UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #5

[Obergine]

The way she handled the baby was shocking but I didn't see it as deliberately callous just utterly exhausted - but also demonstrating a lack of awareness which affirms the concerns SS had that they were essentially incapable of adequate care. The conversation looked fraught to me not chatty.

 

[porkypies]

Thank you for the timeline RSF.
So, if Victoria was born at the car fire on 5 Jan. she lived for 4 days if she died on 9 Jan. as claimed by CM.
Her distressed crying on the morning of 6 Jan. concerned the witness Mr. Gosling sufficiently for him to try to help the couple for the sake of the baby.
If she was born on 24 December as claimed by CM, she lived for about 16 days, so how did the couple keep her quiet during that time to the extent that no-one else witnessed such loud or distressed crying baby?
Mr. Goslings concern must certainly have worried them because it drew so much attention?

 

[Alyce]

deleted as answered further down the thread

 

[Earthwindfire]

This leapt out at me. I hadn't read it before.

CM was 9 when he left. I can only imagine that her father leaving the family to go and find himself on the other side of the world was an extremely painful experience for a 9-year-old.

This bit of added detail makes me wonder if her coping mechanism was attaching some kind of romance or depth to the concept of bumming around living out of the back of a vehicle, because it's a funny kind of thing to run in the family otherwise.

JMOO

In addition to this, I think there's a bit of a trend for rather wealthy middle class people in their 20s to 'slum it' warehouse living style or in vans/lorries. There is something considered artsy/bohemian about it and a bit of an adventure. I mean I sort of like the idea of it in a hippy sort of way, however my life has bills that must be paid by me and no trust fund!

So I've just listened to today's "the trial" podcast, and apparently when Ken Hudson (car fire witness) was giving evidence talking about feeling guilt and how the baby might "still be alive" if they had stayed at the scene instead, Constance's mother loudly said "Quite!" from the public gallery in response.

What's that all about?

wow! She'd have got a telling off from the judge for that I would have thought.

 

[bobbymkii]

Mmm ....... best not say

I really genuinely don't know what she could have meant by that brief remark, which is why I asked it as such an open question

 

[Earthwindfire]

I really genuinely don't know what she could have meant by that brief remark, which is why I asked it as such an open question

I presume she was placing blame on the witness for not doing more which is quite astounding really!

 

[Alyce]

I presume she was placing blame on the witness for not doing more which is quite astounding really!

that was my thought - blame the person who tries to help your daughter

 

[imstilla.grandma]

The first clear footage of Constance Martin and Mark Gordon’s baby has been shown to jurors at their trial

Constance Marten's newborn baby seen for first time in images shown to jury

Old Bailey sees CCTV footage of dark-haired child dressed in a babygrow, her hands and arms moving around

inews.co.uk

 

[Alyce]

Also at the end of the latest podcast, Mr Gosling says MG was talking about being concerned for the safety of his son


linking again for clarity

The Trial

True Crime Podcast · Updated twice weekly · For ad-free listening to The Trial, exclusive bonus episodes every week, and complete access to previous series of the show, subscribe to The Crime Desk now. Visit thecrimedesk.com to become a member.…

podcasts.apple.com

 

[Earthwindfire]

Also at the end of the latest podcast, Mr Gosling says MG was talking about being concerned for the safety of his son


linking again for clarity

The Trial

True Crime Podcast · Updated twice weekly · For ad-free listening to The Trial, exclusive bonus episodes every week, and complete access to previous series of the show, subscribe to The Crime Desk now. Visit thecrimedesk.com to become a member.…

podcasts.apple.com

I wonder if that was genuine confusion or trying to make out like he's confused and mad.

 

[HollyHunter9]

Thank you for the timeline RSF.
So, if Victoria was born at the car fire on 5 Jan. she lived for 4 days if she died on 9 Jan. as claimed by CM.
Her distressed crying on the morning of 6 Jan. concerned the witness Mr. Gosling sufficiently for him to try to help the couple for the sake of the baby.
If she was born on 24 December as claimed by CM, she lived for about 16 days, so how did the couple keep her quiet during that time to the extent that no-one else witnessed such loud or distressed crying baby?
Mr. Goslings concern must certainly have worried them because it drew so much attention?

I agree it doesnt look deliberately callous but more the lack of awareness of how to appropriately handle and care for a newborn.

