C if this happened. She reports he
fell out of window at the same time as her, although he is fine with no
injuries."

I am curious about whether MG did fall out of the window. Why would he also be in a precarious position? There are possible answers to that. E.g. maybe more than two hands were needed - one had to hold two bits together while the other wielded a screwdriver, but you would need this kind of detail.

The starting position would be pregnant woman, maybe quite dominant, knows best, husband says no no don't lean out, woman says if you're not going to fix it then I will... she leans out .... arrrghhh...

Or perhaps woman not merely dominant but extremely dominant, and it's a case of I'll lean out and grab the box and you lean out too and hold those wires up where I tell you to, okay.

I am not trying to be amusing here. Just looking for scenarios that support the non-violent explanation. If there aren't any that will do the job, then I will go for the violent explanation.

I pondered questioning this earlier on in the week. The more I look at this window fall the more I do think that she maybe did just fall??!!

The circumstances are at least explicable. I can’t excuse or condone that he didn’t call an ambulance in fear of his pregnant wife falling out of a window. But it was only the first floor. But given that she apparently then made her way back inside the house, possibly by herself, (when the ambulance followed by police turned up she was inside) then she was likely ambulatory after the fall. It is therefore possible she did just get up and walk back in herself and didn’t initially recognise the seriousness of the injury she sustained. She was maybe a bit dazed and confused, but since it turns out all her injuries were internal it’s really not beyond the realms of possibility that she didn’t think she was that badly hurt. (My husband broke his ribs surfing - but didn’t realise it at the time. He just thought he had a bit of a whack by the board in the water and then carried on. But the pain came later for a couple of weeks - but since it was ribs and there wasn’t a lot that would been done we just checked out NHS 111 for signs/complications to look out for and left it at that!).

The screams may well not have been screams but just a stroppy argument, she’s saying “fine, I’ll do it myself then”, falls out of the window. Gets winded/bumped but nothing feels broken and she can get up so goes back inside. Is then incensed “nosy neighbours” have called an ambulance, who then call police. And then, unadvisedly, they refuse to cooperate. Obviously the injury was so serious that she this was a good thing they were called. But the 8 days in hospital is likely as a result of the recovery from the required operation to fix her spleen. We’ll never know whether the pain/internal bleeding would have been enough that she would have voluntarily taken herself to A&E the next day or later (slow blood loss/potential sepsis the real danger from this sort of injury). But the 8 days in hospital is in and of itself not indicative of domestic abuse - just the nature of the unfortunate injury she sustained. (I’m not excusing all the rest of the bat***t paranoia/non-cooperative behaviour. And I think their chosen lifestyle/folie a deux weirdness was right to be looked into as that doesn’t sound like the safest environment - but I could see how they were fuming not to be believed - but given their past behaviours in the face of authority unsurprising from the authorities on the look out for coercive control etc etc as their behaviour didn’t appear rational from the outside). MOO

(Also just measured the height of our first floor Victorian terrace window and it’s about 13 feet from the top of ledge to the ground. 18 feet could have been explicable from an A&E worker assuming the worst and rather than minimising the height, assuming they could have fallen from the first floor of a block of flats with steps up the front which could be a bit higher. Remember, they wouldn’t have seen the scene so have got to assume potentially the worst in order to make a proper assessment - especially if the patient is minimising the incident).

 

[jackal67]

I am still trying to arrange my thoughts about that incident and what may have happened. It's not possible that everything everyone has said about it is true. He certainly would have been injured if he fell 18 ft onto a hard surface, whether he landed on his feet or any other way. Perhaps he didn't fall at all, perhaps the drop wasn't 18ft, perhaps he was injured, perhaps something else. There seems to be a pattern of distrust of medical staff. You are definitely right that such a fall could easily have resulted in miscarriage. They were lucky it didn't. What I am suggesting is they may have thought medical staff might be going to cause a miscarriage deliberately if she stayed in hospital. (I am not suggesting medical staff would have done. I am saying perhaps they thought this.) It's also possible they thought the TV aerial was doing something other than receiving a TV signal and sending it to a TV set. (Again, I am saying perhaps they thought this.)

Just as a woman should be listened to if she says she has been attacked, the same applies if she says she hasn't.

Think it very unlikely that they thought medical staff would cause a deliberate miscarriage ,quite the opposite the hospital would have done everything possible to prevent a miscarriage.

