UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #6

[rockthecasbah]

@wowiezowie Just listened to some the The Trial podcast and, in her interview, it seems she had she had no bruising or signs of DV and that’s why she doesn’t understand the window fall causing removal (except we are aware its highly unlikely to have just been the fall, as none of the evidence so far suggests that).

Also no physical signs doesn't mean there wasn't DV

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Perhaps they didn’t have any slings in stock at that particular store. I’ve just looked on the Argos website with a location of ‘London’ and most are order today, collect tomorrow. Perhaps they had to make do with available stock?

Possibly, but Argos is closed now so it would be collect tomorrow. Its a fair point though.

 

[Nikynoo]

Possibly, but Argos is closed now so it would be collect tomorrow. Its a fair point though.

Good point. I’ll check again tomorrow during opening hours.

 

[Alyce]

Mr Gordon initially refused to answer the police's questions, saying that he wanted to give his testimony in front of a jury.
But on hearing that Ms Marten had told officers what had happened to the child, and then consulting with his lawyer, he started answering questions.

He said Ms Marten was suffering from a "post-traumatic thing"

He said the couple loved the baby and that it was "sad that it happened like that", adding:
"but I think… it's just one of those things.

Mark Gordon says Constance Marten would 'never harm a child'

Mark Gordon told detectives his partner was 'an excellent mother' who wanted to have the baby.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Twittens]

Perhaps they didn’t have any slings in stock at that particular store. I’ve just looked on the Argos website with a location of ‘London’ and most are order today, collect tomorrow. Perhaps they had to make do with available stock?

The gigantic red scarf that CM was wearing in Harwich and London could easily have been fashioned into a safe and practical baby carrier for a newborn, which would have kept Baby V warmer and left CM with her hands free. CM has travelled and must have seen children carried that way, even if it's not entirely standard in the UK.

I think all the footage of the lack of safety and comfort in which Baby V was moved around makes it clear that the pair of them were either clueless or careless about how to look after a tiny child, which, to put it mildly, is very compatible with the fact that social services saw fit to remove four previous children, even if we don't know the precise details of why.

I guess the verdicts we can expect depend on which of the two the jury believes it is.

jmoo

 

[Nikynoo]

The gigantic red scarf that CM was wearing in Harwich and London could easily have been fashioned into a safe and practical baby carrier for a newborn, which would have kept Baby V warmer and left CM with her hands free. CM has travelled and must have seen children carried that way, even if it's not entirely standard in the UK.

I think all the footage of the lack of safety and comfort in which Baby V was moved around makes it clear that the pair of them were either clueless or careless about how to look after a tiny child, which, to put it mildly, is very compatible with the fact that social services saw fit to remove four previous children, even if we don't know the precise details of why.

I guess the verdicts we can expect depend on which of the two the jury believes it is.

jmoo

Yes, I agree a sling or similar could have been made of of the scarf/wrap. It would have made carrying her easier too as well as keeping her warm.

 

[ShadowPuppet]

Perhaps they didn’t have any slings in stock at that particular store. I’ve just looked on the Argos website with a location of ‘London’ and most are order today, collect tomorrow. Perhaps they had to make do with available stock?

It’s possible, although I’d have thought less so in London than most other areas - especially as the local kids shops in that part of London are independent ones iirc (the kind with a range but not where you could buy everything). The nearest chain store baby shops, I think, would be mothercare (13 min drive or 1h walk) and maybe babies r us a way away on old Kent road (31 min drive or 3h walk) if that’s still there, so plenty of people probably use the Argos as a more local option. I’d be surprised if Argos didn’t have a single (age appropriate) suitable buggy and coat in stock. You wouldn’t be able to be choosy, but you could be age appropriate. Just seems odd that they got no real sleeping items for Victoria either. Some prams are able to be slept in like a bassinet. Surely Argos would have had something out of a list of appropriate buggy, carrier, baby sleeping bag, crib mattress (the Moses basket size ones), warm blankets etc?

I popped in a year ago to get a buggy for while I was staying at my parents (didn’t preorder) and not all were in stock, but there were some in each age range available on the day in store (the one I went to was quite small and not in London).

Equally, they could have got the taxi to take them to an outdoor store like snow and rock or trespass instead and got really warm layers for all of them, a good tent and proper sleeping bags. I suppose though, if what they’re saying is correct, perhaps they simply didn’t think they’d be outside that long. Or perhaps it’s not how they think, I can imagine with fear, exhaustion and potentially generally being chaotic, it could easily not occur to them at all.

I’d be interested to know if anyone attended their wedding in Peru or whether it was just them.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

Following up on my post on the previous thread, Handfasting is not a legal marriage in the UK, yet people still do it for religious purposes. In Wicca, handfasting is two-fold, A couple perform the ceremony and a year later if they want to be together still, it is performed again. The first ceremony and the year following are supposed to be like a buffer period, I guess, to make sure you still want to be together. Regardless, I have a cousin and a friend who both had handfasting ceremonies but had to get married in a registry office to marry in the UK legally.
I guess the point I am getting to is if they did have a handfasting or something similar, to them, they ARE married, even if it is not official. They would still be common law legally, anyway.

