GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged in death of baby Victoria, Guilty on counts 1 & 5, 2025 retrial on manslaughter, 5 Jan 2023 #8

[HongKongPhooey]

Thanks for this.

But has a witness said the late 2017 baby was MG's, or was this only said by the barrister? Also has anyone said the baby was CM's first and not just "their" first?

Am I missing the relevance to the assault somehow?

 

[Yellowbelly]

Am I missing the relevance to the assault somehow?

It'll be because when he gave evidence in his own defence, he stood there claiming to be a decent person who would never have done anything to hurt anyone, if it wasn’t for the fact that they were being chased. Then he refused to let that evidence be tested by cross examination. As a result, the prosecution were allowed to bring in this evidence of previous convictions/bad character as an alternative way to dispute his claims, showing he was both violent and had issues with the police long before Victoria was born.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

.

 

[Lucy6226]

Absolutely zero care for anyone but themselves....but we knew that already and they continue to show that in court

 

[Carriep]

IMO this trial could blow up in either direction.

I hope more evidence is given and tested regarding the 2017 birth and the surrounding circumstances. If it was CM's first baby, there can't have been any experiences with previous births that contributed to her reasons for using a false name. Experiences with a previous pregnancy, though, would be possible. "Why did you use a false name?" would be an obvious question IMO to put to both defendants. I continue to hope that both of them reconsider their decisions to refuse cross-examination.

 

[DianaWW]

The BBC link I shared earlier explains that social services had concerns and had issued a national alert, that’s why they gave false names. This was in the agreed facts.


‘In agreed facts read to the jury, the London court heard that Ms Marten first went to a hospital in London in June 2017 where she told them she had been living in a camper van.
Social services issued a "national hospital alert" to other parts of the NHS, which is issued when it is suspected a pregnant woman needs protection or support.
She then attended a hospital in Wales with Mr Gordon that winter where she was in the early stages of labour and admitted as an "unbooked case" - where the mother has had no NHS antenatal care.
She said her name was Isabella O'Brien, while Mr Gordon said his name was James Amer. Speaking with a fake Irish accent, she told staff she was from a travelling family, had never been to school and did not have an NHS number.’

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial: Four children taken into care - BBC News

A jury hears Constance Marten claimed she had not been to school - but was in fact from a wealthy family.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[JennieM]

Mark Gordon assaulted police on maternity ward, court hears​

Mark Gordon assaulted two female police officers on a maternity ward after the birth of his first child and had to be detained using leg restraints, a court has heard.

Mark Gordon assaulted police officers on maternity ward, court hears

The alleged assault happened in the hours after Constance Marten gave birth to their first child.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[JennieM]

"He was clenching his fists and his behaviour completely changed," she said.

[…]

"We were telling him to calm down, to comply," she said. "Obviously we had concerns over where we were - there were babies and other people around. We were concerned what he was capable of."

Mark Gordon assaulted police officers on maternity ward, court hears

The alleged assault happened in the hours after Constance Marten gave birth to their first child.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[bmacmillan1]

I haven't been following this trial...
Are these two parents in jail since being found guilty in the first trial?

 

[Alyce]

I haven't been following this trial...
Are these two parents in jail since being found guilty in the first trial?

Yes, they have been on remand since their arrest, back in February 2023

 

[bmacmillan1]

Yes, they have been on remand since their arrest, back in February 2023

Thanks, Alyce. Makes me feel better knowing that they are.

 

[Suspish]

Ugh, I see the pity party continues for these two. Everything that’s come out of their mouths has IMO painted a vivid picture of unwavering entitlement, self-righteous, self-serving, self-absorbed and selfish people. That’s alotta selfs, which is telling in itself..

It’s a fascinating (to me) insight into the mindset of the utterly narcissistic.
MG has basically used his recent taking of the stand as only an opportunity to once again claim their “true victimhood” against the nasty mean CPS and police without an ounce of accountability, even after two years to reflect. I also realised that in all their bleatings throughout this trial, it’s all been “I’ve suffered so much”, “We’ve been treated like…”, “It’s soo unfair on us!”. Not one word of sorrow at how their tiny baby must have suffered her sad few days of life, or remorse that they didn’t do right by her. There’s more empathy for sweet Victoria in one page, heck, one post here in their WS threads, which is so sad, but very on-brand for them.

MG insisting that Victoria would be alive and thriving if SS and the police had just left them alone to “let it play out” gave me a hollow laugh of disbelief. Lest we forget, their ‘master plan’ included considering handing newborn Victoria over to a carer THAT SHE FOUND ON GUMTREE who would smuggle her, alone, across the Channel while her parents would follow “later” Constance Marten planned to smuggle baby abroad, court told

And IF this harebrained ‘plan’ even worked, we were shown much evidence as to what they thought were totally acceptable child raising living conditions: I can’t find the link for the pictures of how they left one (council?) house they lived in with some of their kids, but the word “squalor” was used (if anyone could find a link to that I’ll be grateful!)