If they were that worried about saving the pregnancy though that is debatable in my opinion Hospital was the only option.
Not calling 999 is inexcusable.
Whatever the circumstances of the fall it was their actions afterwards that caused the involvement of SS. If it was a genuine accident and given MG previous violent convictions including the maternity ward incident in 2017 which saw him serve a prison sentence why did he refuse to discuss the fall .refuse to respond to phone calls from hospital and evade social worker visits to the house in the days after the incident. If it was a genuine accident and he was entirely blameless why behave in a way that made him look guilty ?

 

[Sherlockhames]

Reardon, op cit.:

"The evidence includes a photograph of the house that the family were living in at the time. It is a typical London terraced house. There is a small ledge above the front door, just below the two first floor windows."

That sounds as though it's about 9 ft up, not 18 ft up. Add 1 ft for the "just below" and that would make 10 ft up. So 9ft or 10ft according to whether we take ledge or window, and on a liberal reading of "just below".

"The police records read: "When the paramedics arrived on scene, the father Mark Gordon
was evasive, and the mother could be heard saying, 'Help me, help me'."

Huh? Why do the police records refer to the injured person and her husband by their parental status? Is that standard procedure? Sounds like more the Sun newspaper. ("Mum, 43, gets 10 tattoos".)

Someone on A&E staff sounds like brain of Britain: "Fallen out of a first floor window, so around 18 feet. Question mark if husband pushed her. Apparently according to LAS they were playing with the aerial. Crawled into living room".

"So", "playing".

"Both officers observed that an aerial was hanging loose at the front of the house. PC Hennessy said there seemed to be a wire hanging down."

Hospital "safeguarding referral":

"Concerned that there is element of coercion. Did not want to make any decisions about medical procedures without discussion with husband".

More from hospital:

"Fell from first floor window at home overnight (03.30). Patient reports that
she was trying to adjust the aerial outside her window, which involved
leaning out of the window, and balancing on the windowsill with her hand.
She reports that her hand slipped and she fell out, landing on her left side.
On questioning, she reports that she did not hit her head and did not lose
consciousness but then also reports not being able to fully recall event.
Possibility that partner pushed her out of window raised in previous
documentation. I have not directly asked C if this happened. She reports he
fell out of window at the same time as her, although he is fine with no
injuries."

I am curious about whether MG did fall out of the window. Why would he also be in a precarious position? There are possible answers to that. E.g. maybe more than two hands were needed - one had to hold two bits together while the other wielded a screwdriver, but you would need this kind of detail.

The starting position would be pregnant woman, maybe quite dominant, knows best, husband says no no don't lean out, woman says if you're not going to fix it then I will... she leans out .... arrrghhh...

Or perhaps woman not merely dominant but extremely dominant, and it's a case of I'll lean out and grab the box and you lean out too and hold those wires up where I tell you to, okay.

I am not trying to be amusing here. Just looking for scenarios that support the non-violent explanation. If there aren't any that will do the job, then I will go for the violent explanation.

I don’t think he fell out of the window. I think it was likely just her and when she was on the ground her was straight there so she maybe assumed he did fall? Not sure he said he fell or that anyone else saw him go out of the window - so was just her confusion after falling out herself. (And potentially minimising the incident - either because he pushed her - red flag - or because she wanted to laugh it off as a stupid mistake on her part which she knew would make her look bad when there were children in the house which after the experiences she had with SS after her first born she wanted to avoid getting involved).

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Reardon, op cit.:

"The evidence includes a photograph of the house that the family were living in at the time. It is a typical London terraced house. There is a small ledge above the front door, just below the two first floor windows."

That sounds as though it's about 9 ft up, not 18 ft up. Add 1 ft for the "just below" and that would make 10 ft up. So 9ft or 10ft according to whether we take ledge or window, and on a liberal reading of "just below".

"The police records read: "When the paramedics arrived on scene, the father Mark Gordon
was evasive, and the mother could be heard saying, 'Help me, help me'."

Huh? Why do the police records refer to the injured person and her husband by their parental status? Is that standard procedure? Sounds like more the Sun newspaper. ("Mum, 43, gets 10 tattoos".)

Someone on A&E staff sounds like brain of Britain: "Fallen out of a first floor window, so around 18 feet. Question mark if husband pushed her. Apparently according to LAS they were playing with the aerial. Crawled into living room".

"So", "playing".

"Both officers observed that an aerial was hanging loose at the front of the house. PC Hennessy said there seemed to be a wire hanging down."

