GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged in death of baby Victoria, Guilty on counts 1 & 5, 2025 retrial on manslaughter, 5 Jan 2023 #8

[Maltesepuppy]

In the kebab shop, watching CM load baby into the buggy from the back of the buggy in that careless manner just isn’t right. She’s not a first time mum. No excuse for he lack of care in handling her baby. I’ve never see a mum put a newborn in a buggy like that. Parents typically put baby in from front, holding baby with two hands, leaning over, gently lowering into buggy, doing up the harness, zipping and tucking the muff. CM looks like she’s chucking a chicken in a pan for roasting.

Typical mum is so careful with baby neck, puts on the harness, has the foot muff secured on the buggy the correct way. Instead CM puts it over baby face- MG seems more gentle and moves it from baby face.
Agree the baby is in that bag after they ditch the buggy.

100% . In fact to me CM's body language when she picked Victoria and put her into the buggy was that she was exasperated.
I've always thought that running away was more to do as a rebellion thing i.e. "they are not taking this one", even the choice of name for the baby seems to indicate this.
When I saw the lack of care CM was handling Victoria,I did wonder if she was regretting their choices, not just caring for a baby but algo being on the run.
Even if she was regretting it she would never had admitted it anyway, and was prepared to keep going, sadly.

JMO MOO

 

[JennieM]

IMO the buggy was too inconvenient for them, so they binned it. The bag was easier and more practical, also the police and public were looking for a couple with a baby. Being seen with a baby was more risky for them.

 

[JennieM]

I've followed this case since the beginning and am now becoming convinced they ditched the buggy as the baby had passed or some pivotal issue happened that changed the tone of things.

The baby looked robust and healthy in the kebab shop video and they were shopping for things to keep her alive and warm (somewhat) but anything could have happened in between then and ditching the buggy, including hypothermia or choking or infection / fever. Or maybe they had tried a few minicabs and been declined, realised they could no longer keep using their cash-point cards, began to feel extremely cold, tried to stay with a friend and been refused perhaps. It's like they gave up.

JMO MOO

Your post made me question for a second, for the first time, the manslaughter charge.

 

[CaptainNancy]

She must have been exhausted even by that point (kebab shop). Post partum, driven up and down the country, in and out of hotels at all house, a breastfeeding mum with no chance to nap in the day. Then they traipse about until the middle of the night again.

To be fair I suspect the footage reflects her feeling of exhaustion and desperation as much as anything.

Which is exactly why new mums need safety, security and support for mum and baby to thrive. It was already Not OK by the time they arrived on the S Coast.

IMO.

 

[Carriep]

Is the trial on today? The judge is listed at Courtserve as sitting in chambers, but under Court No.5 so maybe in a different case.

 

[Carriep]

The Defence have equal access to all and any footage available, should they wish to use any alternative clips, and can also challenge any video they do not want shown for various reasons. The judge would decide whether it was relevant or not.

Yes but those of us not involved with the case have only seen the footage that's been given to the media by the police side. Perhaps the defence have shown other material in court. There is surely a large amount that exists.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Might be good to assume that the edited footage that's been released by the police consists of what most helps the prosecution case - perhaps 1-2 minutes from hundreds of times as many. No film of how they put Victoria onto the seat in the cafe, for example. And if they went into lots of other shops that day as has been alleged, it's unlikely there were no cameras.

Yes, if they were in the high streets and in and out of shops / cafeterias and even approaching mini-cabs or black cabs with dashcams and or interior cameras, one would imagine there's hundreds of hours footage.

I think the kebab shop video was released during the 'man-hunt' phase maybe? So it was pertinent for the general public to be able to see what CM & MG looked like etc?

JMO MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

It’s been a good many years since I had pushchair experience of any kind, but fairly sure you’d never put a newborn in a buggy either. Poor little mite looks bewildered and floundering in that upright position. That said, compared to a plastic bag for life anything would be better.

Not sure I’ve ever been so angry at cctv footage

The main thing with that buggy is just how bitterly cold it was in London / the UK at that time.

The buggy offered zero insulation for a new born. As we saw, she was only in a single layer onesie. Going from being permanently stuffed inside her mother's coat (which looked to be one of those feather down type of jackets) to being laid down on a bench seat to, then being inserted into a cold buggy with no thermal layer, no blankets, and having some sort of padding stuffed down on top of her would have left her feeling much colder. Her back had no insulation or thermal heat generating. Being pushed around would create a draught below her body. The weather was really cold, a low breeze or wind would have chilled her to the core. She looked feisty and active when being moved into the buggy but that was ultimately distress signals. After being in the buggy in the streets a while, she had probably screamed in distress for a while but was probably then rendered lethargic and inactive. Also, CM would have needed to keep taking her in and out to feed her - generating more discomfort and cold.

