GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged in death of baby Victoria, Guilty on counts 1 & 5, 2025 retrial on manslaughter, 5 Jan 2023 #8

[Lucy6226]

CM saying “going to hand the baby in” versus earlier statement about her other children being “stolen”

Clear dishonesty, she would never hand it in.

I think the wording is important here too. Hand the baby in....like it's property, an object.
I would expect something like I wanted my baby to be safe even if that meant with a foster family. Something that shows emotion, that she cared for Victoria, that she wasn't just a pawn in a FU to Social Services.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I think the wording is important here too. Hand the baby in....like it's property, an object.
I would expect something like I wanted my baby to be safe even if that meant with a foster family. Something that shows emotion, that she cared for Victoria, that she wasn't just a pawn in a FU to Social Services.

I agree the wording is important, also 'hand the baby in' means that she knew she wasn't supposed to have the baby. Hand it over - give it up - give it back - surrender. She knew she was on the run and she knew she was 'taking' a baby away from where it was supposed to be. I suppose she knew the unborn baby was on the at risk register and would be removed at birth? Perhaps this is an aspect we haven't been fully told but that had been made clear to her?

It would seem more compassionate if she spoke in terms of knowing she needed to get help for the baby (and herself). She must have known, they must have both known in advance, that they would never see that baby again and that was non-negotiable, probably off the back of the removal of the previous children. They must have also known they were looking at prison sentences. Maybe this was long since established and clearly warned to them? I know we can't be told specifics about the previous children but things were far worse than one would even imagine?

JMO MOO

 

[CaptainNancy]

I wonder if they ditched the buggy as it drew attention to them as having a baby with them and therefore more identifiable.

I think the baby was still alive by then because at least one (and possibly two) taxi drivers saw her and heard her make noise after that. I think the Green Lanes one? Can’t remember about the one who took them to the S Coast.

In the first trial she insisted the baby was under Mark’s coat after they Dutches the buggy.

Controversial I know, but compared to off grid camping in a flimsy tent with no insulation or hygiene facilities, in winter, I don’t see carrying a child in a sturdy bag as an especially bad thing to do, per se. IF she was thoroughly bundled up in warm clothing and could breathe freely etc.

But there was no record of them purchasing baby blankets etc, and we saw the cotton baby gro she was wearing in the doner kebab shop, and at the last trial, the thin cotton babygro she wore when she died.

 

[CaptainNancy]

Re the talk of handing her in: in saying they only meant to do this for a very short time, and even considered handing themselves in, and in her admission last week that knowing now how it turned out she wishes they had made different choices… doesn’t this add up to an acknowledgment that they were undertaking an approach which was risky, and that those risks did lead to the death of the baby?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I wonder if they ditched the buggy as it drew attention to them as having a baby with them and therefore more identifiable.

I think the baby was still alive by then because at least one (and possibly two) taxi drivers saw her and heard her make noise after that. I think the Green Lanes one? Can’t remember about the one who took them to the S Coast.

In the first trial she insisted the baby was under Mark’s coat after they Dutches the buggy.

Controversial I know, but compared to off grid camping in a flimsy tent with no insulation or hygiene facilities, in winter, I don’t see carrying a child in a sturdy bag as an especially bad thing to do, per se. IF she was thoroughly bundled up in warm clothing and could breathe freely etc.

But there was no record of them purchasing baby blankets etc, and we saw the cotton baby gro she was wearing in the doner kebab shop, and at the last trial, the thin cotton babygro she wore when she died.

Re the buggy, I think it was said they ditched it as cab drivers would not wish to take them with a baby and a buggy in tow. I'd have thought the opposite, that black cab drivers are probably highly trained to facilitate babies etc and might consider them a more reliable fare.

Seems they probably realised a buggy was going to bring them attention for having a baby?

 

[Lucy6226]

Re the buggy, I think it was said they ditched it as cab drivers would not wish to take them with a baby and a buggy in tow. I'd have thought the opposite, that black cab drivers are probably highly trained to facilitate babies etc and might consider them a more reliable fare.

Seems they probably realised a buggy was going to bring them attention for having a baby?

Exactly. Black cabs are perfect for just wheeling the buggy in, don't even have to fold it up. Same with wheelchairs.

