GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged in death of baby Victoria, Guilty on counts 1 & 5, 2025 retrial on manslaughter, 5 Jan 2023 #8

[Cherwell]

Why was she ranting? Did he ask for chicken without mayonnaise?

Maybe she thought it was irrelevant and shouldn't be given in evidence.

I do wish the media would stop labelling her "aristocrat". It's ridiculous.

 

[Carriep]

Maybe she thought it was irrelevant and shouldn't be given in evidence.

I do wish the media would stop labelling her "aristocrat". It's ridiculous.

They're stuck in the Lady Chatterley's Lover groove.

 

[Carriep]

Why was she ranting? Did he ask for chicken without mayonnaise?

As I understand it, he wanted his food that they'd just bought, and all of it rather than just some of it. That's not demanding that the police wait on him.

More interesting is whether the two of them bought any food for her.

I am not sure of the relevance of this anyway. But maybe others can explain. The prosecution allege (and the defence/ defendants did not offer any other info at the first trial) that from the time they arrived by taxi in the Newhaven area they were camping in the tent and later (after the death of the baby) moved to the shed. So we know that either the baby was alive in the tent, dead in the tent, and dead in the shed.

Was there evidence that they had lived and slept in the shed? I've wondered about that.

 

[JennieM]

As I understand it, he wanted his food that they'd just bought, and all of it rather than just some of it. That's not demanding that the police wait on him.

More interesting is whether the two of them bought any food for her.

But the police was trying to find a baby, a baby is more important than a sandwich.

 

[Carriep]

But the police was trying to find a baby, a baby is more important than a sandwich.

Yes of course. At that time didn't she tell the police "He's got a mental health problem" or something like that? In court last time she also said the police edited out the bit where they assaulted him. I can't remember whether they asked him where his child was at that time, or whether they just asked her. (Edit: Yes they did ask him, and on at least one occasion he replied "Can I have my food please?")

She seems very protective of him. (JMO)

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Yes of course. At that time didn't she tell the police "He's got a mental health problem" or something like that? In court last time she also said the police edited out the bit where they assaulted him. I can't remember whether they asked him where his child was at that time, or whether they just asked her. (Edit: Yes they did ask him, and on at least one occasion he replied "Can I have my food please?")

She seems very protective of him. (JMO)

IIRC it was released into the public domain that MG had asked many times for food after being apprehended and whilst refusing to say where the baby was. He requested a chicken sandwich specifically and this was provided him but he then wanted mayonnaise for it, saying it was a human rights issue.

I believe it was said he demanded this sandwich then mayonnaise at least forty times in the immediate aftermath of being captured and that he also refused to sit in a chair and threw himself on the floor then refused help to get up as well as claiming medical issues and accusing officers of assaulting him.

All the while LE were urgently asking as they were hoping to maybe locate the baby alive.

 

[Carriep]

IIRC it was released into the public domain that MG had asked many times for food after being apprehended and whilst refusing to say where the baby was. He requested a chicken sandwich specifically and this was provided him but he then wanted mayonnaise for it, saying it was a human rights issue.

I believe it was said he demanded this sandwich then mayonnaise at least forty times in the immediate aftermath of being captured and that he also refused to sit in a chair and threw himself on the floor then refused help to get up as well as claiming medical issues and accusing officers of assaulting him.

All the while LE were urgently asking as they were hoping to maybe locate the baby alive.

Okay but I think this was his own food that they'd just bought, and he was possibly literally starving, which affects mind as well as body, and he knew their daughter had died several weeks before, so it's possible to make too much out of the mayonnaise.

The dynamic may have been that they kept repeating something at him, ignoring the one thing that he was saying to them, so he kept repeating what he was saying too.

Regarding "threw himself on the floor" while he was in custody at the police station, it would be good to hear his side. As indeed about everything else for that matter.

The way the police officer told him to "Drop it! Now!" with regard to his walking stick reminded me of how many dog owners speak to their pets.

I'm not sure why it was thought necessary to bring him in chains to the magistrates' court either, when he is not accused of violence.

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon in court charged with manslaughter of baby girl as post-mortem unable to establish cause of death

The body of the child, named Victoria, was found wrapped in a plastic bag under some nappies in an unlocked shed near to where Constance Marten and Mark Gordon had been camping on an overgrown allotment plot in Brighton, Crawley Magistrates' Court was told.

news.sky.com

Constance Marten's lover demands mayo and crisps as he's asked if baby is dead

Newly released police footage shows Mark Gordon demanding mayonnaise for his chicken as he and partner Constance Marten are arrested by police over the death of their infant daughter

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

As I understand it, he wanted his food that they'd just bought, and all of it rather than just some of it. That's not demanding that the police wait on him.

