UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #5

[rightsaidfred]

Hi I'm very new around these parts although have lurked for a long time. Decided to sign up as this case has been at the forefront of my mind for a long time.

I think that religion may hold a big piece of the puzzle here. As we know CM was a member of the TB Joshua cult many years ago. I think that while escaping it she still probably held on to a lot of her 'Christian' beliefs (pure speculation) and was looking to fill that 'God Shaped Hole' again. I believe that MG perhaps came to her rescue in that respect.

I've been doing a bit of reading around 'The Local Church', the organisation who published the Bible found in the car. Why would they have that edition if they didn't have some link? It's not an easy edition to come across. The Local Church tries to separate members from their families, they also follow a lot of the practices of the Plymouth Brethren. I used to have Plymouth Brethren neighbours... they considered themselves, 'in the world but not of it' and were a very strict sect. If they did have these beliefs it would account for a lot of the 'us against the world' mentality.

It's also completely anecdotal but of the few aristocratic / wealthy boarding school people I have known - being Born Again has been quite a common feature. Alpha Courses etc. One even joined the clergy.

I have a personal theory that they met at church.

We don't know how they met, but we do know they lived nearby each other.

CM clearly holds Christian beliefs; she went to an evangelical course when she was 18/19 and that's how she found out about TB Joshua, and ultimately why she went to Nigeria to join his church / cult.

I'd be completely unsurprised if a black man from Birmingham via the Deep South's prison system had found God along the way.

Given their entirely different socioeconomic backgrounds, they're unlikely to have met through mutual friends or work, so church seems a plausible option.

I didn't grow up Christian and I only really have the knowledge of it that you tend to pick up by default if you go through the British schooling system, so it would be easy for some of the nuances to pass me by. I'd never heard of the Local Church until this thread! Do they have any churches in the UK - especially around Ilford where I think they certainly lived at one point and may have been living when they met?

 

[Bibno]

I have a personal theory that they met at church.

We don't know how they met, but we do know they lived nearby each other.

CM clearly holds Christian beliefs; she went to an evangelical course when she was 18/19 and that's how she found out about TB Joshua, and ultimately why she went to Nigeria to join his church / cult.

I'd be completely unsurprised if a black man from Birmingham via the Deep South's prison system had found God along the way.

Given their entirely different socioeconomic backgrounds, they're unlikely to have met through mutual friends or work, so church seems a plausible option.

I didn't grow up Christian and I only really have the knowledge of it that you tend to pick up by default if you go through the British schooling system, so it would be easy for some of the nuances to pass me by. I'd never heard of the Local Church until this thread! Do they have any churches in the UK - especially around Ilford where I think they certainly lived at one point and may have been living when they met?

I’ve been looking into this a bit, according to the Christianity sub on Reddit the Local Church is the recruitment arm of Witness Lee’s Lord’s Recovery Local Church, which is a high-control group.

The Amana Trust are in Romford, which is very close to Ilford, and it looks like they sell publications for this organisation.

About Us

amanatrust.org.uk

As well as Witness Lee, there is Watchman Nee. This church started in China in the 1930s. And seems to have a presence in the US.

This is just what I have gleaned through casual browsing and have no Christian background or knowledge of cults either, but this church is looking a bit culty to me.

They also have a hall/church in Romford

Contact Us – Church in London

www.churchinlondon.org.uk

 

[InstantCoffee]

It's definitely culty. In fact they go to great lengths on their website of FAQ to proclaim how much they are not a cult! Protesting just a bit too much!

Local Churches FAQ – Frequently asked questions concerning the local churches

I have wider family who are part of a Christian sect who also have very similar and strong beliefs to Plymouth Brethren. If you are not of their branch of faith then you are not in 'the truth' and cannot be 'saved'. There is a lot of not associating with people in the wider world. For example in both Plymouth Brethren and my family's 'sect' children are home educated so they stay within the faith and the 'truth'. If CM & MG are involved in The Local Church then any 'interference' from authorities would be seen as trying to take them / their children away from 'the truth' and something they would do everything in their power to not allow to happen.

 

[Kye Zeeb]

This document about concealed pregnancy is from Sussex Child Protection, but the general contents will probably be relevant throughout England. It's interesting as to what could be classed as a criminal offence and which situations would trigger SS intervention.

