GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged in death of baby Victoria, Guilty on counts 1 & 5, 2025 retrial on manslaughter, 5 Jan 2023 #8

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #801
BBM, but, they were trying to hide something - they were trying to hide the fact that the baby died. We know that, because when the police asked them where the baby was, they refused to answer. They did keep very quiet about her whereabouts, even under intense pressure/police interview. That speaks again to self-preservation, not distress or incapacity.

We don't bury bodies in order to hide them, we bury them to lay them to rest. We bury them to show respect, and to prevent them from openly decomposing, which to a grieving person would heighten their distress.

Stuffing Victoria's body in a plastic bag, covering her up with rubbish, and putting the bag in a random shed seems IMO like *more* of an attempt to hide something than burying her would have been.

Unless they were psychotically disturbed. When you say 'incapable' do you mean to say that they didn't understand that she was dead, or that they had lost their mental capacity to the point where they wanted to 'keep her' even though she had died? That would make more sense to me, of their actions, but then - are they mentally fit to stand trial?

And it still doesn't quite explain why they tried to conceal the FACT of her death from the authorities. If the police had not found the body, then IMO - pure speculation - I believe they would have pretended that they had given her to people traffickers. Pure imagination on my part, but I wonder if that had been part of their plan, when they were on the run.

I agree with these ideas.

Maybe they had life struggles sufficient to make them anti-authoritarian and mistrustful of all institutions. They could have been in awful trauma about the removal of their other children. Plus they could have felt frantic and paranoid to the point of all that being formal mental illness and 'folie a deux'.

They could have been beside themselves with grief and shock when the baby died and lost their minds completely. They had seemingly been long term freezing cold, sleep deprived, lacking all forms of sanitation, and probably malnourished.

Taking all that into account, I'd be prepared to accept they'd both become severely mentally unwell and in a psychiatric emergency for both. That could go some way to explain. However, at no point has that argument been made by their defence teams.

CM has gone through five different barristers from different law firms. I think she's still on number five but it could be six if there's been a change of representation. Not one of them has used poor mental health or psychiatric diagnosis as a defence or argument against being legally culpable and to explain the callous actions after the baby died. I think that speaks for itself. JMO MOO
 
  • #802
Once the police had conceded the 'humane' (as quoted from the police witness) thing to do in giving MG a sandwich, further requests for food / condiments could just as easily have been intended as delaying / obstructing police inquiry etc.

Throughout this trial and the last we have seen them deploy evasive tactics - false names, pretending to be muslim, and I think I recall CM invoking their rights / asking why they re being arrested etc . And then we know (from police evidence wrt interview) that MG refused to speak and said he would allow his peers to judge in court, not the police etc. I think they were well versed in evasive tactics and the mayonnaise request could have been just that. JMO.

Which also has the potential to paint a picture of people who prioritised their own welfare over answering questions, with no regard for the police, authorities etc. JMO .
 
  • #803
Re-post
Feb 6, 2024
''Constance Marten claimed her name was Arabella and told police “you can’t arrest someone for hiding a pregnancy” after she was was finally caught after almost eight weeks on the run, a court has heard.The aristocrat was also heard begging “please stop - he’s not been well” as her partner Mark Gordon was handcuffed and pinned to the ground after they were spotted by a member of the public.In bodyworn footage played to the jury at the Old Bailey on Tuesday, officers could be heard asking the couple where their newborn baby was after they were arrested in Brighton at 9.35pm on 27 February.The mother, 36 - who denies gross negligence manslaughter of her newborn daughter along with Gordon, 49 - did not respond when officers demanded: “Constance, Arabella, whoever you are... right, where’s your child?”
 
  • #804
So in that footage they did not speak except to call in support of MG, give a false name, ask for food, challenge the reason for arrest and challenge the arrest of MG.
No questions answered by either wrt their name, the whereabouts of the baby or understanding the terms of arrest. (given that the officer said 'suspicion of') . So answering a simple yes does not imply guilt.
 