Then there was the AirBnB that they only stayed in for six days and left it in an absolutely vile state, food caked on the sides, trash all over the floor, urine splashed all over the toilet and floor, cat litter strewn everywhere and much more in the link: Aristocrat Constance Marten and her lover 'trashed holiday cottage'

Then the buying the hideously unsafe banger car which ended up catching fire, abandoning the poor probably terrified cat in a carrier next to said ablaze car, and of course the infamous tiny flimsy tent, unsuitable for bitter winter weather (echoing how social workers found the pair had been living in a festival tent with “damp blankets and bottles of urine” during her first pregnancy Constance Marten was living in ‘unsanitary’ tent pregnant with first baby, jury told)

I can’t even fathom how one could sit and be faced with all this evidence and more all at once, and instead of having a lightbulb moment of “Oh crud, maybe SS were right to look out for my innocent, dependent babies”, STILL be stubbornly clinging onto the defiant narrative of being unfairly victimised by the authorities!

 

[Suspish]

I very much hope the judge said to Gordon: " See you next Tuesday. "

Every day I lament the lack of a laughing reaction emoji

 

[Cardgame]

IMO this trial could blow up in either direction.

I hope more evidence is given and tested regarding the 2017 birth and the surrounding circumstances. If it was CM's first baby, there can't have been any experiences with previous births that contributed to her reasons for using a false name. Experiences with a previous pregnancy, though, would be possible. "Why did you use a false name?" would be an obvious question IMO to put to both defendants. I continue to hope that both of them reconsider their decisions to refuse cross-examination.

IIRC she said she was using a fake name because they thought if they said they were travellers they would get a free house. Kind of ironic given that she is landed gentry. This is also why she spent her entire labour doing a fake Irish accent. I believe this is called 'method acting'.

But seriously, how out of touch these two are. The idea that they could pass themselves off as members of the travelling community (to experienced healthcare workers) just by doing a fake Irish accent is so bizarre.

And the idea that they would simply be housed. It's such a posh person thing to think, that free houses are just handed out like sweets to 'poor people'. When in reality, the only people who really get given 'free housing' are people like Constance marten.

 

[Maltesepuppy]

IIRC she said she was using a fake name because they thought if they said they were travellers they would get a free house. Kind of ironic given that she is landed gentry. This is also why she spent her entire labour doing a fake Irish accent. I believe this is called 'method acting'.

But seriously, how out of touch these two are. The idea that they could pass themselves off as members of the travelling community (to experienced healthcare workers) just by doing a fake Irish accent is so bizarre.

And the idea that they would simply be housed. It's such a posh person thing to think, that free houses are just handed out like sweets to 'poor people'. When in reality, the only people who really get given 'free housing' are people like Constance marten.

And the baffling thing is that CM was getting a generous allowance at the time.
Where was the money going? Mayo isn't that expensive!
Maybe they felt entitled to "a free house" to "right the wrong" ,in CM'S deluded mind, that they didn’t get a house from her family. CM seemed really butthurt that her family, allegedly, denied them a house "because of his skin colour". Nothing to do with his violent past and, I daresay, the general arrogant and narcissistic way he conducts himself.
Maybe it was all a big joke and they thought they would be giggling in their free home, at how naive and stupid authorities are.
Just speculating because it's so hard to analyse these minds which are so far from being rational and having some grasp with reality.
They are pathetic, but not in a way I could feel compassion for. Pathetic in a way all I feel is disgust and contempt.
JMO MOO

 

[Carriep]

Mark Gordon 'attacked police officers in hospital after baby's birth'

Mark Gordon attacked police officers in the neo-natal ward of a hospital, trial hears

www.standard.co.uk

"Gordon agreed to provide his name, but then wrote down a fake name, ‘James Amer’, along with the date of birth of April 31.

“I realised there are only 30 days in April, and I said to him I suggest you start telling me the truth”, said DS Jones."

Has the document been exhibited?

 

[Carriep]

IIRC she said she was using a fake name because they thought if they said they were travellers they would get a free house. Kind of ironic given that she is landed gentry. This is also why she spent her entire labour doing a fake Irish accent. I believe this is called 'method acting'.

But seriously, how out of touch these two are. The idea that they could pass themselves off as members of the travelling community (to experienced healthcare workers) just by doing a fake Irish accent is so bizarre.

