GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged in death of baby Victoria, Guilty on counts 1 & 5, 2025 retrial on manslaughter, 5 Jan 2023 #8

[Carriep]

We should assume we aren't going to know how the appeal went until after the retrial has concluded?

 

[Alyce]

The Crown Court at Central Criminal Court Daily Courtroom List for Monday 03 March 2025​

Court 6 - sitting at 10:30 am

THE RECORDER OF LONDON

​

For Trial

T20237104	GORDON Mark A	01MP1072723	SUSWM	CPS
	MARTEN Constance	01MP1072723

DTA, Order made under Contempt of Court Act 1981

www.courtserve.net

 

[Carriep]

The Crown Court at Central Criminal Court Daily Courtroom List for Monday 03 March 2025​

Court 6 - sitting at 10:30 am

THE RECORDER OF LONDON

​

For Trial

T20237104	GORDON Mark A	01MP1072723	SUSWM	CPS
	MARTEN Constance	01MP1072723

DTA, Order made under Contempt of Court Act 1981

www.courtserve.net

I hope the press are allowed to report at least something of what's happening, including what charges are on the indictment. For example if all 5 originally laid charges are laid again, we could make the educated guess that the appeal court ordered a retrial on the 2(3?) on which they were convicted last year. Many other things are possible too. Anything could happen. (Shrugs.)

If the retrial is listed for tomorrow, this probably means the application to break fixture was denied, but, again, who on earth knows what's going on?

 

[Yellowbelly]

I hope the press are allowed to report at least something of what's happening, including what charges are on the indictment. For example if all 5 originally laid charges are laid again, we could make the educated guess that the appeal court ordered a retrial on the 2(3?) on which they were convicted last year. Many other things are possible too. Anything could happen. (Shrugs.)

If the retrial is listed for tomorrow, this probably means the application to break fixture was denied, but, again, who on earth knows what's going on?

It strikes me as highly unlikely that the convictions have been quashed. If the Court of Appeal had quashed the original convictions, there's no way that the lawyers on both sides could suddenly prepare for a re-trial of those charges over the course of a weekend.

 

[Carriep]

Piece by Anna Fazackerley in the Guardian, 25 January 2025:

‘I can’t sleep, I’m terrified’: the rise in mothers having their babies taken away within days of giving birth in England

Charity finds ‘inhumane’ system is forcing women to defend themselves in court, sometimes from their hospital beds, while in fear of having their newborn child taken from them

www.theguardian.com

"In 2022-23 nearly 3,000 newborn babies were subject to care proceedings in England, according to analysis of government data by the Nuffield Family Justice Observatory (NFJO), shared exclusively with the Observer."
...
"The Observer has been told examples of women expected to catch public transport to court just after giving birth, in one case with a drip after a caesarean section, and curtains drawn around a bed in a busy ward so mothers can attend the high stakes hearing virtually."
...
"Broadhurst said it was common for new mothers facing this to be unaware that they need to find a solicitor. A midwife quoted in the paper described her horror when “a man in a suit” arrived in the ward unannounced. “He just served her, and I watched, and I couldn’t believe what was happening. This woman had only given birth the day before.”"
...
"Harker said: “Mums, midwives, solicitors, barristers and judges are all telling us the way we do this is inhumane." "
Also this from 12 February 2025:

Groundbreaking new laws bring transparency to the Family Court - Furley Page

New rules will give journalists access to request a transparency order to report on Family Court hearings in England and Wales for the first time,...

www.furleypage.co.uk

"New rules will give journalists access to request a transparency order to report on Family Court hearings in England and Wales for the first time, following the introduction of groundbreaking new laws."

If a retrial goes ahead, it's possible the defence will be run a bit differently?

 

[Nikynoo]

Piece by Anna Fazackerley in the Guardian, 25 January 2025:

‘I can’t sleep, I’m terrified’: the rise in mothers having their babies taken away within days of giving birth in England

Charity finds ‘inhumane’ system is forcing women to defend themselves in court, sometimes from their hospital beds, while in fear of having their newborn child taken from them

www.theguardian.com

"In 2022-23 nearly 3,000 newborn babies were subject to care proceedings in England, according to analysis of government data by the Nuffield Family Justice Observatory (NFJO), shared exclusively with the Observer."
...
"The Observer has been told examples of women expected to catch public transport to court just after giving birth, in one case with a drip after a caesarean section, and curtains drawn around a bed in a busy ward so mothers can attend the high stakes hearing virtually."
...
"Broadhurst said it was common for new mothers facing this to be unaware that they need to find a solicitor. A midwife quoted in the paper described her horror when “a man in a suit” arrived in the ward unannounced. “He just served her, and I watched, and I couldn’t believe what was happening. This woman had only given birth the day before.”"
...
"Harker said: “Mums, midwives, solicitors, barristers and judges are all telling us the way we do this is inhumane." "
Also this from 12 February 2025:

Groundbreaking new laws bring transparency to the Family Court - Furley Page

New rules will give journalists access to request a transparency order to report on Family Court hearings in England and Wales for the first time,...

www.furleypage.co.uk

"New rules will give journalists access to request a transparency order to report on Family Court hearings in England and Wales for the first time, following the introduction of groundbreaking new laws."