Sussex Safeguarding and Child Protection Policy and Procedures Resource

Sussex Safeguarding and Child Protection Policy and Procedures

sussexchildprotection.procedures.org.uk

 

[ShadowPuppet]

@irnbru - I think some of the little things are surprising, even though they’re not technically. I totally agree though, the whole fact that SS has been involved, they were living in a tent with a baby, moving around constantly etc and no chance to recover from the birth would make most behave in ways that didn’t make logical sense to an outsider.

@InstantCoffee I agree religion could play a big part - and (all JMOO) not only religion, but unusual and quite extreme practices. That quote, “He made everyone your enemy and you everyone’s enemy” from the TB Joshua documentary has stuck with me and makes me think in some ways that way of thinking could be key to understanding why CM may perceive the world in the way she does. (Imo) If she was Christian prior to the cult and is still Christian, it would be difficult to untangle her own identity and thoughts/feelings from the cult’s teachings and that from her original Christian practice and the text in the bible. I think religion could be the link between them, whether he had heard of/been involved in the cult, he could easily have become Christian in prison and they could have shared similarly traumatic stories about their own experiences.

 

[porkypies]

@irnbru - I think some of the little things are surprising, even though they’re not technically. I totally agree though, the whole fact that SS has been involved, they were living in a tent with a baby, moving around constantly etc and no chance to recover from the birth would make most behave in ways that didn’t make logical sense to an outsider.

@InstantCoffee I agree religion could play a big part - and (all JMOO) not only religion, but unusual and quite extreme practices. That quote, “He made everyone your enemy and you everyone’s enemy” from the TB Joshua documentary has stuck with me and makes me think in some ways that way of thinking could be key to understanding why CM may perceive the world in the way she does. (Imo) If she was Christian prior to the cult and is still Christian, it would be difficult to untangle her own identity and thoughts/feelings from the cult’s teachings and that from her original Christian practice and the text in the bible. I think religion could be the link between them, whether he had heard of/been involved in the cult, he could easily have become Christian in prison and they could have shared similarly traumatic stories about their own experiences.

I don't see any reason why MG would have to have become a Christian in prison. He may have already been a Christian as a teenager having been born into a Christian family?
I'm not sure what the qualifications are for belonging to a particular religion, but it seems to me that all crimes are committed by all sides with forgiveness and second chances being the order of the day.

 

[Nikynoo]

This document about concealed pregnancy is from Sussex Child Protection, but the general contents will probably be relevant throughout England. It's interesting as to what could be classed as a criminal offence and which situations would trigger SS intervention.

Sussex Safeguarding and Child Protection Policy and Procedures Resource

Sussex Safeguarding and Child Protection Policy and Procedures

sussexchildprotection.procedures.org.uk

I’m not sure I agree with this. It’s seems very ‘nanny state’.

 

[ShadowPuppet]

@porkypies, very true. Was not an observation on his life before or any thought a Christian might not commit certain acts, but much more his age at the time and that many turn to religion in prison. Plenty of teenagers are brought up in Christian families and aren’t sure what they believe, but decide for themselves in late teens/as a young adult. Obviously no qualifications as such are needed for any religion and one of my earliest memories are the bombings in Archway, Highgate and Crouch End, so I’ve never thought being a Christian didn’t mean not committing crime. Sorry if I didn’t explain myself clearly.

 

[Amaz0nia]

I don't see any reason why MG would have to have become a Christian in prison. He may have already been a Christian as a teenager having been born into a Christian family?
I'm not sure what the qualifications are for belonging to a particular religion, but it seems to me that all crimes are committed by all sides with forgiveness and second chances being the order of the day.

I dont think MG would have been forced to become christian in Prison, just it is very common in US prisons for inmates to turn to religion, is often used as a way to cope and repent. 20years is a long time in a state penitentiary & deep south US prisons are harsh, what do you do to kill time when in a cell for 22hrs a day..? I think they both probably found/met each other probably by chance or through some local church/group/meeting

 

[Rolypolyoly]

This document about concealed pregnancy is from Sussex Child Protection, but the general contents will probably be relevant throughout England. It's interesting as to what could be classed as a criminal offence and which situations would trigger SS intervention.

Sussex Safeguarding and Child Protection Policy and Procedures Resource

Sussex Safeguarding and Child Protection Policy and Procedures

sussexchildprotection.procedures.org.uk

I've not read the whole thing yet but WOW! And the wonder why people trust social services?.

