UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #6

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  • #201
Yes, she would know but is unlikely to know the actual address (letters etc through SS) unless continued contact was deemed appropriate which is still less usual in UK for birth parents (but common for siblings).

Essentially, once all the support had been put in and there just wasn’t progress and improvement in the parenting or serious risk continued and the children were permanently removed from the family, different routes would have been explored for the children. This would involve continued assessment of the children’s own needs, kinship care and adoption. Sometimes kinship carers are assessed and found not to be able to provide the support needed, sometimes they realise themselves they don’t have the skills required to help a child through trauma and developmental delay or sometimes there’s lots of thinking to do around physical health issues etc if grandparents. SS want the child to have a permanent home where possible as they’ve already been through so much, so if there are questions around how they’d manage long term (eg. Progressive illnesses) this is often discussed too. However, kinship care has a different slightly lighter assessment to adoption (which is very, very in-depth) as remaining with functioning able-to-parent family is seen as less traumatic in general in most cases.

Siblings might be assessed as needing separate homes. This tends to happen due to the needs of the child, but the age can be an impacting factor (eg. Few adoptive parents would take on a 9yo and a 2yo). SS work incredibly hard to avoid this separation, but it becomes harder when less parents are willing to be matched with an older child. Occasionally, children have long term foster care plans together instead and the bond between siblings is a consideration in this. It’s less important in this case as the children were all young, but they may have been assessed as having needs that meant placing them together wasn’t possible.

The adoption process also now has foster to adopt placements and concurrency, which tend to occur for younger children. Both are aimed at reducing the number of moves for young children. Foster to adopt is where the council has decided the best plan for the child is to be adopted, but it hasn’t been decided by a court yet. Concurrency is where neither the council nor the court has decided whether adoption is the best plan for the child yet. In both cases, a number of children return to their birth family, so it’s a very child-centred decision for potential adoptive parents to make, as they may care for and bond with children, but ultimately not become their parents. In these processes, the potential adopters must carry out the same things a normal foster carer would do, including taking the child to birth parent contact sessions.

Lots of parents claim their family are ‘in league’ with SS, but (in most cases) there have to be actual concerns for a child to be removed. Some things can be complex and a child might be placed in Care while an assessment is done, but usually if there are no other concerns and the person reporting has accused a family of things that make no sense, timelines don’t add up and no one else has other concerns, the child won’t be placed in care. Occasionally birth parents succeed in pulling wool - like with little Star Hobson.

IMO, when looking at the normal process, either CM (and potentially MG’s) parents realised they didn’t have the ability to parent children who’d experienced trauma and delay for whatever reason (age and health etc) or that they weren’t found suitable for some reason (doesn’t have to be a huge emotional reason, could be as simple as large amounts of travel that they couldn’t give up for work/charity work, which doesn’t suit a traumatised child or their progressing health due to age etc). All of this would be considered in the context of each child and the children as a unit to find what the court and SS thought best outcome.

CM and MG are likely to have had contact either at a contact centre or (less common) at the foster carer’s home throughout the fostering process. Once adoption was seen to be the best plan by the court, they would have gradually reduced contact and had a final session together to say goodbye. For the child, the introductory period to the adoptive parents (if matched) then begins. So, CM would know her children were in foster care and probably know their carer/s, but would be likely to not know the address and meet in a contact centre in the area. She’d be aware of how the child was progressing and kept up to date until the adoption process started to move forwards.

If they were placed in kinship care placements, there are usually restrictions on when birth parents can see the children (can also be a reason for not being suitable in some cases) and she would be fully aware this was where her children were placed. Even in adoption, birth parents are usually told who is adopting, even if they are only given indirect contact via SS and not the adopters address (letters/emails once a year etc).
Thank you for such a comprehensive explanation of the process.

I find myself repeatedly hoping that those beautiful children on CM's facebook page were at least able to stay together, since they were so close in age and old enough to have bonded, but what you say makes it clear that might not actually be the best arrangement for them, which hadn't occurred to me.

Wherever they are, I really hope they're flourishing.
 
  • #202
Thank you for such a comprehensive explanation of the process.

I find myself repeatedly hoping that those beautiful children on CM's facebook page were at least able to stay together, since they were so close in age and old enough to have bonded, but what you say makes it clear that might not actually be the best arrangement for them, which hadn't occurred to me.

Wherever they are, I really hope they're flourishing.
Also we have to remember that there are reporting restrictions around details of children in care, and this will apply to anything CM or MG (or anyone else) say in court or as part of the evidence presented in court, so whatever she does say is unlikely to be published in the press.
 
