UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #5

[Alyce]

Do you have a date/context for this, please?

In the videos, Marten is seen buying snacks at the Texaco petrol station in Avis Way, Newhaven on January 12 last year.

Jury shown alleged Constance Marten CCTV from 2023

In CCTV shown to a court, an individual alleged to be Constance Marten is seen buying snacks from a petrol station and filling up a bottle at a petrol pump.

news.sky.com

 

[Nikynoo]

DBM

 

[Obergine]

If you look to the right of the picture you'll see it says Seaford and just above has a blue flag for the golf course.

 

[Kye Zeeb]

That's a slightly inflammatory headline!

I'm horrified. Surely it's not allowable to print such assumptions presented as 'fact' during the course of a trial? Is anybody familiar enough with the legal side of publication to comment, IANAL.

 

[InstantCoffee]

Just had a look at the live feed for this morning - they are already on a break! But evidence from witnesses so far today seems to stress how by later in February both CM & MG were obviously hungry, dishevelled, unwashed, injured (MG walking with bag on foot and tree branch as stick) and attempting to shoplift. I think it seems to show how things quickly went downhill in Feb. They have gone from taxis, hotels and having plenty of cash to feeling so hunted they were in hiding with no access to food, proper shelter or hygiene. And if that was the case for them, then it was also the case for their daughter for however long she remained alive! JMO

 

[Kye Zeeb]

In the videos, Marten is seen buying snacks at the Texaco petrol station in Avis Way, Newhaven on January 12 last year.

Jury shown alleged Constance Marten CCTV from 2023

In CCTV shown to a court, an individual alleged to be Constance Marten is seen buying snacks from a petrol station and filling up a bottle at a petrol pump.

news.sky.com

Thank you

 

[Cherwell]

I'm horrified. Surely it's not allowable to print such assumptions presented as 'fact' during the course of a trial? Is anybody familiar enough with the legal side of publication to comment, IANAL.

I thought that, but it appears to be a quote as it's in quotation marks. Presumably from the prosecution.

 

[Cherwell]

Just had a look at the live feed for this morning - they are already on a break! But evidence from witnesses so far today seems to stress how by later in February both CM & MG were obviously hungry, dishevelled, unwashed, injured (MG walking with bag on foot and tree branch as stick) and attempting to shoplift. I think it seems to show how things quickly went downhill in Feb. They have gone from taxis, hotels and having plenty of cash to feeling so hunted they were in hiding with no access to food, proper shelter or hygiene. And if that was the case for them, then it was also the case for their daughter for however long she remained alive! JMO

It's hard not to conclude that if there had been no highly-publicised manhunt they would have had access to money, safe accommodation and food, and the baby would have been fine. That is assuming the baby was healthy to begin with, sadly some babies die through no fault of anyone.

 

[Pidgy]

That's a slightly inflammatory headline!

IMO it would be prejudicial if jurors saw it. She says Victoria died on 11 January, which is the day before she bought the petrol. The way the Daily Mail puts it is suggestive of murder, which she is not accused of. I know "kill" can also cover manslaughter, but to buy petrol and then kill someone afterwards has certain connotations.

She said in her interview that she considered burning the body but couldn't do it.

It could be that the prosecution will accept a date of 11 January for Victoria's death, given that she bought petrol on 12 January.

Also it could be that she wanted the petrol for cooking in the woods. But I think that's less likely. They seem to have been more into eating sweets, which keeps you awake but doesn't give you much nutrition or fill you up. They were perhaps not so super-skilled at living on the run as was suggested during the manhunt.

As for the bins outside the golf club, IIRC the defence counsel challenged a witness and put it to her that the couple she saw may not have been CM and MG. Since it's being reported that two sets of footage show them rummaging through the bins, I guess it's now accepted that it was them.

I haven't seen the video, but if these were large steel bins about 2 metres high as they probably were, I suspect they may not have been looking to take things out but rather investigating the idea of putting Victoria's body into one of the bins.

 

[Pidgy]

"We are now seeing the bodycam footage of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon being arrested."

I wonder how this goes to the prosecution case, and in particular which of the five charges on the indictment it is supposed to support. The same goes for their being smelly. That's consistent with their not being great at living on the run, or well-prepared. It doesn't suggest much IMO that's relevant to whether they did or didn't commit any of the crimes they're charged with.

And as for these continual references to their whispering to each other in court. I wish this reporting would stop. They're allowed to do that. Barristers whisper to each other all the time in court. They are not disrupting proceedings or showing disrespect for the court. They are jointly charged and they are allowed to confer in how they run their respective cases, including live during the trial. It's good for justice that they are allowed to present their case and challenge the crown's case in what they see as the best possible way. Then the jury decides. They should be allowed to sit next to each other, rather than being treated as wild animals. The judge presides over that courtroom, and if anyone disrupts or shows contempt, don't worry - he knows what to do.

 

[Smccat]

I haven't seen the video, but if these were large steel bins about 2 metres high as they probably were, I suspect they may not have been looking to take things out but rather investigating the idea of putting Victoria's body into one of the bins.

SBM.
I doubt it. CM had already said that she was carrying Victoria around because she didn't really know what to do but wanted her to be buried properly which is why she didn't go ahead with using the petrol.

 

[Pidgy]

SBM.
I doubt it. CM had already said that she was carrying Victoria around because she didn't really know what to do but wanted her to be buried properly which is why she didn't go ahead with using the petrol.