More interesting is whether the two of them bought any food for her.


Was there evidence that they had lived and slept in the shed? I've wondered about that.

JMO but they didn't buy food for the baby as she was likely dead long before the date that LE initially estimated MOO. Had probably been subsisting on inadequate breast milk, inadequate due to CM being under so much duress and becoming malnourished herself. Not sure how much supplementation new borns need outside of breast milk but the baby looked a big healthy size, fit and well, in the kebab shop video from Whitechapel before they left London in spite of everything. MOO

 

[Lucy6226]

Okay but I think this was his own food that they'd just bought, and he was possibly literally starving, which affects mind as well as body, and he knew their daughter had died several weeks before, so it's possible to make too much out of the mayonnaise.

It may have been that they kept repeating something at him, ignoring the one thing that he was saying to them, so he kept repeating what he was saying too.

Regarding "threw himself on the floor" while he was in custody at the police station, it would be good to hear his side. As indeed about everything else for that matter.

The way the police officer told him to "Drop it! Now!" with regard to his walking stick reminded me of how many dog owners speak to their pets.

I'm not sure why it was thought necessary to bring him in chains to the magistrates' court either, when he is not accused of violence.

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon in court charged with manslaughter of baby girl as post-mortem unable to establish cause of death

The body of the child, named Victoria, was found wrapped in a plastic bag under some nappies in an unlocked shed near to where Constance Marten and Mark Gordon had been camping on an overgrown allotment plot in Brighton, Crawley Magistrates' Court was told.

news.sky.com

Constance Marten's lover demands mayo and crisps as he's asked if baby is dead

Newly released police footage shows Mark Gordon demanding mayonnaise for his chicken as he and partner Constance Marten are arrested by police over the death of their infant daughter

www.mirror.co.uk

He might have known the baby had died. But the police didn't know that, they were trying to locate a tiny baby that had potentially been left alone in a cold tent. Which is why they asked him over and over where is the baby.

Asking him to drop the walking stick is standard protocol for anyone that has a 'weapon'. He could have whacked it round a police officers head for all they knew.

If I was searching for a baby potentially in a life threatening condition I would be telling him to wait for food too!

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Okay but I think this was his own food that they'd just bought, and he was possibly literally starving, which affects mind as well as body, and he knew their daughter had died several weeks before, so it's possible to make too much out of the mayonnaise.

It may have been that they kept repeating something at him, ignoring the one thing that he was saying to them, so he kept repeating what he was saying too.

Regarding "threw himself on the floor" while he was in custody at the police station, it would be good to hear his side. As indeed about everything else for that matter.

The way the police officer told him to "Drop it! Now!" with regard to his walking stick reminded me of how many dog owners speak to their pets.

I'm not sure why it was thought necessary to bring him in chains to the magistrates' court either, when he is not accused of violence.

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon in court charged with manslaughter of baby girl as post-mortem unable to establish cause of death

The body of the child, named Victoria, was found wrapped in a plastic bag under some nappies in an unlocked shed near to where Constance Marten and Mark Gordon had been camping on an overgrown allotment plot in Brighton, Crawley Magistrates' Court was told.

news.sky.com

Constance Marten's lover demands mayo and crisps as he's asked if baby is dead

Newly released police footage shows Mark Gordon demanding mayonnaise for his chicken as he and partner Constance Marten are arrested by police over the death of their infant daughter

www.mirror.co.uk

I think he's probably learned how to filter out forms of yelling authority after being in US prison from a very young age. Also the making medical demands, food and water demands, falling to the floor, refusing to stand or sit, these are all age old tactics of protest and non compliance.

I totally get that he has likely been brutalised in many ways and is disaffected, plus he would indeed have known the baby was already passed and indeed there was no hurry.

However, in this instance, one can surely only side with the police who weren't aware of the death and needed to locate a potentially dying tiny baby with every second counting? JMO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

He might have known the baby had died. But the police didn't know that, they were trying to locate a tiny baby that had potentially been left alone in a cold tent. Which is why they asked him over and over where is the baby.

Asking him to drop the walking stick is standard protocol for anyone that has a 'weapon'. He could have whacked it round a police officers head for all they knew.

If I was searching for a baby potentially in a life threatening condition I would be telling him to wait for food too!

Unbelievably people have been shot dead in the street by UK armed police for way less than that. Harry Stanley, Jean Charles de Menezes, Mark Duggan.

 

[Lucy6226]

Unbelievably people have been shot dead in the street by UK armed police for way less than that. Harry Stanley, Jean Charles de Menezes, Mark Duggan.