 

[GreekGal]

The DM one perhaps ? it's a longer video that the earlier clips - link above

Good grief! I notice that apart from all the rough, cruel, selfish and insensitive treatment of their baby daughter, CM appears to have perfectly manicured, dark red nails in the kebab shop clip. Seemingly she was putting her own vanity before other more important matters. I'm speechless.

 

[Lolabear]

I wonder if that was genuine confusion or trying to make out like he's confused and mad.

This will sound crazy but its crossed my mind more than once due to differing birth dates, witnesses seeing and not seeing babies etc...is there any possibility she had a multiple birth, twins maybe? Probably completely stupid but it has crossed my mind!

 

[Earthwindfire]

This will sound crazy but its crossed my mind more than once due to differing birth dates, witnesses seeing and not seeing babies etc...is there any possibility she had a multiple birth, twins maybe? Probably completely stupid but it has crossed my mind!

That's a fair point. However i think they would be able to tell from the placenta, wouldn't they?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

So I've just listened to today's "the trial" podcast, and apparently when Ken Hudson (car fire witness) was giving evidence talking about feeling guilt and how the baby might "still be alive" if they had stayed at the scene instead, Constance's mother loudly said "Quite!" from the public gallery in response.

What's that all about?

Blaming everyone except her daughter? Anyhow IMO someone disruptive to a witness giving evidence should be ashamed of themselves and barred from further attending. It's incredibly intimidating.

 

[Earthwindfire]

This podcast is interesting as it repeats verbatim what witnesses have said which paints a very different picture from the news reports.

The witness in Harwich said CM seemed up for coming back for a cup of tea and getting help. Also that she seemed anxious.

 

[Willowy]

The way CM handles the poor baby is so telling. The way she's concealing her in her coat is like she's hiding something she's nicked from a shop, rather than cradling a newborn baby. I also wonder if the baby was feeding properly. It doesn't seem like CM really knows what to do with her? Breastfeeding can be tough, it doesn't always come as naturally as it's made out to be. I imagine the actual reality of caring for a baby off-grid came as a bit of a shock, and combined with the loss of the car, the baby became a burden perhaps. (Do we know how the car ended up on fire by the way?)

 

[Henrymoggington]

This will sound crazy but its crossed my mind more than once due to differing birth dates, witnesses seeing and not seeing babies etc...is there any possibility she had a multiple birth, twins maybe? Probably completely stupid but it has crossed my mind!

I must admit, yesterday for the first time, I did wonder could there have been two

 

[dotr]

Jan 2023 lengthy. repost

Convicted rapist Mark Gordon’s sex crimes revealed

The Independent has obtained 23 pages of confidential US court documents on Mark Gordon, who served 20 years for rape and battery

www.independent.co.uk

''On 29 April 1989, Gordon - armed with a kitchen knife and garden shears - entered a woman’s home via the bathroom window on 29 April. His face was covered by a nylon stocking to conceal his identity as he approached the woman’s bedroom, since he was known by her.''

''The documents say Gordon: “Ordered the victim back into the bedroom and while still armed demanded that the victim undress.”

''Gordon then raped the victim, holding her against her will in the property for four and a half hours.

Two young children were sleeping in the room next door at the time of the attack, documents state.''

Less than a month later on 21 May 1989, Gordon attempted to rob a home only six doors away from his first victim. The court documents show he entered this home armed with a “flat-headed shovel” before picking up knives in the home to further arm himself.

Court documents state that Gordon encountered the man, one of multiple occupants of the house, lying in bed when he suddenly awakened, “at which time the defendant beat the victim about his head and body” with the shovel.''

 

[ShadowPuppet]

@Lolabear, I think it would be very unlikely. If the placenta was at all intact they’d be able to tell from the multiple umbilical cords and heavier weight if identical and if fraternal (separate placentas) I think weight differs. It would be unusual to reach due date with multiples (the reasons CS are often early, apart from medical risks to a baby, is also because the mum tends to go into labour earlier), equally, it’s more likely one baby would be in a harder position for vaginal birth.

The son comment is interesting, but I’m assuming he wasn’t talking about Victoria at that point? Also that the Gosling seems to believe CM was considering the hospital while MG was not.

Edited to add placenta comment in brackets in case unclear for fraternal twins.