Hospital "safeguarding referral":

"Concerned that there is element of coercion. Did not want to make any decisions about medical procedures without discussion with husband".

More from hospital:

"Fell from first floor window at home overnight (03.30). Patient reports that
she was trying to adjust the aerial outside her window, which involved
leaning out of the window, and balancing on the windowsill with her hand.
She reports that her hand slipped and she fell out, landing on her left side.
On questioning, she reports that she did not hit her head and did not lose
consciousness but then also reports not being able to fully recall event.
Possibility that partner pushed her out of window raised in previous
documentation. I have not directly asked C if this happened. She reports he
fell out of window at the same time as her, although he is fine with no
injuries."

I am curious about whether MG did fall out of the window. Why would he also be in a precarious position? There are possible answers to that. E.g. maybe more than two hands were needed - one had to hold two bits together while the other wielded a screwdriver, but you would need this kind of detail.

The starting position would be pregnant woman, maybe quite dominant, knows best, husband says no no don't lean out, woman says if you're not going to fix it then I will... she leans out .... arrrghhh...

Or perhaps woman not merely dominant but extremely dominant, and it's a case of I'll lean out and grab the box and you lean out too and hold those wires up where I tell you to, okay.

I am not trying to be amusing here. Just looking for scenarios that support the non-violent explanation. If there aren't any that will do the job, then I will go for the violent explanation.

A few things occur to me, about “typical” London terraced house …. They are not all the same. Is there a photo available?

However, based on typical … It does NOT seem possible to me that typical terrace (no lower ground floor) would have a first floor window sill 9 feet from the outside pavement.
Typical internal ceiling height of ground floor - minimum … approx 7-8 feet
The structure would include between ground & first floor a ceiling, a cavity with support joists and flooring for first floor.
First floor window sill at least approx 3 feet from floor, they are not lower for safety reasons. (And safety bars if children in home)

Plus, ground floor not be built right on the ground, there would be a foundation and some gap. There is often one or two steps at front door.

Also, she fell into a car. If it were only 9 feet, & onto a vehicle, it seems she would have fallen only 5 feet - hardly a height for the internal lacerations (were these from an assault). CM is reportedly almost 6 feet tall … not making sense that fall was from 9 ft.

The fall was at 3:30 AM, and they were adjusting the aerial… ? When was the last time anyone under 80 yrs old adjusted an aerial in central London? Smart TV the norm. And if relying on an aerial only for free tv…. 3:30am watching dire.

As usual, their story doesn’t make sense, and there were witnesses.

Accept that the police, EMTs, A&E, Honorable Judges, have made correct assessments.

 

[Deleted member 367833]

Is there a name for the kind of press articles that are 90% repetition (usually with many errors) of what was in the press yesterday or a few days ago, plus a few cliches including in the headline or strapline?

According to the Standard, CM lived a "life of crime":

An evangelical mother and estranged siblings: the family Constance Marten left behind

Marten’s mother Virginie and brother Tobias both attended her Old Bailey trial — but where are the rest of her family, and what can the five of them tell us about her descent into a life of crime? Katie Strick reports

www.standard.co.uk

According to the Mirror, CM inflicted a "final act of cruelty" on her baby. I read the article wanting to find out what they were alleging this act was, but I am none the wiser:

Constance Marten's final act of cruelty to tragic baby who lived in Lidl bag

A killer couple's movements around the country became increasingly frantic as they tried to avoid social services - and sadly their baby was already dead by the time they was found

www.mirror.co.uk

I think they call this kind of thing "clickbait".

Another Mirror article quotes a person who taught journalism skills to CM 10 years ago and who has been employed as Head of Diploma Training at the Press Association. There are two photos of her - one outside with her dog, the other at a desk in her office. She appears to have a remarkably good memory for her students and unusual prowess at assessing their personalities and interactions with other students. She's taught thousands of journalists over the years.

'I was friends with carrier bag baby killer - her behaviour was disturbing'

Constance Marten and her partner Mark Gordon were convicted of gross negligence manslaughter of their infant daughter. Marten had previously shown an inability to connect with others

www.mirror.co.uk

Someone here predicted there would be a rash of accounts by those who knew one or both of the defendants, alleged friends or colleagues or whatever. This material is still repulsive to read. And there will probably be more.