'It is important to note that someone booking late, after 20 weeks, for maternity care is still considered to have concealed or denied a pregnancy even if they didn't know they were pregnant'

WHAT? How can you conceal something you didn't know about?!
And let's not get into the fact that this essentially goes against a woman's right to choose what happens with her own body!

 

[ShadowPuppet]

I think usually these guidelines re concealed births etc are in place to enable SS to act and put support in place for those who need it. Very often if it’s a very straightforward reason, these things are explained by the parents and no more is done. I know a few people who didn’t realise they were pregnant or were a bit late booking, but no one was concerned. In other situations, people are concerned for other reasons (eg. Suspected domestic abuse) and so use these guidelines to escalate the situation to support services. A bit like the guidance to schools on children with low attendance - if you’re an involved parent who’s explained why and provided medical evidence, the school can explain to the attendance officer and it doesn’t get followed up. However, if the child also presents with concerning behaviour or says concerning things, seems uncared for or parents (when they do come to school) are acting very unusually, then it gives the school the opportunity to follow it up.

I’m not saying I agree with all of it, but it’s important to be aware that just because guidance is there for specific reasons doesn’t mean it’s followed through to the end in all situations when there aren’t any other concerning factors. The mum might be asked a few questions, but they’re highly unlikely to have more than that.

 

[Cardgame]

I’m not sure I agree with this. It’s seems very ‘nanny state’.

It seems to lay out some pretty specific reasons why concealing a pregnancy would be a real cause for concern.

There are obviously some very vulnerable people out there who have some troubled reasons for concealing or denying pregnancy.

Sad reading.

 

[Cherwell]

And let's not get into the fact that this essentially goes against a woman's right to choose what happens with her own body!

Shouldn't you say "a person's right to choose what happens with their own body"?

 

[Cardgame]

I think usually these guidelines re concealed births etc are in place to enable SS to act and put support in place for those who need it. Very often if it’s a very straightforward reason, these things are explained by the parents and no more is done. I know a few people who didn’t realise they were pregnant or were a bit late booking, but no one was concerned. In other situations, people are concerned for other reasons (eg. Suspected domestic abuse) and so use these guidelines to escalate the situation to support services. A bit like the guidance to schools on children with low attendance - if you’re an involved parent who’s explained why and provided medical evidence, the school can explain to the attendance officer and it doesn’t get followed up. However, if the child also presents with concerning behaviour or says concerning things, seems uncared for or parents (when they do come to school) are acting very unusually, then it gives the school the opportunity to follow it up.

I’m not saying I agree with all of it, but it’s important to be aware that just because guidance is there for specific reasons doesn’t mean it’s followed through to the end in all situations when there aren’t any other concerning factors. The mum might be asked a few questions, but they’re highly unlikely to have more than that.

I agree with this 100% and in a way it's what is so complex about this story.

There are regulations, and there is the system. And within the system there are individuals who are in charge of implementing the system. And they are using their own judgment and experience as well as being guided by the regulations.

Someone within that system has identified CM and MG as high risk parents, to the extent that they had four children removed.

But we don't know who, or why, or any of that history apart from a couple of strange stories about pretending to be travellers and refusing covid tests.

 

[Cardgame]

I've not read the whole thing yet but WOW! And the wonder why people trust social services?.

'It is important to note that someone booking late, after 20 weeks, for maternity care is still considered to have concealed or denied a pregnancy even if they didn't know they were pregnant'

WHAT? How can you conceal something you didn't know about?!
And let's not get into the fact that this essentially goes against a woman's right to choose what happens with her own body!

I would read the whole thing, it definitely qualifies that later on in a reassuring way.

In a way, it's probably also tied to the fact that you *can* choose to have a termination up for 24 weeks, so if you are in denial about the pregnancy - because you really don't want it - then someone needs to intervene fast!

 

[Lucy6226]

I've not read the whole thing yet but WOW! And the wonder why people trust social services?.

'It is important to note that someone booking late, after 20 weeks, for maternity care is still considered to have concealed or denied a pregnancy even if they didn't know they were pregnant'

WHAT? How can you conceal something you didn't know about?!
And let's not get into the fact that this essentially goes against a woman's right to choose what happens with her own body!