And the idea that they would simply be housed. It's such a posh person thing to think, that free houses are just handed out like sweets to 'poor people'. When in reality, the only people who really get given 'free housing' are people like Constance marten.

She would have to be very naive to think Travellers whether Irish or otherwise, and whether they have babies or older children or otherwise, get given free houses in Britain.

This is from the first trial (BBM):

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial: Four children taken into care

A jury hears Constance Marten claimed she had not been to school - but was in fact from a wealthy family.

www.bbc.co.uk

In agreed facts read to the jury, the London court heard that Ms Marten first went to a hospital in London in June 2017 where she told them she had been living in a camper van.

"Social services issued a "national hospital alert" to other parts of the NHS, which is issued when it is suspected a pregnant woman needs protection or support.

She then attended a hospital in Wales with Mr Gordon that winter where she was in the early stages of labour and admitted as an "unbooked case" - where the mother has had no NHS antenatal care.

She said her name was Isabella O'Brien, while Mr Gordon said his name was James Amer. Speaking with a fake Irish accent, she told staff she was from a travelling family, had never been to school and did not have an NHS number.

The jury heard previously that Ms Marten was from a wealthy family and by December 2022 was receiving a monthly allowance of £3,400.

When the couple's real identities were ascertained the police were called, as well as social services."

The thing with phrasings like "were ascertained" and "were called" is that they don't make it clear who did the ascertaining, or who did the calling, but nonetheless this sentence does say that the identities were ascertained before the police were called.

If the ascertainers knew CM and MG's real identities and called the police, then one might ask

* why did they call the police? (was there a law enforcement issue?)
* did they tell the police the real identities?
* how to view the police witness's evidence given in court yesterday about the writing down of the date 31 April and how she responded to it, if she already knew MG's identity at that time

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I think she was pretending to be a traveller to explain her lack of documentation and proof of identity.

So she obviously right back as far as baby number one didn't want the state to identify her or MG as having a baby. She must have already known that social services or LE would become involved somehow? Perhaps as they were already 'well known' to LE and other authorities for different issues (not related to procreation). That's all I can think.

I think the story about hoping for a house or whatever is either delusion because it would have fallen down right at the very initiation of proceedings where a person would need to provide some data about themselves -or- it's a cover story for the fact that both of them didn't want to be known to any form of authority.

JMO MOO


Edited by me to remove a statement not sure of.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

And the baffling thing is that CM was getting a generous allowance at the time.
Where was the money going? Mayo isn't that expensive!
Maybe they felt entitled to "a free house" to "right the wrong" ,in CM'S deluded mind, that they didn’t get a house from her family. CM seemed really butthurt that her family, allegedly, denied them a house "because of his skin colour". Nothing to do with his violent past and, I daresay, the general arrogant and narcissistic way he conducts himself.
Maybe it was all a big joke and they thought they would be giggling in their free home, at how naive and stupid authorities are.
Just speculating because it's so hard to analyse these minds which are so far from being rational and having some grasp with reality.
They are pathetic, but not in a way I could feel compassion for. Pathetic in a way all I feel is disgust and contempt.
JMO MOO

My recollection from previous trial is they wanted a council house under fake names to prevent her family/social care? from knowing where they were.

Their ongoing issue was always going to be her address would be revealed related to her access to money from The Trust (purchase home) and having a guarantor for any rental property.

Landlords for rental … reference /credit check tenants - checking with previous landlord, employer, possible police check. If both or either, has no employment a landlord might ask for 6 months rent in advance if considered at all. They would find it difficult without The Trust guaranteeing for her if they are not employed. The guarantee document would reveal address - relying on money from Trust was a problem.

 

[jackal67]

There w

She would have to be very naive to think Travellers whether Irish or otherwise, and whether they have babies or older children or otherwise, get given free houses in Britain.

This is from the first trial (BBM):

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial: Four children taken into care

A jury hears Constance Marten claimed she had not been to school - but was in fact from a wealthy family.

www.bbc.co.uk

The thing with phrasings like "were ascertained" and "were called" is that they don't make it clear who did the ascertaining, or who did the calling, but nonetheless this sentence does say that the identities were ascertained before the police were called.

If the ascertainers knew CM and MG's real identities and called the police, then one might ask

* why did they call the police? (was there a law enforcement issue?)
* did they tell the police the real identities?
* how to view the police witness's evidence given in court yesterday about the writing down of the date 31 April and how she responded to it, if she already knew MG's identity at that time

There was a nationwide hospital alert issued for CM after she attended the london hospital. We dont know the reasons for this but there must have been a good reason for the concern for CM
Once her real identity became known she would have flagged up on the system. hence calling the police.