UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #6

[DavidAT]

He says "Can I have my food please?" and then says "Can I have some food please?" in a weaker voice. The Miami accent may make it sound a little different.

Thanks. You are right!
My ear isn't good for these things.

 

[DavidAT]

DBM

 

[Sherlockhames]

Today’s Argus live feed is up

Updates as trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon continues

Live updates as the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon.

www.theargus.co.uk

 

[Smccat]

11:13am

Evidence from doctor regarding placenta age​

John Femi-Ola, defending Gordon, has called Dr Srinivas Annavarapu, a consultant histopathologist at Alder Hey Children's Hospital in Liverpool.

 

[Smccat]

For those like me who didn't know what that was...

Histopathologists study organs, tissues, cells and genetics to help provide a diagnosis.

 

[Cardgame]

For those like me who didn't know what that was...

Histopathologists study organs, tissues, cells and genetics to help provide a diagnosis.

Where's he going with this?

 

[Nikynoo]

Where's he going with this?

trying to establish an approximate birth date?

 

[Doughy]

Does it actually change anything if she was 3 days old or 3 months old

 

[DavidAT]

Updates as trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon continues

Live updates as the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon.

www.theargus.co.uk

"Dr Annavarapu told the court: "I have assessed the degree of decomposition in this placenta to see which time point it fits better - one to two days or two to three weeks."

Talk about inductive logic Better to tell the jury e.g. p>0.99 the placenta was delivered before date X and p>0.99 it was delivered after date Y. Although to be fair he may have done this.

That packing box in the car may have been for a fridge for the placenta. I don't know whether there is any evidence to suggest it was or wasn't kept in a fridge at any time.

Is the crown bothering to cross-examine Annavarapu?

It's going to be interesting to see whether the prosecution in their closing speech say that in the crown's submission even if everything both defendants have said either in interviews or in court is true, they're still guilty on all charges including manslaughter.

Do we know whether CM is of good character (in the courtroom sense - i.e. no criminal convictions)?

 

[Smccat]

Born before Christmas eve?

 

[Obergine]

They can argue she was born under safe circumstances - at the Northumberland cottage - if older. Also that she was more robust to withstand cold, I imagine. Begs the question why anyone would carry a placenta around for two weeks! It would have stunk.

 

[DavidAT]

Does it actually change anything if she was 3 days old or 3 months old

I assume at least one of the parties says it does, and that the only reason it's not clear what this goes to is that the reporting hasn't been great. We know the judge hasn't kicked this evidence out as irrelevant.

If the prosecution are going to suggest the defendants are lying, and then evidence is brought that suggests they probably aren't, and then the prosecution says well actually it doesn't matter whether they're lying or not, because there's so much evidence that shows they're guilty even if they're telling the truth......well...let's just say that's not an ideal course of courtroom events from the prosecution POV.

 

[Sherlockhames]

Does it actually change anything if she was 3 days old or 3 months old

I guess the prosecution are trying to allege that their topsy turvy plans were baked in from the start and that even if there had been no national alerts/press reports another pair that they were on a path to an unstable parenting journey with their daughter.

MG and CM maintain CM gave birth in the warm/suitable/nurturing surroundings of an airbnb and that they would have continued on this path had it not been for SS/National alerts etc.

The police/SS/prosecution are trying to show that actually their modus operandi as parents was this completely unsuitable alternative lifestyle. If she gave birth on the run, and had a history of camping out with a baby and actually this was perhaps part of the plan all along then the gross negligence piece stands up a bit better. And if CM had her baby in a random hotel room and then they continued on the run(with their “not stopping for more than 3 days in one place”) then regardless of the car fire/police SS alerts etc they could very well have ended up in same situation anyway, planning to live in the car/camp etc - which is a wholly unsuitable environment for a newborn baby.

Also, I think the prosecution are alleging they can’t believe what CM and MG say about anything. And therefore not to believe them about the circumstances of the death of Victoria.

 

[Obergine]

So if it was 1-2 days old it would have cooked like liver but because it was older it was more like gravy . Sorry to be graphic but really.... what on earth. Vomit.