 

[BaronessWombat]

There will definitely be more than to the window thing. Anecdotally, in my experience, parents with children undergoing care proceedings will fixate on one small issue, in a long list of issues, and tell the world that's why their kids were taken away. When actually it's a just small part of a much bigger pattern of neglect/abuse, and sounds bonkers on it's own with no context. Sometimes it's denial. Sometimes it's the only thing on the paperwork that they understand. JMO.

 

[Cardgame]

What if the unicorn sleeping bag was for CM and the blue sleeping bag was for "Daddy Bear"?

 

[Telltale]

Mr Gordon initially refused to answer the police's questions, saying that he wanted to give his testimony in front of a jury.
But on hearing that Ms Marten had told officers what had happened to the child, and then consulting with his lawyer, he started answering questions.

He said Ms Marten was suffering from a "post-traumatic thing"

He said the couple loved the baby and that it was "sad that it happened like that", adding:
"but I think… it's just one of those things.

Mark Gordon says Constance Marten would 'never harm a child'

Mark Gordon told detectives his partner was 'an excellent mother' who wanted to have the baby.

www.bbc.co.uk

<modsnip - circumventing the profanity filter, namecalling> Had you been any kind of father she wouldn't have been 'just one of those things.' She'd have been warm and safe and alive.
Prick.

There will definitely be more than to the window thing. Anecdotally, in my experience, parents with children undergoing care proceedings will fixate on one small issue, in a long list of issues, and tell the world that's why their kids were taken away. When actually it's a just small part of a much bigger pattern of neglect/abuse, and sounds bonkers on it's own with no context. Sometimes it's denial. Sometimes it's the only thing on the paperwork that they understand. JMO.

This 100%. I remember a woman who would tell anyone who'd listen that the government had taken her kids because of noise complaints...

Which, yes technically was why police turned up. Did leave out the small detail that it was the noise of her drunkenly beating her toddlers that neighbours were complaining about.

 

[InstantCoffee]

Court doesn't start until 2pm today... and a new ep of The Trial podcast went up last night.

This is just a tiny thing - not of an consequence, but noted on The Trial podcast that when she was apprehended CM said her name was 'Arabella' to the police. I just thought it was so indicative of both her privilege and disconnect from society at large that she would go for a name like that!

 

[Henrymoggington]

Court doesn't start until 2pm today... and a new ep of The Trial podcast went up last night.

This is just a tiny thing - not of a consequence, but noted on The Trial podcast that when she was apprehended CM said her name was 'Arabella' to the police. I just thought it was so indicative of both her privilege and disconnect from society at large that she would go for a name like that!

Was there a reason given for the 2pm start today?

 

[InstantCoffee]

Was there a reason given for the 2pm start today?

It was stated on The Argus Live feed in their last post yesterday. Yet, now looking at The Old Bailey listings it says 10am - so who knows... think I'd trust the Old Bailey over The Argus!

 

[rightsaidfred]

I guess the point I am getting to is if they did have a handfasting or something similar, to them, they ARE married, even if it is not official. They would still be common law legally, anyway.

There's no such thing as a common law marriage in UK law.

Religious marriages, which can be anything from a Wiccan handfasting to an Islamic nikkah, are legally not a marriage. You have to back them up with a registry office marriage. Different rules apply to church weddings.

You're either cohabiting or you're legally married, there's no halfway house from a legal point of view!

 

[Alyce]

There's no such thing as a common law marriage in UK law.

Religious marriages, which can be anything from a Wiccan handfasting to an Islamic nikkah, are legally not a marriage. You have to back them up with a registry office marriage. Different rules apply to church weddings.

You're either cohabiting or you're legally married, there's no halfway house from a legal point of view!

Yep, indeed. Common misconception by many - until the couple split and then they find out !

 

[Alyce]

Central Criminal Court​	5​	T20237104​	constance marten mark alton gordon​
Details: Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 00:00 - 10:28

www.thelawpages.com

 

[Alyce]

Was there a reason given for the 2pm start today?

Judge does have another hearing at midday in Court 5, so that could be the reason it was put back

 

[Twittens]

There's no such thing as a common law marriage in UK law.

Religious marriages, which can be anything from a Wiccan handfasting to an Islamic nikkah, are legally not a marriage. You have to back them up with a registry office marriage. Different rules apply to church weddings.

You're either cohabiting or you're legally married, there's no halfway house from a legal point of view!

Jewish and Quaker marriages are also legally recognised in the UK.

Married, but not married - Is my religious marriage recognised in the UK? - ORJ Law

 

[wowiezowie]

There will definitely be more than to the window thing. Anecdotally, in my experience, parents with children undergoing care proceedings will fixate on one small issue, in a long list of issues, and tell the world that's why their kids were taken away. When actually it's a just small part of a much bigger pattern of neglect/abuse, and sounds bonkers on it's own with no context. Sometimes it's denial. Sometimes it's the only thing on the paperwork that they understand. JMO.

Wasn't CM warned previously by SS about falling asleep with a newborn baby? I'm sure I've read that somewhere. I don't think either of them had the first idea about being a parent but just kept pumping out kids for some bizarre self entitled reason.