  • #203
Anyone seen an Argus report for today?
 
  • #204
  • #205
Anyone seen an Argus report for today?

Nothing - reporter elsewhere it seems ( Smccat's post )

Update here from Law Pages, seems more stop than start and now at lunch



www.thelawpages.com

5​
T20237104​
constance marten
mark alton gordon​
Details:Trial (Part Heard) - Resume - 11:44
Trial (Part Heard) - No Event - 12:05
Trial (Part Heard) - No Event - 12:22
Trial (Part Heard) - Witness evidence concluded - 12:33
Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 00:00 - 12:39
Trial (Part Heard) - Resume - 12:52
Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 14:05 - 13:06
 
  • #206
On Tuesday, a series of agreed facts were read in court detailing Marten’s history with social services and advice she was given about another baby, referred to as Child FF.


Care professionals explained to Marten the risks of falling asleep with the baby on her, including suffocation, overheating and positional asphyxia.


It was explained: “Babies are more delicate and vulnerable and their airways can easily become blocked when placed in certain positions, especially if they are sleeping on an adult’s chest.


“This increases the risk of sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) or accidental suffocation.”

Marten was warned that positional asphyxia could be “extremely dangerous”, the court was told.


The defendant promised to abide by the advice and not cause any harm to the baby.


Marten was told of the “crucial importance to place (Child FF) in the Moses basket for sleep, rather than allowing herself to doze off with the baby on her chest”.


These concerns were raised a second time, with a social worker noting: “Critical dangers of falling asleep with a baby on one’s chest were firmly raised to Constance who once again stated she understood the risk and would take this on board.”


A social worker explained to Gordon there were concerns about the lack of preparation for Child FF’s birth.


Gordon appeared to accept some concerns but maintained that everyone had the right to choose how they live and they should not be penalised for having a lifestyle that was not “mainstream”.





 
  • #207
Previously, concerns had been raised when Marten presented at a hospital six months pregnant having sought no NHS antenatal care.

At the time, she said that she and Gordon had been living in a campervan.

Months later, social services issued a national hospital alert to locate the couple.

When Marten went into labour with Child FF, she and Gordon gave false names at hospital, the court was told.

She claimed she had travelled to “avoid her family”, spoke with a “fake Irish accent” and claimed to be from the travelling community.

After their real identities were established, Marten told social workers they had been living in a campervan after being evicted from a flat.

A care professional said social services “had a number of concerns, including falsifying of names and that Ms Marten and Mr Gordon had been living in a tent”.

Marten said it had been her idea, that she would engage with care professionals and her child was her priority.

However, she was informed: “Some babygrows and nappies is simply not enough for a newborn baby to be safe.”

Marten was advised to reach out to her family and try to get housing but “due to her homelessness and inadequate preparations for a baby, a court order would be sought if she were unable to establish a suitable home for herself and (Child FF)”.

Social workers found Marten’s tent was “festival-style” and unsuitable for sleeping in during cold weather.

After visiting the tent, a social worker spoke to Marten about the “unsuitability and discomfort” of their situation.

The social worker stated: “I explained to her that it was winter, the conditions were freezing and the cramped space would be wholly inappropriate for a baby to live in.”

Marten accepted it was “challenging” but made clear that she and Gordon had an “alternative lifestyle” and not to judge her for it.

The social worker explained her “primary concern” was the wellbeing of Child FF and it was their role to assess the risk.

The court heard an interim care order was made for Child FF who was placed in temporary mother and baby placements with Marten.





 

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  • #208
Confirmation that doing what they wanted to do was more important to them than the safety and wellbeing of their child(ren).
 
  • #209
Giving evidence by video link, paediatrician Dr Gaurav Atreja said keeping a newborn baby in a tent in temperatures of between 5 to 10 degrees Celsius “can be fatal”.

Prosecutor Tom Little KC asked what the risks were to a baby placed inside a jacket with the parent sitting down.

Dr Atreja said: “If mother goes to sleep she can bend over the baby and the baby can be smothered.”



 
  • #210
What I find interesting about the evidence presented in court today is that it seems almost uniquely selected to demonstrate specifically CM was warned about the danger she was posing to her child by sleeping in a tent/letting a baby fall asleep on her and go to sleep herself in such a situation. And these dangers were grimly borne out in real life. Almost like CM has the attitude that she knew better and that as a mother she perhaps felt she knew what was best for her child. And yet, in this exact scenario, the worst case of what we was warned about actually happened. Is that not therefore a demonstrable case of gross negligence - being warned about the specific danger and doing it anyway? MOO.