You could be right, but not knowing what to do may mean she was going to do X (burning), then decided no, then she was going to do Y (bin), then decided no, etc., and possibly thought of a few other ways of disposing of the body too. The trying to put the can of food (no brandname mentioned in this case) in her pocket in the shop and then dropping it, and then they go to the ATM - this suggests she was in quite a state. The month between Victoria's death and her arrest (if it was a month) may have passed quite quickly for her as she kept it together to be out of police reach while she was looking after a partner with mental health problems....and in other aspects of her life she may have been pretty much in pieces, carrying a dead baby around.

 

[Kye Zeeb]

It's hard not to conclude that if there had been no highly-publicised manhunt they would have had access to money, safe accommodation and food, and the baby would have been fine. That is assuming the baby was healthy to begin with, sadly some babies die through no fault of anyone.

This may well emerge as an argument put forward by the defence IMO.

 

[dalsglen]

SBM.
I doubt it. CM had already said that she was carrying Victoria around because she didn't really know what to do but wanted her to be buried properly which is why she didn't go ahead with using the petrol.

And yet she left her dumped in a bag with rubbish no?

 

[Nikynoo]

Just had a look at the live feed for this morning - they are already on a break! But evidence from witnesses so far today seems to stress how by later in February both CM & MG were obviously hungry, dishevelled, unwashed, injured (MG walking with bag on foot and tree branch as stick) and attempting to shoplift. I think it seems to show how things quickly went downhill in Feb. They have gone from taxis, hotels and having plenty of cash to feeling so hunted they were in hiding with no access to food, proper shelter or hygiene. And if that was the case for them, then it was also the case for their daughter for however long she remained alive! JMO

in his statement to police, MG said things unravelled pretty quickly after the car fire. MG was also seen wearing plastic bags on both feet in London in January.

 

[Nikynoo]

And yet she left her dumped in a bag with rubbish no?

to be precise. CM left baby V in a bag containing some dirt. That bag was underneath a pile of rubbish.

 

[Nikynoo]

You could be right, but not knowing what to do may mean she was going to do X (burning), then decided no, then she was going to do Y (bin), then decided no, etc., and possibly thought of a few other ways of disposing of the body too. The trying to put the can of food (no brandname mentioned in this case) in her pocket in the shop and then dropping it, and then they go to the ATM - this suggests she was in quite a state. The month between Victoria's death and her arrest (if it was a month) may have passed quite quickly for her as she kept it together to be out of police reach while she was looking after a partner with mental health problems....and in other aspects of her life she may have been pretty much in pieces, carrying a dead baby around.

I found it interesting that she put the food back and then decided to 'break cover' (for want of better phrasing) and withdrew cash from the atm, knowing that her card was probaby being watched.

 

[ShadowPuppet]

12:41pm

'Let me eat, let me eat'​

Mark Gordon upon being arrested collapses to the floor shortly after.
He keeps telling the officer "Let me eat, let me eat. Let me have my food".
Marten adds: "Leave him alone, let him eat please."
Gordon is then detained on the floor.

Live - The Argus

This strikes me as a very unusual exchange. I appreciate they were very hungry, but imo there’s an element of trying to control the situation. The UK police are known to give snacks and drinks during interviews and I’d assume would want them as co-operative as possible. I’ve heard of homeless people being interviewed to be given a quick meal, so they’re able to focus on answering questions and not hunger. Obviously neither are thinking clearly, but it’s just an exchange that really suggests (JMO) the lack of trust, potential victim mentality and desperation to regain some control in the way things were going.

 

[Telltale]

It's hard not to conclude that if there had been no highly-publicised manhunt they would have had access to money, safe accommodation and food, and the baby would have been fine. That is assuming the baby was healthy to begin with, sadly some babies die through no fault of anyone.

Considering they had found them both living with a previous newborn in a shittty waterlogged tent surrounded by bottles of piss I wouldn't be so sure on that.

The authorities didn't hunt them like animals and drive them into conditions that ultimately killed their baby.

They had a long history of startling neglect despite having none of the common struggles of poverty, lack of resources or addiction that usually drive such conditions.

They had the money to have a comfortable, on or off grid home without even working. They had the money for mental healthcare, childcare support and legal representation. They had repeated intense social services support in an attempt to put them in a position to raise their children in a safe and healthy environment.

Instead chose to subject their children to these sorts of conditions over and over and cut any family friends or services who dared try and tell them to be better. She acted like this from her very first baby.

The authorities were doing exactly what they are supposed to do, sadly they got there too late. If less of the public had bought into the mean old Social Services bollocks then maybe they'd have been faster to report sightings while Victoria was still alive to be rescued.

 

[Themac101]

Considering they had found them both living with a previous newborn in a tent surrounded by bottles of piss I wouldn't be so sure on that.

The authorities didn't hunt them like animals and drive them into conditions that ultimately killed their baby.

They had a long history of startling neglect despite having none of the common struggles of poverty, lack of resources or addiction that usually drive such conditions. They chose to live like that over and over and acted like this from her very first baby.

The authorities were doing exactly what they are supposed to do, sadly too late. If less of the public had bought into the mean old social services bollocks then maybe they'd have been faster to report sightings while Victoria was still alive to be rescued.

Amen. Obviously far more to this than a couple living healthily off grid or in an alternative lifestyle, being hounded by over zealous authorities.