Exactly! Very lucky he wasn't at the very least tasered

 

[JennieM]

Okay but I think this was his own food that they'd just bought, and he was possibly literally starving, which affects mind as well as body, and he knew their daughter had died several weeks before, so it's possible to make too much out of the mayonnaise.

The dynamic may have been that they kept repeating something at him, ignoring the one thing that he was saying to them, so he kept repeating what he was saying too.

Regarding "threw himself on the floor" while he was in custody at the police station, it would be good to hear his side. As indeed about everything else for that matter.

The way the police officer told him to "Drop it! Now!" with regard to his walking stick reminded me of how many dog owners speak to their pets.

I'm not sure why it was thought necessary to bring him in chains to the magistrates' court either, when he is not accused of violence.

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon in court charged with manslaughter of baby girl as post-mortem unable to establish cause of death

The body of the child, named Victoria, was found wrapped in a plastic bag under some nappies in an unlocked shed near to where Constance Marten and Mark Gordon had been camping on an overgrown allotment plot in Brighton, Crawley Magistrates' Court was told.

news.sky.com

Constance Marten's lover demands mayo and crisps as he's asked if baby is dead

Newly released police footage shows Mark Gordon demanding mayonnaise for his chicken as he and partner Constance Marten are arrested by police over the death of their infant daughter

www.mirror.co.uk

CM said they didn’t bury Victoria because they wanted to preserve her body for an autopsy. If that was the truth, he would have straightaway led the authorities to Victoria’s body, not deflect and cause trouble the way he did. They both lie and did not want Victoria found. If the police hadn’t found Victoria, she would still be missing to this day.

 

[JennieM]

They were arrested on 27 February 2023 and Victoria’s dead body was found on 1 March 2023. They were not in a hurry to lead the police to her.

 

[Nikynoo]

I am not sure of the relevance of this anyway. But maybe others can explain. The prosecution allege (and the defence/ defendants did not offer any other info at the first trial) that from the time they arrived by taxi in the Newhaven area they were camping in the tent and later (after the death of the baby) moved to the shed. So we know that either the baby was alive in the tent, dead in the tent, and dead in the shed.

At a guess, I would say that the prosecutions case is around the cold and the inadequate shelter the couple chose. It could be argued both ways though.

 

[Carriep]

CM said they didn’t bury Victoria because they wanted to preserve her body for an autopsy. If that was the truth, he would have straightaway led the authorities to Victoria’s body, not deflect and cause trouble the way he did. They both lie and did not want Victoria found. If the police hadn’t found Victoria, she would still be missing to this day.

You could apply the same thinking to the day before they were arrested. It could be that she was in quite a state. ISTR that as well as saying she wanted an examination to find out what had happened to her daughter she said she didn't know what to do and that she felt guilty. Strictly logically that combination of three statements can doubtless be picked apart and shown as self-contradictory, but I am not sure it contains anything that sounds like lying. In addition it could be that they didn't trust the police. The notion the police spread in the media that after the arrest they needed to act quickly because the baby might still be alive struck me as somewhat questionable to say the least. (JMO)

There's a scenario in which he was starving to the extent that he couldn't cope any more, and when they decided to go to the shop and buy food using a bank card - having previously avoided doing so, for security reasons - they knew the end of their period on the run was imminent. I haven't read everything about this case, so am not sure whether there's anything that contradicts this.

 

[GreekGal]

Can anyone tell me where, if anywhere, the retrial is being reported upon? I can't seem to find a source for CM''s most recent ranting episode at the Old Bailey earlier this week. TIA.

 

[missmargot]

I’ve not seen any reporting from The Trial podcast or BBC In Court whereas they covered in a lot of detail last time around.

 

[Maltesepuppy]

Okay but I think this was his own food that they'd just bought, and he was possibly literally starving, which affects mind as well as body, and he knew their daughter had died several weeks before, so it's possible to make too much out of the mayonnaise.

The dynamic may have been that they kept repeating something at him, ignoring the one thing that he was saying to them, so he kept repeating what he was saying too.

Regarding "threw himself on the floor" while he was in custody at the police station, it would be good to hear his side. As indeed about everything else for that matter...

SBM

If he was literally starving he would have eaten the sandwich without mayo.
Asking for mayo seemed to me like an attempt to rebel against authority. Not unlike taking a baby they were incapable of looking after.
And as for hearing his side he had that opportunity and kept quiet.

JMO

 

[Alyce]

Can anyone tell me where, if anywhere, the retrial is being reported upon? I can't seem to find a source for CM''s most recent ranting episode at the Old Bailey earlier this week. TIA.

There is a link re cm's rant in my post #738. But I agree, there is very little live reporting for this trial, so far.
Perhaps we will hear more when the defendants take the stand - although I expect mg will remain silent as ever.

all MOO here of course.