  • #805
When will this trial resume?
 
  • #806
Adjourned for 2 weeks so that would make it 10th so Thursday?
 
  • #807
  • #808
It's not listed for tomorrow at the Old Bailey according to Courtserve.
Next Friday is Good Friday, so the OB won't sit then.
I'm not even sure that it sits on Maundy Thursday.
 
  • #809
The Crown Court at Central Criminal Court

[td]
Daily Courtroom List for Monday 14 April 2025





FINAL 1


Court 6


HIS HONOUR JUDGE LUCRAFT KC









SITTING AT 10:00 am

Trial (Part Heard)

T20237104GORDON Mark A01MP1072723SUSWMCPS
MARTEN Constance01MP1072723

DTA, Order made under Contempt of Court Act 1981








www.courtserve.net



 
  • #810
  • #811
  • #812
I have a feeling that this trial won't be much shorter than the last one. Jmo
 
  • #813
  • #814
  • #815
  • #816
  • #817
Constance Marten’s newborn baby was exposed to conditions which created a “substantial risk” of hypothermia before her death inside a tent off-grid in winter.
On Tuesday, jurors heard evidence from the chartered ergonomist who conducted experiments on the risk of hypothermia to Victoria.
Professor George Havenith examined the climatic conditions inside the tent and studied the microclimate inside layers of the Ms Marten’s clothing in weather conditions on the South Downs between 8 and 10 January 2023.

He told jurors at the Old Bailey that if the mother’s clothes and sleeping bag had remained dry, there was “just about enough” insulation to keep the baby safe.However if the clothing and tent got wet, the baby would have been in danger of hypothermia.
“Baby Marten, in the conditions stated, especially where moisture was present in the clothing both in the tent and on the way to the South Downs, would have been exposed to substantial climatic cold stress which would have led to a substantial risk of hypothermia.”

Professor Havenith told jurors that he took account of the temperatures in January 2023 as well as the impact of wind and moisture. As well as conditions inside and outside the tent, he also examined the microclimate between layers of clothing worn by Ms Marten.

Prosecutor Joel Smith KC asked: “If the baby were wearing only a babygrow with those temperatures either outside or inside a tent without a sleeping bag, what would be the risk of hypothermia?”

Professor Havenith replied that the risk “would be very high”, adding that the sleeping bags purchased by Mr Gordon were not fit for the conditions.

Asked about the impact of not having a mattress, he told jurors that it was an “essential” item and a sleeping bag was not an effective insulator.

The professor said an adult in a dry tent would have avoided hypothermia but would find it “very uncomfortable”.

He added: “Wet clothing reduces your insulation quite substantially. It means you will have to shiver harder. The stress on the adults would become bigger.”

An experiment with two PhD students – in appropriate clothing – breathing in a tent resulted in condensation running down the walls and on the floor, the court was told.

Prof Havenith told jurors: “Based on experience I would expect condensation to occur.

“It would not directly affect temperature, but water on walls and floor will be absorbed by clothing. I would expect the clothing to absorb more moisture.”




 
  • #818
Professor Havenith said that the tent was a bit warmer than the outside air temperature: "Inside the tent it gets up to five degrees (centigrade) higher than the outside,"

However, he said that with no mattresses, anyone lying on the floor of the tent would have been colder.

"The tent itself has virtually no insulation on the ground," he said



 
  • #819
A mannequin was dressed in the clothing worn by Marten or similar items to carry out some tests on insulation. They showed the clothing was not sufficient to maintain Marten’s body temperature if she was resting, the court was told.

Professor Havenith said Marten’s jacket was not waterproof and had only “a very low level of water repellents”.



 
  • #820
Loving all the scientific research this time round :)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
144
Guests online
1,119
Total visitors
1,263

Forum statistics

Threads
632,396
Messages
18,625,807
Members
243,134
Latest member
jynr74
Back
Top