 

[DavidAT]

They can argue she was born under safe circumstances - at the Northumberland cottage - if older. Also that she was more robust to withstand cold, I imagine. Begs the question why anyone would carry a placenta around for two weeks! It would have stunk.

Not if it was kept in a fridge. (See the packing box.) They could have had a 12V to 230V converter in the car, or just rushed to plug it into the wall when they got to each place they were staying.

Edit: apparently they need a freezer, not just a fridge, after 3-4 days.

Some people plant them, make tablets out of them, etc. After my son was born and his cord stump came off I mentioned to the health visitor that we might keep it, and she screwed her face up in disgust. (We didn't keep in the end. We just kept our son's wristband, which I'm guessing is what most people do. And the pregnancy test.)

 

[Nikynoo]

Does it actually change anything if she was 3 days old or 3 months old

Not to us, but to the prosecution case, possibly. My understanding is that the prosecution have built their case on the baby being born after the first vehicle broke down (because the breakdown man didnt see a baby) but before the second vehicle caught fire.
I do see your point here, can someone remind me why Victorias date of birth is relevant?

 

[DavidAT]

I guess the prosecution are trying to allege that their topsy turvy plans were baked in from the start and that even if there had been no national alerts/press reports another pair that they were on a path to an unstable parenting journey with their daughter.

MG and CM maintain CM gave birth in the warm/suitable/nurturing surroundings of an airbnb and that they would have continued on this path had it not been for SS/National alerts etc.

The police/SS/prosecution are trying to show that actually their modus operandi as parents was this completely unsuitable alternative lifestyle. If she gave birth on the run, and had a history of camping out with a baby and actually this was perhaps part of the plan all along then the gross negligence piece stands up a bit better. And if CM had her baby in a random hotel room and then they continued on the run(with their “not stopping for more than 3 days in one place”) then regardless of the car fire/police SS alerts etc they could very well have ended up in same situation anyway, planning to live in the car/camp etc - which is a wholly unsuitable environment for a newborn baby.

Also, I think the prosecution are alleging they can’t believe what CM and MG say about anything. And therefore not to believe them about the circumstances of the death of Victoria.

So their lifestyle is on trial? Or at least giving birth when having such a lifestyle? That sounds like an argument that runs "There was high risk, and it was no surprise what happened, given what you're like".

Also if the prosecution suggest "We can't believe anything you say", that's not a great case they've got there, IMO.

The big problem in the prosecution case IMO is they've got no direct evidence regarding the physical cause of death.

ETA: the crown is cross-examining Annavarapu casting doubt on the reliability of his evidence regarding dating, with reference to the placenta having been in the car when it was on fire.

 

[DavidAT]

Not to us, but to the prosecution case, possibly. My understanding is that the prosecution have built their case on the baby being born after the first vehicle broke down (because the breakdown man didnt see a baby) but before the second vehicle caught fire.
I do see your point here, can someone remind me why Victorias date of birth is relevant?

On 28 Dec when the first car broke down, the breakdown man says he didn't notice a baby, but did he notice a big pregnancy bump?

 

[rockthecasbah]

Not to us, but to the prosecution case, possibly. My understanding is that the prosecution have built their case on the baby being born after the first vehicle broke down (because the breakdown man didnt see a baby) but before the second vehicle caught fire.
I do see your point here, can someone remind me why Victorias date of birth is relevant?

Which gives a gap of 28th Dec to 4th Jan. Car towed to Leeds but no indication of where they were in between then and Lymm hotel.

 

[Nikynoo]

So their lifestyle is on trial? Or at least giving birth when having such a lifestyle? That sounds like an argument that runs "There was high risk, and it was no surprise what happened, given what you're like".

Also if the prosecution suggest "We can't believe anything you say", that's not a great case they've got there, IMO.

The big problem in the prosecution case IMO is they've got no direct evidence regarding the physical cause of death.

ETA: the crown is cross-examining Annavarapu casting doubt on the reliability of his evidence regarding dating, with reference to the placenta having been in the car when it was on fire.

If the placenta had had fire damage, I would imagine (or at least hope) that an 'expert' would be able to tell if said placenta had fire damage? It would have started to 'cook' (for want of a better word), not liquify.