I speculate she could have even died at that point. Hence the 'bag for life'. If there's solid evidence to demonstrate she was still alive then fair enough but perhaps she had passed and perhaps that is what propelled the pair to really go on the run and live in tents and sheds etc. JMO MOO

 

[Alyce]

IMO the buggy was too inconvenient for them, so they binned it. The bag was easier and more practical, also the police and public were looking for a couple with a baby. Being seen with a baby was more risky for them.

I agree. I believe the buggy was disposed of because it shone a spotlight on them.



From the timeline........... they ditched the buggy the same day/evening after their meeting with Dan Gosling.


January 7
They are seen by a member of the public in Harwich at around 9am.
Later that day, they are caught on CCTV near London’s East Ham station between 10.30am and 12.30pm.

From there they take a taxi to Whitechapel road, getting dropped off just before 6.15pm.

It is here that Mark Gordon goes into a branch of Argos alone and buys camping equipment including sleeping bags and a two-person tent.

The couple walk around the area for a few hours unsuccessfully trying to flag down taxis. Shortly before midnight they dump their buggy near Brick Lane, east London, and take a taxi to Haringey in north London.



From the evidence given by Dan Gosling in Trial One - which will no doubt be repeated this time round.

Today, a witness at the trial at the Old Bailey told how he encountered the couple near Harwich port in Essex after watching a news report about their disappearance. Dan Gosling had been walking his dog when he came across them. He told proceedings: “It was freezing cold. There was frost on the floor. There was chill in the air, a fresh January morning to say the least.

“I said ‘Excuse me, are you the people who are on the television advertised as missing with a new baby?’ I cannot remember his ( MGs ) exact words but he denied it. I offered them a lift to the hospital. He said he was doing the best for his child, he wanted to keep his family together and do the right thing and something like that. They said they thought they had plans. They knew what they were doing. They said they were trying to go to London to try to see family or friends.”

Mr Gosling said the baby was dressed in a white onesie and wrapped inside Marten’s coat in a towel or blanket and gave the kind of cry he “could not walk away from. When asked if the baby sounded distressed by prosecutor Joel Smith, Mr Gosling answered: “Most definitely”.

Mr Gosling said he offered to take the couple home with him, give them a cup of tea and then take them to hospital. He added he felt it was the “morally correct thing to do”. He stressed to the couple his concern was for the well-being of the baby and not about anything they had done, the court was told. Gordon just “fobbed” him off, the witness said.

He added: “Ms Marten, she seemed compliant, she was willing to come, maybe have a cup of tea, maybe get a lift to the hospital. She seems a bit swayed. Mr Gordon was quite insistent he was alright. He had a plan, he was going to London to stay with his friends and family.”

Baby ‘screamed in distress’ as fugitive parents refused help, court hears

Constance Marten, 36, and partner Mark Gordon, 49, turned down the help of a stranger who had just watched about them on television, a trial at the Old Bailey heard

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[Carriep]

The main thing with that buggy is just how bitterly cold it was in London / the UK at that time.

The buggy offered zero insulation for a new born. As we saw, she was only in a single layer onesie. Going from being permanently stuffed inside her mother's coat (which looked to be one of those feather down type of jackets) to being laid down on a bench seat to, then being inserted into a cold buggy with no thermal layer, no blankets, and having some sort of padding stuffed down on top of her would have left her feeling much colder. Her back had no insulation or thermal heat generating. Being pushed around would create a draught below her body. The weather was really cold, a low breeze or wind would have chilled her to the core. She looked feisty and active when being moved into the buggy but that was ultimately distress signals. After being in the buggy in the streets a while, she had probably screamed in distress for a while but was probably then rendered lethargic and inactive. Also, CM would have needed to keep taking her in and out to feed her - generating more discomfort and cold.

I speculate she could have even died at that point. Hence the 'bag for life'. If there's solid evidence to demonstrate she was still alive then fair enough but perhaps she had passed and perhaps that is what propelled the pair to really go on the run and live in tents and sheds etc. JMO MOO

Hasan Guzel, the taxi driver who took them from Haringey to Newhaven (they were originally going to Portsmouth) says he saw and heard the baby:

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial: Taxi driver was 'suspicious' of on-the-run couple with baby

The pair spent hundreds of pounds on taxi journeys across England, including a three-hour trip from north London to East Sussex, in a bid to keep the infant, a court heard.

news.sky.com

"During the journey, he then began to hear what sounded like a "cat meowing," the court heard.

"I was annoyed at first because I thought she had a pet without telling me. I could see it was a baby, I could see the noise was coming from a baby," he said.

"I thought why didn't she tell me about this, it's been nearly four hours we have been travelling."