 

[CaptainNancy]

But the cost of a black cab to the S Coast would be astronomical

 

[Lucy6226]

But the cost of a black cab to the S Coast would be astronomical

Didn't they say it was hundreds of pounds in the last trial?? Because it questioned why they didn't buy clothes, blankets and a warm coat for Victoria

 

[Alyce]

Today's schedule



www.thelawpages.com

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Maybe it's a double-speak admission that the baby was already passed any time she was in the bag.
I don't know why she can't just tell the truth, at least people would feel compassion for her if she'd lost her mind with fear then grief. She could have even claimed post natal psychosis... how would any of us know, we'd have to believe her? Instead she's taking the defiant stance and the problem with that is it makes no sense and we know the baby died in awful circumstances one way or another so then it makes her look cold and calculated.

I think the problem with CM & MG is they're both mutually refusing to disclose anything that implicates either themselves or one another. This could only be a clever move if it ultimately results in the whole case being dismissed through lack of evidence and them being possibly compensated financially... this seems highly unlikely. Also doesn't seem to be the advice of their representation bearing in mind CM has had at least five different firms on her case.

JMO MOO

I think her sense of entitlement is immense. Needing a coffee to wake up?! It’s not Starbucks love! It’s a high profile court case requiring huge public costs and time committed by every individual attending. I’m all for a fair trial but I thought that was unreal.

 

[Maltesepuppy]

I think her sense of entitlement is immense. Needing a coffee to wake up?! It’s not Starbucks love! It’s a high profile court case requiring huge public costs and time committed by every individual attending. I’m all for a fair trial but I thought that was unreal.

To me they come across as petulant, self-centred children. Her asking to halt proceedings so she can have a coffee is not different from him asking for mayo despite hearing the police anxiety.
Their mentality seems to be that the whole world has to meet them where they are.
If and when that doesn't happen they feel persecuted "by the system" and feel they have to "fight against it"

JMO MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I think her sense of entitlement is immense. Needing a coffee to wake up?! It’s not Starbucks love! It’s a high profile court case requiring huge public costs and time committed by every individual attending. I’m all for a fair trial but I thought that was unreal.

I wasn't aware of this - is anyone covering the trial anywhere?

I agree with you that the general demeanour so far has been entitled and lots of seeming deliberate time-wasting and distractions as well as zero humility.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

I wasn't aware of this - is anyone covering the trial anywhere?

I agree with you that the general demeanour so far has been entitled and lots of seeming deliberate time-wasting and distractions as well as zero humility.

I read it on the bbc

Constance Marten denies carrying baby in shopping bag, retrial hears

She tells the court "absolutely not" when asked if she'd carried her newborn in a red bag for life.

www.bbc.co.uk

@JennieM posted another link upthread

 

[Carriep]

Video from Flower and Dean Walk in Whitechapel:

Before the cut when they still have the buggy, MG is carrying two white bags and an orange bag, and CM is wheeling the buggy. At 23:42:52 the orange bag is well-stuffed and has some contents bulging out at the top.

After the 3.5 minute cut when they no longer have the buggy, MG has given the orange bag to CM and it doesn't look quite so full.

Not sure whether CM is wearing the same jacket.

Incidentally the film in the cafe seems to have been shot about 11 hours before the Flower and Dean Walk footage.

The footage on the Daily Mail page resumes after the cut about 20 seconds earlier than the footage on the Youtube page, and MG seems to shrug at about 23:46:23 in the way that a person might if carrying weight on their shoulders. (The Youtube video seems to resume very shortly after this, so you have to look at the Daily Mail video to see it.)

Video: First glimpse of Constance Marten's baby before child found dead | Daily Mail Online

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon's baby seen in CCTV footage for first time as they are put on trial at the Old Bailey, accused of manslaughter. Both appear to be masked, wearing multiple layers, presumably to avoid detection while on the run.

www.dailymail.co.uk

JMO etc.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Video from Flower and Dean Walk in Whitechapel:

Before the cut when they still have the buggy, MG is carrying two white bags and an orange bag, and CM is wheeling the buggy. At 23:42:52 the orange bag is well-stuffed and has some contents bulging out at the top.

After the 3.5 minute cut when they no longer have the buggy, MG has given the orange bag to CM and it doesn't look quite so full.

Not sure whether CM is wearing the same jacket.

Incidentally the film in the cafe seems to have been shot about 11 hours before the Flower and Dean Walk footage.

