UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #4

[JTT]

Anyone reading this who is attending the trial could try some wigspotting: a KC and a junior each for the CPS and each of the two defendants - that makes six - any others? I was wondering whether the SS may have instructed a barrister or at least have someone in court.

On another point: CM's statement to the police that she wanted a proper burial and didn't do a wildcat one because if an animal ate the body then that might affect the autopsy had me AGHAST at first. I thought what kind of narcissist when faced with the idea of an animal eating their daughter's body would concentrate most of all on the possible effect on an autopsy?! (A psycho killer is one possible answer to that question, but she isn't accused of that.) But when you think about it, perhaps someone who has accidentally fallen asleep on top of their baby and thereby caused her death, and who fears the SS, might take the view that it might be alleged that the baby had been savagely attacked, e.g. by a dog, while alive, while supposedly in her care, and therefore rule out a wildcat burial. And if she couldn't bring herself to carry out a cremation, then all this seems capable of being consistent with what little we know of the evidence so far, based on the prosecution opening speech including the extract from CM's statement.

 

[OceanElix]

Recap: Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial at the Old Bailey

Live updates from the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon accused of gross negligence manslaughter

www.theargus.co.uk

4:01pm
Mr Little is telling the jury that baby Victoria was Marten and Gordon's fifth child.

Their other four children were all placed in care.

Mr Little said: "The Prosecution suggest that it would have been apparent to both defendants that any further children would be taken into care."

Quite rightly imo. It's worse than I realised when I followed this early on. I'm appalled that they were carrying baby V in a supermarket bag for life when they had bothered to purchase a buggy/pram too, their actions make no sense to me.
Selfish and cruel indeed to put a tiny, helpless baby through such an awful ordeal.

 

[JennieM]

From the daily mail article somewhere above it says CM said:

‘She said the car had exploded when they were driving and she had the placenta with her because she intended on burying it as a 'religious thing because you can bury it and grow a tree from it- it's just something we do.'

Grow a tree but kill a baby. Yes, it all makes sense.

 

[OceanElix]

Anyone reading this who is attending the trial could try some wigspotting: a KC and a junior each for the CPS and each of the two defendants - that makes six - any others? I was wondering whether the SS may have instructed a barrister or at least have someone in court.

It's possible given the seriousness of the charges they may have instructed further legal representation. The allocated social worker if there was one, possibly even previous worker of another of their children may be in attendance, along with representative from the councils legal department.
There will no doubt be 'lessons learned'....

Imo

 

[JTT]

rbbm.

Wealthy woman and partner ‘kept baby in Lidl bag before dumping her’

The jury was told how Constance Marten 36, and Mark Gordon, 49 travelled across England in cars and taxis, with the newborn baby tucked underneath Marten’s coat and later kept in a Lidl “bag-for-life"

www.mylondon.news

Constance Marten's brother Tobias Marten and her mother Virginie de Selliers arrive at the Old Bailey
View attachment 477714

To judge from how bro and mum went to the Old Bailey today, it seems they expected CM to be in court.

 

[JTT]

It's possible given the seriousness of the charges they may have instructed further legal representation. The allocated social worker if there was one, possibly even previous worker of another of their children may be in attendance, along with representative from the councils legal department.
There will no doubt be 'lessons learned'....

Imo

How does the insurance work for SS?

 

[Twittens]

Constance Marten and her lover 'caused death of their baby girl'

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon are accused at the Old Bailey in London of fleeing across the country in a 'desperately selfish' bid to prevent their fifth child being taken away from them.

www.dailymail.co.uk

If Victoria died after 5-7 days after the car fire, then the baby seen on 19 February by the witness couldn't have been a live Victoria.

"After the body was found Marten answered police questions for the first time, the court heard.

She claimed the baby was born on Christmas Eve 2022 in Cumbria and was to be called Victoria.

Marten said that she had died three days after the car exploded, before correcting this to five or seven days.

She said: 'I had her in my jacket, I hadn't slept properly in quite a few days, I fell asleep holding her sitting up and she - when I woke up she wasn't alive.

'When I woke she wasn't alive in my jacket. I believe I fell asleep on top of her.

'But I literally didn't, she didn't, she didn't make any crying or movements so. And when I woke up she wasn't alive.

'Then I was holding her in my jacket, that's how I usually held her but I think I fell asleep crouching over her and she passed away.

'I wanted to turn myself in at the time, I've been debating it, obviously, it's two months later now, but I kept her body for a number of reasons.