I wonder whether all the legal matters might be relating to other advice they may or may not have received about their other children. But that this highly relevant advice provided by SS can be admitted as evidence as it tracks with the circumstances they then found themselves in and which led to the tragic death of Victoria.

(It also potentially undermines any lingering concern that somehow SS were responsible for hounding the family to this tragedy - by demonstrating that sleeping outdoors in an unsuitable tent was not and extreme response to the situation they found themselves in but was potentially normal behaviour that they had form for!!)

All MOO.
 
  • #211
Has the person who says they advised her against doing exactly or almost exactly what she herself says she later did taken the witness stand, so that the jury can get a view of their evidence and test it if they wish?

One question the defence, jury, or judge might wish to ask the person is why they gave that exact advice at that time. Not regarding the tent; the position of baby and falling asleep bit.

It would be quite interesting to know how she got identified at the hospital after the national hospital alert too. I've no idea what happened, but you'd have thought someone who changed her accent might have thought to change her hair colour for example. Was it just a photograph? Could have been a distinguishing physical characteristic I suppose, if not DNA - or a narrowing down using photographs, age, height, eye colour, eyebrow character*, voice timbre*, ethnicity, ethnicity of baby, followed by checking with someone who knew her.

* Police log these when they have arrested someone.
 
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  • #212
It's striking to me that CM's story exactly mirrors previous warnings. Like a script.

I don't believe that's how Victoria died.
 
  • #213
Giving evidence by video link, paediatrician Dr Gaurav Atreja said keeping a newborn baby in a tent in temperatures of between 5 to 10 degrees Celsius “can be fatal”.

Prosecutor Tom Little KC asked what the risks were to a baby placed inside a jacket with the parent sitting down.

Dr Atreja said: “If mother goes to sleep she can bend over the baby and the baby can be smothered.”



Mentions DV in 2019. Sounds like reasons for removal were that and no effort to provide safe living situation (imo). Probably among other things
 
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  • #214
It's striking to me that CM's story exactly mirrors previous warnings. Like a script.

I don't believe that's how Victoria died.
This did occur to me as well.

But even if she is lying and Victoria died in a different way, what she has essentially confessed to is gross negligence because she was specifically warned against the dangers to an infant of doing that. MOO.
 
  • #215
It's not really a great amount of money to be fair, especially if they had no other monthly income.
I disagree. Its more than a lot of people earn in a month. Plenty enough to rent or pay a mortgage etc.
 
  • #216
What the heck have they spent all that money on ?
What the heck have they spent all that money on ?
It seems ridiculous. They were living in a tent back in 2017 when first baby was born .Have also been evicted from properties for rent arrears. All they had to do was provide a decent home for their kids to prevent them being taken away !! People manage this on far less money. Utter madness
 
  • #217
£2500 pcm isn't a lot to live on with 4 kids. I was paying £700 pcm for a room in a shared house in Hackney in 2009.
Dont think they ever had all four kids living with them though' I am assuming kids were removed before the final court order as there is an article saying about visits at a contact centre?
 
  • #218
I would imagine that these specific testimonies and pieces of evidence have been deliberately selected in order to prove the case that CM knew better than to do exactly what she did. There's nothing suspicious about this, the prosecution needs to present pertinent facts in line with this baby's tragic death and not 'everything that has ever been said to CM about child rearing by welfare agencies'.

JMO MOO
 
  • #219
Just copying in an updated section I didnt see earlier.....


The couple went on to have three more children and “interacted well” with them during supervised contact sessions.

But their attendance was “inconsistent”, leaving the children distressed and unsettled, the court heard.

One of the children became quiet and withdrawn, telling staff: “Mummy and daddy cancelled again.”

The child was described as “inconsolable” when the parents failed to turn up at the contact centre.

Jurors heard of an incident of domestic violence in 2019 and a judge found a “risk of harm to the children by being exposed to physical violence between the parents”.

All four children were made subject to care and placement orders in January 2022.




 
  • #220
Yes I understand it's a complexly different ball game in private housing but having said that no one was forcing the couple to set up home in those expensive areas ? Or to keep a cat or have a car for that matter.
What's that saying about cutting your cloth according to your means,but surely not to descend to living in a tent .
If they had discarded friends ,again no reason to hold them there .
But that's all in the past and perhaps it never occurred to them.
Absolutely. There was no need for them to live in London ,no work ties etc. However they had moved to Wales when first baby was born. Why did they not rent a property there instead of living in a tent. Would be more affordable than London.
What exactly did they that monthly allowance on to be homeless in a tent!!
 
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