See also

Constance Marten 'claimed she was Muslim while on the run'

Marten suggested she was using a hoodie as a hijab to a taxi driver

www.standard.co.uk

Tent like Constance Marten’s shown to Old Bailey jury

Jurors have taken a first-hand look at a tent and sleeping bags like the ones used by aristocrat Constance Marten

www.brightonandhovenews.org

Constance Marten: Taxi driver recalls 'uneasy feeling' about couple

Baby Victoria's mother is at the Old Bailey with Mark Gordon for the first time since the trial began.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Carriep]

Yes, if they were in the high streets and in and out of shops / cafeterias and even approaching mini-cabs or black cabs with dashcams and or interior cameras, one would imagine there's hundreds of hours footage.

I think the kebab shop video was released during the 'man-hunt' phase maybe? So it was pertinent for the general public to be able to see what CM & MG looked like etc?

JMO MOO

The first time any photos or film of Victoria were published was during the first trial:

Constance Marten's newborn is seen for the first time

Constance Marten , 36, and Mark Gordon, 49, are accused of causing the death of baby Victoria by living in a tent 'off grid' in the middle of winter.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Zuleika]

I will be very surprised if the jury have not been affected by being shown the various videos where Victoria is seen in the most scant items of clothing during that bitter cold period .
How can you not think something was very wrong with the couple’s behaviour ?
The manslaughter charge could very well bring in a guilty verdict imo

 

[Baby baby Jane]

New borns need buggy with flat surface for baby - the one they bought not suitable because it’s not flat when completely reclined. The blurb description at Argos, and box & packaging would have indicated this.

A bag for life… has no support and if they put the buggy foot muff in for a “bed”, even worse. Baby would not lying flat and it’s risky - hot, suffocation, no air circulating. Surely there is no research indicating risks of carrying baby in this way.

Last trial, they made comparisons to their tent etc, to baby practices for some non-western peoples. Is there any people, anywhere that carry newborn babies in soft bottom plastic/vinyl bags? Probably not … because it’s not safe.

 

[Nikynoo]

I've followed this case since the beginning and am now becoming convinced they ditched the buggy as the baby had passed or some pivotal issue happened that changed the tone of things.

The baby looked robust and healthy in the kebab shop video and they were shopping for things to keep her alive and warm (somewhat) but anything could have happened in between then and ditching the buggy, including hypothermia or choking or infection / fever. Or maybe they had tried a few minicabs and been declined, realised they could no longer keep using their cash-point cards, began to feel extremely cold, tried to stay with a friend and been refused perhaps. It's like they gave up.

JMO MOO

IMO they became very aware that the police were looking for them and London wasn’t the safe haven they thought it would be.

 

[Nikynoo]

This may explain the tiredness of some prisoners. This podcast explains the process of prisoners being taken to court.

 

[Megnut]

This may explain the tiredness of some prisoners. This podcast explains the process of prisoners being taken to court.

In this transcript, CM describes how long her days are and how tired she is, "my life depends on the outcome of this trial." No, actually it doesn't. Just her freedom. Whoch for me is beside the point.

Baby Victoria depended on her parents, with her life. She didn't get a choice.

JMO

 

[Yellowbelly]

This may explain the tiredness of some prisoners. This podcast explains the process of prisoners being taken to court.

Do we know which prison she's being held at?

 

[Carriep]

Do we know which prison she's being held at?

She's in HMP Bronzefield, a private prison in Ashford, Surrey. It's the largest women's prison in Europe.

That podcast is also on Youtube:

She explains how she is being made to do 17 to 19 hour days and then expected to be alert in court.

 

[Cherwell]

I wish people would stop calling it a "bag for life".
A bag for life is an ordinary flimsy carrier bag. It is called a "bag for life" because once it is too worn or damaged to use, it can be exchanged for a new one, free of charge, an unlimited number of times.

The type of shopping bag they had is more robust and larger with an expanding base. Like this.

NEW Lidl large Big On the Big Shop SHOPPING BAG Reused-able | eBay UK

2 sided strong wipe-able bag with 2 short handles. World £6.99.

www.ebay.co.uk

Call me pedantic, but I feel that a distinction should be made between these two different things.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

I wish people would stop calling it a "bag for life".
A bag for life is an ordinary flimsy carrier bag. It is called a "bag for life" because once it is too worn or damaged to use, it can be exchanged for a new one, free of charge, an unlimited number of times.

The type of shopping bag they had is more robust and larger with an expanding base. Like this.

NEW Lidl large Big On the Big Shop SHOPPING BAG Reused-able | eBay UK

2 sided strong wipe-able bag with 2 short handles. World £6.99.

www.ebay.co.uk

Call me pedantic, but I feel that a distinction should be made between these two different things.

For me a bag for life is one that you buy from a supermarket and keep long term (like the one in the picture). Maybe it just means different things to different people.