The Daily Mail is frontrunner for winning the biscuit, though, for the sentence

"Experts have described Gordon, 50, as a sociopathic sex offender considered so dangerous that experts compared his sadistic crimes to the American serial killer Ted Bundy or Australian-American serial killer Christopher Wilder." (BBM)

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon found guilty of killing daughter

Runaway aristocrat Constance Marten and her lover Mark Gordon have been today convicted of killing their baby, Victoria.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I wonder how many weeks the author of that impressive piece of prose spent at journalism school!

Whatever view one takes of this case, CM has not lived a "life of crime", there is no reason to think she inflicted a "final act of cruelty" on her baby, and MG is not in the same category as a serial killer. But all these newspapers with their supposedly different political positions must to some extent be telling their readers what they want to hear.

 

[Skigh]

A few things occur to me, about “typical” London terraced house …. They are not all the same. Is there a photo available?

However, based on typical … It does NOT seem possible to me that typical terrace (no lower ground floor) would have a first floor window sill 9 feet from the outside pavement.
Typical internal ceiling height of ground floor - minimum … approx 7-8 feet
The structure would include between ground & first floor a ceiling, a cavity with support joists and flooring for first floor.
First floor window sill at least approx 3 feet from floor, they are not lower for safety reasons. (And safety bars if children in home)

Plus, ground floor not be built right on the ground, there would be a foundation and some gap. There is often one or two steps at front door.

Also, she fell into a car. If it were only 9 feet, & onto a vehicle, it seems she would have fallen only 5 feet - hardly a height for the internal lacerations (were these from an assault). CM is reportedly almost 6 feet tall … not making sense that fall was from 9 ft.

The fall was at 3:30 AM, and they were adjusting the aerial… ? When was the last time anyone under 80 yrs old adjusted an aerial in central London? Smart TV the norm. And if relying on an aerial only for free tv…. 3:30am watching dire.

As usual, their story doesn’t make sense, and there were witnesses.

Accept that the police, EMTs, A&E, Honorable Judges, have made correct assessments.

There are pictures of the flat posted on page 30 of this thread.

 

[jackal67]

I pondered questioning this earlier on in the week. The more I look at this window fall the more I do think that she maybe did just fall??!!

The circumstances are at least explicable. I can’t excuse or condone that he didn’t call an ambulance in fear of his pregnant wife falling out of a window. But it was only the first floor. But given that she apparently then made her way back inside the house, possibly by herself, (when the ambulance followed by police turned up she was inside) then she was likely ambulatory after the fall. It is therefore possible she did just get up and walk back in herself and didn’t initially recognise the seriousness of the injury she sustained. She was maybe a bit dazed and confused, but since it turns out all her injuries were internal it’s really not beyond the realms of possibility that she didn’t think she was that badly hurt. (My husband broke his ribs surfing - but didn’t realise it at the time. He just thought he had a bit of a whack by the board in the water and then carried on. But the pain came later for a couple of weeks - but since it was ribs and there wasn’t a lot that would been done we just checked out NHS 111 for signs/complications to look out for and left it at that!).

The screams may well not have been screams but just a stroppy argument, she’s saying “fine, I’ll do it myself then”, falls out of the window. Gets winded/bumped but nothing feels broken and she can get up so goes back inside. Is then incensed “nosy neighbours” have called an ambulance, who then call police. And then, unadvisedly, they refuse to cooperate. Obviously the injury was so serious that she this was a good thing they were called. But the 8 days in hospital is likely as a result of the recovery from the required operation to fix her spleen. We’ll never know whether the pain/internal bleeding would have been enough that she would have voluntarily taken herself to A&E the next day or later (slow blood loss/potential sepsis the real danger from this sort of injury). But the 8 days in hospital is in and of itself not indicative of domestic abuse - just the nature of the unfortunate injury she sustained. (I’m not excusing all the rest of the bat***t paranoia/non-cooperative behaviour. And I think their chosen lifestyle/folie a deux weirdness was right to be looked into as that doesn’t sound like the safest environment - but I could see how they were fuming not to be believed - but given their past behaviours in the face of authority unsurprising from the authorities on the look out for coercive control etc etc as their behaviour didn’t appear rational from the outside). MOO

(Also just measured the height of our first floor Victorian terrace window and it’s about 13 feet from the top of ledge to the ground. 18 feet could have been explicable from an A&E worker assuming the worst and rather than minimising the height, assuming they could have fallen from the first floor of a block of flats with steps up the front which could be a bit higher. Remember, they wouldn’t have seen the scene so have got to assume potentially the worst in order to make a proper assessment - especially if the patient is minimising the incident).