It is listing reasons why Social Services may be referred to in order to complete a prebirth assessment. Very often these assessments are completed with no issues raised and the case is closed. However, sometimes the assessment highlights a concern or an opportunity for further support for the parent/s. Surely it's better to offer an assessment and highlight any needs then not to do one at all. Especially in cases like this where the parents have already had children removed.

Section 17 child in need plan is voluntary and the parents can withdraw at any time. If there are serious concerns this might trigger an initial child protection conference with all professionals involved with the family to discuss if the child needs to be placed on a child protection plan.

 

[Telltale]

The photos arnt being leaked-theyve been shown to the jury and released to the media/public domain..im not getting all this leaked business…?
MG had no passport and hadnt even applied for one, and for those who say its easy for a black male to just travel on a fake passport is talking nonsense. Maybe they could have taken the ferry to northern ireland but thats about it without relevant ID etc.

It was way way back in the original threads from last year, but I remember some talk of Gordon possibly not being allowed to travel/live outside of the UK. Either while on the SOR or due to (maybe) probation. Since he got 40yrs, but was released & deported after 20 in 2010.

I don't know if any ongoing bail conditions or SOR restrictions were ever substantiated, but it might explain why they didn't just leave while she was pregnant. Her trust could have comfortably supported their life abroad, out of reach of social services. However perhaps they were too co-dependent to consider it if it meant physically splitting up because Gordon either couldn't leave the UK or qualify for a visa (without violating probation.)

Or at least, the risk wasn't worth it until things went tiits-up and they were front page news. Though even then, they headed for a port with no plan, passports or connections, gave up pretty quickly and tried to hide in-country.

Pure speculation. Gordon might have had no travel restrictions at all, but if he did, it would put some logic behind their decision to stay in the UK when they had the means to easily live abroad.

 

[Telltale]

I dont think MG would have been forced to become christian in Prison, just it is very common in US prisons for inmates to turn to religion, is often used as a way to cope and repent. 20years is a long time in a state penitentiary & deep south US prisons are harsh, what do you do to kill time when in a cell for 22hrs a day..? I think they both probably found/met each other probably by chance or through some local church/group/meeting

I seem to remember they met at some churchy meet and greet. Though I don't know if either were members of said congregation or it was more of a mixer/ recruitment/ support group.

This was another thing from the depths of last year's reporting. So I'm gonna stick a IMO on here and come back and edit it if I find the source for that - I am pretty sure it was reported in MSM.

Edit: I can't find a MSM source that actually details how they met - I might be misremembering how she came into contact with the Nigerian cult in 2010. Or possibly it was an unsubstantiated detail posted early on by someone claiming personal knowledge. Can't corroborate rn, take with handful of salt.

 

[rightsaidfred]

I think usually these guidelines re concealed births etc are in place to enable SS to act and put support in place for those who need it. Very often if it’s a very straightforward reason, these things are explained by the parents and no more is done. I know a few people who didn’t realise they were pregnant or were a bit late booking, but no one was concerned. In other situations, people are concerned for other reasons (eg. Suspected domestic abuse) and so use these guidelines to escalate the situation to support services. A bit like the guidance to schools on children with low attendance - if you’re an involved parent who’s explained why and provided medical evidence, the school can explain to the attendance officer and it doesn’t get followed up. However, if the child also presents with concerning behaviour or says concerning things, seems uncared for or parents (when they do come to school) are acting very unusually, then it gives the school the opportunity to follow it up.

I’m not saying I agree with all of it, but it’s important to be aware that just because guidance is there for specific reasons doesn’t mean it’s followed through to the end in all situations when there aren’t any other concerning factors. The mum might be asked a few questions, but they’re highly unlikely to have more than that.

I agree. I knew a 16yo girl who had a cryptic pregnancy and genuinely didn't realise she was pregnant until about 3 weeks before she gave birth. She was unwell with another condition and all the other symptoms were put down to that. She was flat stomached throughout, achieving well at school, studying for her A Levels etc etc.

I seem to remember that she briefly had SS involvement on account of her age, but there were no real concerns and she kept her child.

Concealed / denied pregnancy does tend to indicate that there are bigger problems; people with good mental health and a normal home life don't conceal or deny a pregnancy.

 

[Kye Zeeb]

I’m not sure I agree with this. It’s seems very ‘nanny state’.

It does show how what (some may consider) something relatively minor could quickly escalate with SS into repeated, major intervention.
*Edited to change "can" to "could"
JMO