The footage on the Daily Mail page resumes after the cut about 20 seconds earlier than the footage on the Youtube page, and MG seems to shrug at about 23:46:23 in the way that a person might if carrying weight on their shoulders. (The Youtube video seems to resume very shortly after this, so you have to look at the Daily Mail video to see it.)

Video: First glimpse of Constance Marten's baby before child found dead | Daily Mail Online

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon's baby seen in CCTV footage for first time as they are put on trial at the Old Bailey, accused of manslaughter. Both appear to be masked, wearing multiple layers, presumably to avoid detection while on the run.

www.dailymail.co.uk

JMO etc.

I've followed this case since the beginning and am now becoming convinced they ditched the buggy as the baby had passed or some pivotal issue happened that changed the tone of things.

The baby looked robust and healthy in the kebab shop video and they were shopping for things to keep her alive and warm (somewhat) but anything could have happened in between then and ditching the buggy, including hypothermia or choking or infection / fever. Or maybe they had tried a few minicabs and been declined, realised they could no longer keep using their cash-point cards, began to feel extremely cold, tried to stay with a friend and been refused perhaps. It's like they gave up.

JMO MOO

 

[Carriep]

I've followed this case since the beginning and am now becoming convinced they ditched the buggy as the baby had passed or some pivotal issue happened that changed the tone of things.

The baby looked robust and healthy in the kebab shop video and they were shopping for things to keep her alive and warm (somewhat) but anything could have happened in between then and ditching the buggy, including hypothermia or choking or infection / fever. Or maybe they had tried a few minicabs and been declined, realised they could no longer keep using their cash-point cards, began to feel extremely cold, tried to stay with a friend and been refused perhaps. It's like they gave up.

JMO MOO

Many are hoping to learn more once the trial is over, but I suspect there are aspects that may never be known. Seems wise though not to assume that things that haven't been reported haven't been mentioned in court, because they may have been - e.g. whose allotment was it, why according to CM did they go to this place and that place, possible video evidence from during those 11 hours, did they carry the orange bag everywhere, e.g. to the food bank, did they always stay together when going places after they got to the south coast, and so on.

I'm surprised no-one has suggested that repeatedly yawning and then asking for a coffee break and referencing 3 hours of travel to get to court may have been a case of (literally) a trained actress bolstering the idea that travel makes you tired (which of course it does). Then again, it may be painkillers for the toothache.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

In the kebab shop, watching CM load baby into the buggy from the back of the buggy in that careless manner just isn’t right. She’s not a first time mum. No excuse for he lack of care in handling her baby. I’ve never see a mum put a newborn in a buggy like that. Parents typically put baby in from front, holding baby with two hands, leaning over, gently lowering into buggy, doing up the harness, zipping and tucking the muff. CM looks like she’s chucking a chicken in a pan for roasting.

Typical mum is so careful with baby neck, puts on the harness, has the foot muff secured on the buggy the correct way. Instead CM puts it over baby face- MG seems more gentle and moves it from baby face.
Agree the baby is in that bag after they ditch the buggy.

 

[Carriep]

Might be good to assume that the edited footage that's been released by the police consists of what most helps the prosecution case - perhaps 1-2 minutes from hundreds of times as many. No film of how they put Victoria onto the seat in the cafe, for example. And if they went into lots of other shops that day as has been alleged, it's unlikely there were no cameras.

 

[CaptainNancy]

The Defence have equal access to all and any footage available, should they wish to use any alternative clips, and can also challenge any video they do not want shown for various reasons. The judge would decide whether it was relevant or not.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

In the kebab shop, watching CM load baby into the buggy from the back of the buggy in that careless manner just isn’t right. She’s not a first time mum. No excuse for he lack of care in handling her baby. I’ve never see a mum put a newborn in a buggy like that. Parents typically put baby in from front, holding baby with two hands, leaning over, gently lowering into buggy, doing up the harness, zipping and tucking the muff. CM looks like she’s chucking a chicken in a pan for roasting.

Typical mum is so careful with baby neck, puts on the harness, has the foot muff secured on the buggy the correct way. Instead CM puts it over baby face- MG seems more gentle and moves it from baby face.
Agree the baby is in that bag after they ditch the buggy.

It’s been a good many years since I had pushchair experience of any kind, but fairly sure you’d never put a newborn in a buggy either. Poor little mite looks bewildered and floundering in that upright position. That said, compared to a plastic bag for life anything would be better.

Not sure I’ve ever been so angry at cctv footage