'Number one, erm, I mean I'm sure you've seen the soil on top of it inside the bag.

'Because I wanted firstly - I've been debating whether to hand myself in, which I wish I did earlier, but the whole media presence and everything is kind of terrifying a little bit.

'And also I kept the body because I wanted to have an autopsy done - I didn't bury her because I wanted her to have a proper burial but I couldn't get a proper burial until I had an autopsy.

'So I've been carrying her around not knowing what to do really. I didn't want to bury her in a forest, or some random place, because I wanted her to have a proper burial but also because I was concerned, err, if an animal might eat her, that would affect the autopsy.

'I don't know if you found there's a bottle of petroleum in the bag because I debated whether to cremate her myself, get rid of the evidence, but I decided to keep her because I knew at some point in the future I was going to be asked about it, but I just didn't know what to do.

'So that's why we're here really. I didn't say anything yesterday because obviously the charge is quite serious. I didn't know what to do.'

She said the car had exploded when they were driving and she had the placenta with her because she intended on burying it as a 'religious thing because you can bury it and grow a tree from it- it's just something we do.'

Marten added the baby had 'the clothes on her back- a very warm waterproof onesie.'

She said they had intended on finding a flat but were 'shocked' when someone approached and asked if they were the two people from the news.

'We didn't think we were on national television. And that's when things kinda went downhill from there. But she always had clothes and nappies and things to keep her clean.

'She was well looked after- she wasn't cold or anything.

'Everyone seemed to recognise us, jeering and pointing and taking pictures of us, so that's when we decided we're not going to find a flat, because anyone could hand us in to the police.

'That's when we decided to get a tent at that point.

'So, in order to save her from the services, then we would have to probably remove ourselves from society till we could find a house.'"

That transcript makes her seem completely untethered from reality.

Her ideas of what might be possible seem like those of someone very young and naive or with a very low IQ, even though we know she's neither of those things.

 

[JennieM]

rbbm.

Wealthy woman and partner ‘kept baby in Lidl bag before dumping her’

The jury was told how Constance Marten 36, and Mark Gordon, 49 travelled across England in cars and taxis, with the newborn baby tucked underneath Marten’s coat and later kept in a Lidl “bag-for-life"

www.mylondon.news

Constance Marten's brother Tobias Marten and her mother Virginie de Selliers arrive at the Old Bailey
View attachment 477714
''Mr Little said: “The second defendant comes from a wealthy family. She has not had a deprived upbringing. She had potential access to money and whatever help she needed.”

The jury was told how the couple had travelled across England in cars and taxis, with the newborn baby tucked underneath Marten’s coat and later kept in a Lidl “bag-for-life”.

On December 20 2022, they had booked into a holiday cottage in Northumberland, leaving it in a “disgusting state”, jurors heard.''


''Marten and Gordon allegedly “smelt very unpleasant” upon their arrest in Brighton on February 27 and had furniture stuffing and paper with their clothing for extra warmth.''

CM’s mother and brother have the exact same facial expression.

 

[JennieM]

'When I woke up she wasn't alive': Constance Marten told police her baby died when she fell asleep with her in her jacket before she 'debated cremating her with bottle of petrol' - as court hears aristocrat had four other children taken into care

Constance Marten told police baby died when she fell asleep with her

Constance Marten, 36, and Mark Gordon, 49, are accused of fleeing across the country in a bid to prevent little Victoria being taken away from them after losing custody of all their previous children.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[JennieM]

Baby girl died due to negligent conduct of parents who went on run, court told
Infant ‘never stood a chance’ after her parents went off-grid in freezing conditions, Old Bailey jurors told

Baby girl died due to negligent conduct of parents who went on run, court told

Infant carried around in ‘bag for life’ after parents went off-grid in freezing conditions, Old Bailey jurors told

www.theguardian.com

 

[Anxala]

That transcript makes her seem completely untethered from reality.

Her ideas of what might be possible seem like those of someone very young and naive or with a very low IQ, even though we know she's neither of those things.

Do we though? Neither of the parents sound like they're operating on full cylinders. I'm not making any excuses for them but for them to have had 4 children removed from their care does not point to remotely objective or critically engaged people. They sound like they were living very much in a distorted world of their own. There has to be a mental health issue here.