I agree. I have been pondering this and believe its possible she did fall,
although leaning out of a window to fix an ariel at 3.30 am while pregnant is in itself strange behaviour and may well have seemed an implausible explanation to medics,
But why on earth if this is the truth did MG not say this when asked ? Why refuse to give his version of events then and ever since
Perhaps when it first happened he didnt know what CM had told hospital staff and wanted to make sure their stories matched ?

 

[jackal67]

Is there a name for the kind of press articles that are 90% repetition (usually with many errors) of what was in the press yesterday or a few days ago, plus a few cliches including in the headline or strapline?

According to the Standard, CM lived a "life of crime":

An evangelical mother and estranged siblings: the family Constance Marten left behind

Marten’s mother Virginie and brother Tobias both attended her Old Bailey trial — but where are the rest of her family, and what can the five of them tell us about her descent into a life of crime? Katie Strick reports

www.standard.co.uk

According to the Mirror, CM inflicted a "final act of cruelty" on her baby. I read the article wanting to find out what they were alleging this act was, but I am none the wiser:

Constance Marten's final act of cruelty to tragic baby who lived in Lidl bag

A killer couple's movements around the country became increasingly frantic as they tried to avoid social services - and sadly their baby was already dead by the time they was found

www.mirror.co.uk

I think they call this kind of thing "clickbait".

Another Mirror article quotes a person who taught journalism skills to CM 10 years ago and who has been employed as Head of Diploma Training at the Press Association. There are two photos of her - one outside with her dog, the other at a desk in her office. She appears to have a remarkably good memory for her students and unusual prowess at assessing their personalities and interactions with other students. She's taught thousands of journalists over the years.

'I was friends with carrier bag baby killer - her behaviour was disturbing'

Constance Marten and her partner Mark Gordon were convicted of gross negligence manslaughter of their infant daughter. Marten had previously shown an inability to connect with others

www.mirror.co.uk

Someone here predicted there would be a rash of accounts by those who knew one or both of the defendants, alleged friends or colleagues or whatever. This material is still repulsive to read. And there will probably be more.

The Daily Mail is frontrunner for winning the biscuit, though, for the sentence

"Experts have described Gordon, 50, as a sociopathic sex offender considered so dangerous that experts compared his sadistic crimes to the American serial killer Ted Bundy or Australian-American serial killer Christopher Wilder." (BBM)

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon found guilty of killing daughter

Runaway aristocrat Constance Marten and her lover Mark Gordon have been today convicted of killing their baby, Victoria.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I wonder how many weeks the author of that impressive piece of prose spent at journalism school!

Whatever view one takes of this case, CM has not lived a "life of crime", there is no reason to think she inflicted a "final act of cruelty" on her baby, and MG is not in the same category as a serial killer. But all these newspapers with their supposedly different political positions must to some extent be telling their readers what they want to hear.

Yes it was me who predicted that there would be people coming forward to tell their stories after the verdict
This always happens after these sort of cases unfortunately either those wanting their 5 minutes of fame or hoping to get paid. It is not unique to this case
Also MSM always comes out with these sensationalist headlines and stories. As you say click bait.
Best to take it all with a large pinch of salt

 

[Sherlockhames]

But why on earth if this is the truth did MG not say this when asked ? Why refuse to give his version of events then and ever since

I think this is all as a result of their severe distrust and paranoia towards anyone in authority (possibly strengthened/heightened after the ayahuasca ceremony?)

People react in different ways I suppose - whenever my kids have any sort of injury (2 small boys so often getting scrapes/cuts/bruises/sprains etc). I am always paranoid that eg teachers at the school gate or (occasionally) nurses at A&E will be on the lookout for stuff from a safeguarding perspective so i always end up massively over-explaining how they got their bruise/cut/injury and giving a full account of all details so they can see there was an innocent explanation (although then overthink to the extent that do they suspect me of injuring my own child because I am talking too much). I suppose I just take the view I am always as open and upfront as I can be whenever I come into contact with anyone when it comes to my children so there can be no misunderstandings or suspicions. But I suspect CM and MG are the complete opposite to that and hence their lack of candour and desire not to give any explanation leads them being suspected of the worst (which in the instance of baby Victoria proved to be a well founded mistrust of their safe parenting abilities).

 

[Baby baby Jane]

There are pictures of the flat posted on page 30 of this thread.