If a retrial goes ahead, it's possible the defence will be run a bit differently?

Interesting article, thank you for posting. I do hope that these child care cases become more transparent. However, the judge makes the order and if the judge has any doubt, then that order should not be made.

I don't think the defence will be run any differently - it will be more or less the same as last time, unless C has received some counselling and support to accept the decision to remove her previous children, nothing will change.

 

[Carriep]

Interesting article, thank you for posting. I do hope that these child care cases become more transparent. However, the judge makes the order and if the judge has any doubt, then that order should not be made.

I don't think the defence will be run any differently - it will be more or less the same as last time, unless C has received some counselling and support to accept the decision to remove her previous children, nothing will change.

I was thinking that possibly more experts may be willing to appear for the defence this year than last year, given what may be a buildup to greater public discussion. (CM mentioned the Post Office scandal.) But anything could happen. Perhaps there will be a plea bargain. I have no idea. I don't know what last week's appeal hearing was about, the result, or whether or how it's changed either side's position regarding the retrial.

ISTR from last year that there's an official site that reports when the court rises, when witnesses appear, etc. Any idea whether that's Courtserve.net, or is there somewhere else that I should bookmark?

 

[bobbymkii]

ISTR from last year that there's an official site that reports when the court rises, when witnesses appear, etc. Any idea whether that's Courtserve.net, or is there somewhere else that I should bookmark?

RSBM

I think this is what you are looking for:

https://www.thelawpages.com/

 

[Carriep]

RSBM

I think this is what you are looking for:

https://www.thelawpages.com/

Thank you. According to that site:

"Details:For Trial - Case adjourned until 00:00 - 10:58"

PS What is "RSBM"?

 

[Alyce]

www.thelawpages.com

 

[Alyce]

Interesting article, thank you for posting. I do hope that these child care cases become more transparent. However, the judge makes the order and if the judge has any doubt, then that order should not be made.

I don't think the defence will be run any differently - it will be more or less the same as last time, unless C has received some counselling and support to accept the decision to remove her previous children, nothing will change.

I agree Niky. They will offer the same evidence. Just hope the trial proceeds without the delays and dramas of the first one and that the Jury can reach speedy verdicts.

 

[bobbymkii]

Thank you.

"Details:For Trial - Case adjourned until 00:00 - 10:58"

PS What

Thank you. According to that site:



PS What is "RSBM"?

Respectfully Snipped By Me.

To advise users that you have only quoted part of the post by the user you are responding to.

 

[Nikynoo]

I was thinking that possibly more experts may be willing to appear for the defence this year than last year, given what may be a buildup to greater public discussion. (CM mentioned the Post Office scandal.) But anything could happen. Perhaps there will be a plea bargain. I have no idea. I don't know what last week's appeal hearing was about, the result, or whether or how it's changed either side's position regarding the retrial.

ISTR from last year that there's an official site that reports when the court rises, when witnesses appear, etc. Any idea whether that's Courtserve.net, or is there somewhere else that I should bookmark?

If I remember correctly, during the last trial, the defence was broadly; 'our children were taken from us unlawfully, which made us go on the run to prevent this child from also being taken from us'. Its not really a defence, as public policy is not being tried here.
I don't think that there will be further experts, but rather the expert testimony offered will be refined to give the jury a clearer path from which to make a decision.

 

[Carriep]

No appeal court judgment in this case has been posted, although the latest in another case is from last Thursday:

Search results - Find Case Law - The National Archives

caselaw.nationalarchives.gov.uk

 

[Alyce]

www.thelawpages.com

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​ Details: For Trial - Case adjourned until 00:00 - 10:58 For Trial - Case adjourned until 10:30 - 12:03

Central Criminal Court

6



T20237104

​

constance marten
mark alton gordon

 

[Yellowbelly]

www.thelawpages.com


View attachment 567760

This is the latest. What I think it means is that they adjourned to an indeterminate time at 10.58, then came back and at 12.03 adjourned until tomorrow morning at 10.30.

I think this is basically all going to be around the jury being selected and sworn in, which is the first thing to happen at a Crown Court trial.

 

[Carriep]

This is the latest. What I think it means is that they adjourned to an indeterminate time at 10.58, then came back and at 12.03 adjourned until tomorrow morning at 10.30.

I think this is basically all going to be around the jury being selected and sworn in, which is the first thing to happen at a Crown Court trial.

View attachment 567768

Have they been arraigned and asked how they plead yet?

 

[Alyce]

dbm

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				C

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[Alyce]

www.courtserve.net



Crown Court at Central Criminal Court Courtroom List for Tuesday March 4, 2025

Court 6 -

The Recorder of London

SITTING AT 10:00 am

Trial (Part Heard)

T20237104	GORDON Mark A	01MP1072723	SUSWM	CPS
	MARTEN Constance	01MP1072723

DTA, Order made under Contempt of Court Act 1981

 

[Carriep]

What to deduce from the fact that no judgment has been published from the Court of Appeal? Is it more likely that a judgment was issued without being published, or that no judgment has been issued?