 

[JennieM]

1 hour ago

Constance Marten trial: Baby kept in Lidl bag before being dumped, court told

Constance Marten trial: Baby kept in Lidl bag before being dumped, court told

Constance Marten and her partner Mark Gordon are on trial for the manslaughter of their newborn baby.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[JennieM]

She told officers she kept the body because she wanted an autopsy to be performed, adding: "I've been carrying her around not knowing what to do."

Ms Marten also told police she and Mr Gordon had planned to buy a flat but were recognised when they travelled to London to find one.

She continued: "In order to save [the baby] from the services, then we would have to probably remove ourselves from society till we could find a house"

Mr Gordon told police their situation went "really down really quickly" after their car caught fire with possessions inside.

Ms Marten said in an interview they considered turning themselves in and insisted the baby had adequate clothing to survive outdoors, which the prosecution disputes.

Constance Marten trial: Baby kept in Lidl bag before being dumped, court told

Constance Marten and her partner Mark Gordon are on trial for the manslaughter of their newborn baby.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Twittens]

Do we though? Neither of the parents sound like they're operating on full cylinders. I'm not making any excuses for them but for them to have had 4 children removed from their care does not point to remotely responsible or critically engaged people. There has to be a mental health issue here. They sound like they were living very much in a distorted world of their own.

I agree. I think that there are mental health issues is abundantly clear. But the way she comes across in that transcript makes her sound stupid or very young imho, and I think we do know that she's neither of those.

I can't make sense of it. They'd been recognised, or thought they had, and thought the best thing to do would be to sleep rough until they could "find a house"? I mean, that's not a thing really, is it. You don't just "find" a house, especially not once you're in the position these two were in by then. Given a psychiatric assessment has apparently found her fit to stand trial, I'm just surprised by how tenuous her grasp on reality appears to be in that interview.

 

[Earthwindfire]

I agree. I think that there are mental health issues is abundantly clear. But the way she comes across in that transcript makes her sound stupid or very young imho, and I think we do know that she's neither of those.

I can't make sense of it. They'd been recognised, or thought they had, and thought the best thing to do would be to sleep rough until they could "find a house"? I mean, that's not a thing really, is it. You don't just "find" a house, especially not once you're in the position these two were in by then. Given a psychiatric assessment has apparently found her fit to stand trial, I'm just surprised by how tenuous her grasp on reality appears to be in that interview.

There's no doubt in my mind that there is quite serious mental health difficulties based on the transcript. Although it could be argued that the defendants have made it seem that way.

 

[JennieM]

It says they were planning to buy a flat in London. Did she have enough funds available and accessible? Or would her family pay for it?

Constance Marten trial: Baby kept in Lidl bag before being dumped, court told

Constance Marten and her partner Mark Gordon are on trial for the manslaughter of their newborn baby.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Lolabear]

If she was carrying round a deceased baby for a few weeks the decomposition would be awful. If that sighting of her with a wobbly headed baby was them then I think the baby was probably born later than Xmas eve. By the middle of February the body would be in a mess and stink to high heaven. But why lie about the date of birth? All very bizzare. They got taxis in this time frame...the smell from the baby if deceased would be noticable to a driver surely

 

[Alyce]

Do we though? Neither of the parents sound like they're operating on full cylinders. I'm not making any excuses for them but for them to have had 4 children removed from their care does not point to remotely objective or critically engaged people. They sound like they were living very much in a distorted world of their own. There has to be a mental health issue here.

Whilst there may be some mental inbalance ( which I am sure both of the accused will want to maximise to the fullest for their advantage ) I tend to feel the main reason for their behaviour is covered in Mr Little's description earlier today.

reckless, utterly selfish, callous, cruel, arrogant and ultimately grossly negligent

 

[Skigh]

If she was carrying round a deceased baby for a few weeks the decomposition would be awful. If that sighting of her with a wobbly headed baby was them then I think the baby was probably born later than Xmas eve. By the middle of January the body would be in a mess and stink to high heaven. But why lie about the date of birth? All very bizzare. They got taxis in this time frame...the smell from the baby if deceased would be noticable to a driver surely

Maybe she chose Christmas Eve as she hoped that people might connect it to Jesus being born in the stable.

 

[JTT]

It says they were planning to buy a flat in London. Did she have enough funds available and accessible? Or would her family pay for it?

Constance Marten trial: Baby kept in Lidl bag before being dumped, court told

Constance Marten and her partner Mark Gordon are on trial for the manslaughter of their newborn baby.

www.bbc.co.uk

The word "buy" could well be creative reporting by the state media organisation.

Even the Daily Mail reports that "She said they had intended on finding a flat".