Thank you …

Pic of the first floor window that CM was pushed/fell from

The Big Cases - The Aristocrat, the Convict and the Missing Baby

An aristocrat and her convict partner go on the run with their newborn baby. The search ends in heartbreak. Family, friends, and witnesses reveal the background to this extraordinary case.

www.bbc.co.uk

View attachment 602031

IMO - Those are not sash windows. The bottom pane on those type are typically fixed & do not open. They do not look like they open at bottom. The smaller top window opens outwards from hinges on top.
If those are the windows she “fell” out of, she needed to be on a chair inside, squeezing herself head-first thru the top window panel and reaching for an aerial? To adjust at 3am?

Maybe it’s the truth … if it is, this action alone is incredibly poor judgement … one could conclude that she was escaping.

 

[Skigh]

Thank you …

IMO - Those are not sash windows. The bottom pane on those type are typically fixed & do not open. They do not look like they open at bottom. The smaller top window opens outwards from hinges on top.
If those are the windows she “fell” out of, she needed to be on a chair inside, squeezing herself head-first thru the top window panel and reaching for an aerial? To adjust at 3am?

Maybe it’s the truth … if it is, this action alone is incredibly poor judgement … one could conclude that she was escaping.

We did debate whether the windows had been changed since the accident. It is possible that they were the old sash type windows when the accident occurred.
I think if they had been extremely difficult to exit from ,something would have been mentioned in the original police reports.

 

[Lucy6226]

The fact is these two cretins have been found guilty of all charges. People can try to analyse the court documents and wordings, but it doesn't change the fact these two are guilty of manslaughter of their newborn baby. The other children appear to have been adopted, there's no changing that fact either. They could have worked with social services and health services but they chose not to. They were made very aware of their strengths and weaknesses, they chose to do their own thing. They are guilty, we have to respect the jury's decision.

 

[Nikynoo]

Is there a name for the kind of press articles that are 90% repetition (usually with many errors) of what was in the press yesterday or a few days ago, plus a few cliches including in the headline or strapline?

According to the Standard, CM lived a "life of crime":

An evangelical mother and estranged siblings: the family Constance Marten left behind

Marten’s mother Virginie and brother Tobias both attended her Old Bailey trial — but where are the rest of her family, and what can the five of them tell us about her descent into a life of crime? Katie Strick reports

www.standard.co.uk

According to the Mirror, CM inflicted a "final act of cruelty" on her baby. I read the article wanting to find out what they were alleging this act was, but I am none the wiser:

Constance Marten's final act of cruelty to tragic baby who lived in Lidl bag

A killer couple's movements around the country became increasingly frantic as they tried to avoid social services - and sadly their baby was already dead by the time they was found

www.mirror.co.uk

I think they call this kind of thing "clickbait".

Another Mirror article quotes a person who taught journalism skills to CM 10 years ago and who has been employed as Head of Diploma Training at the Press Association. There are two photos of her - one outside with her dog, the other at a desk in her office. She appears to have a remarkably good memory for her students and unusual prowess at assessing their personalities and interactions with other students. She's taught thousands of journalists over the years.

'I was friends with carrier bag baby killer - her behaviour was disturbing'

Constance Marten and her partner Mark Gordon were convicted of gross negligence manslaughter of their infant daughter. Marten had previously shown an inability to connect with others

www.mirror.co.uk

Someone here predicted there would be a rash of accounts by those who knew one or both of the defendants, alleged friends or colleagues or whatever. This material is still repulsive to read. And there will probably be more.

The Daily Mail is frontrunner for winning the biscuit, though, for the sentence

"Experts have described Gordon, 50, as a sociopathic sex offender considered so dangerous that experts compared his sadistic crimes to the American serial killer Ted Bundy or Australian-American serial killer Christopher Wilder." (BBM)

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon found guilty of killing daughter

Runaway aristocrat Constance Marten and her lover Mark Gordon have been today convicted of killing their baby, Victoria.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I wonder how many weeks the author of that impressive piece of prose spent at journalism school!

Whatever view one takes of this case, CM has not lived a "life of crime", there is no reason to think she inflicted a "final act of cruelty" on her baby, and MG is not in the same category as a serial killer. But all these newspapers with their supposedly different political positions must to some extent be telling their readers what they want to hear.

To add to this, the ‘expert’ who likened MG to a serial killer was the counsellor of the victim, they did not assess MG himself.