UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #6

[Nikynoo]

On 28 Dec when the first car broke down, the breakdown man says he didn't notice a baby, but did he notice a big pregnancy bump?

Not that its been reported - mind you I was still big a week after giving birth with my third. The breakdown man did say it looked like the car was being lived in though.

 

[Sherlockhames]

Not that its been reported - mind you I was still big a week after giving birth with my third. The breakdown man did say it looked like the car was being lived in though.

Was there any evidence of soiled nappies etc left behind at the airbnb she said she gave birth in? I seem to remember the sheets had been laundered. Which means they could be telling the truth - and cleared all the evidence of a birth behind them so as to leave no trace?

 

[Alyce]

Where's he going with this?

Andreas Marnerides, a consultant in paediatric pathology, told jurors he could not say exactly how old Victoria was from her foot length and other parameters.
She could have been two, four or six weeks old, he said

Constance Marten baby 'could have died from cold or co-sleeping', court told

Fugitive aristocrat Constance Marten’s baby could have died from the cold or co-sleeping, a pathologist has said

www.theargus.co.uk

Based on the above my best guess would be that CM and MG want the baby to have been born as early as possible.
Born December 24 and died on January 8.
Therefore, she was only on the Downs for one night in the tent.

The Prosecution want to show that Victoria was born later - Dec 30/31/Jan 1/2 ? which would mean she did not die until at least January 13 - 16 ( assuming the same 2 week age of baby that C and M have used ) which would mean she was out on the Downs for a week or more.

 

[Smccat]

Can anyone tell me if I am making up that Constance said that the baby was born on Christmas eve at an address in Cumbria? I am looking all over for this reference to Cumbria and can't find it. <modsnip>
Probably irrelevant anyway but for my sanity, anyone?

 

[Nikynoo]

Was there any evidence of soiled nappies etc left behind at the airbnb she said she gave birth in? I seem to remember the sheets had been laundered. Which means they could be telling the truth - and cleared all the evidence of a birth behind them so as to leave no trace?

There was no mention of soiled nappies left at the airbnb. IIRC, nappies were first mentioned in the car fire. I have no idea whether there were any nappies in the car that broke down on 28th December. Does anyone recall what happened to that car? Did the police find and search it?

 

[Nikynoo]

Can anyone tell me if I am making up that Constance said that the baby was born on Christmas eve at an address in Cumbria? I am looking all over for this reference to Cumbria and can't find it. <modsnip>

Probably irrelevant anyway but for my sanity, anyone?

IIRC, her plan was to give birth in Cumbria. Let me check something. BRB

 

[Alyce]

Can anyone tell me if I am making up that Constance said that the baby was born on Christmas eve at an address in Cumbria? I am looking all over for this reference to Cumbria and can't find it. I did wonder what address at the time.
Probably irrelevant anyway but for my sanity, anyone?

Marten had booked her two-bed cottage on Booking.com on December 20, 2022, and asked to check-in that night.
The booking was for six nights and the total cost was £367.20.

Marten claimed to police she gave birth in the holiday cottage

On Marten's version of events the baby was born on December 24, 2022 ( quoted by Prosecution )

Aristocrat Constance Marten and her lover 'trashed holiday cottage'

The couple booked the holiday cottage in Northumbria on December 20, 2022 and asked to check in that night, its owner, Maria Richardson, told the Old Bailey.

www.dailymail.co.uk

the exact address has not been quoted

 

[Sherlockhames]

Andreas Marnerides, a consultant in paediatric pathology, told jurors he could not say exactly how old Victoria was from her foot length and other parameters.
She could have been two, four or six weeks old, he said

Constance Marten baby 'could have died from cold or co-sleeping', court told

Fugitive aristocrat Constance Marten’s baby could have died from the cold or co-sleeping, a pathologist has said

www.theargus.co.uk

Based on the above my best guess would be that CM and MG want the baby to have been born as early as possible.
Born December 24 and died on January 8.
Therefore, she was only on the Downs for one night in the tent.

The Prosecution want to show that Victoria was born later - Dec 30/31/Jan 1/2 ? which would mean she did not die until at least January 13 - 16 ( assuming the same 2 week age of baby that C and M have used ) which would mean she was out on the Downs for a week or more.

I think this might be getting to the heart of it - CM/MG saying they only stayed in a tent as a last resort but wasn’t part of their parenting plans. The death was an unforeseen an accident but they then wanted to stay in the run.

Prosecution trying to make out that actually this was how they felt it was as maybe appropriate to look after a baby, didn’t see anything wrong with it despite it being objectively a foolish way to look after a baby when they had access to other means. And that their poor/selfish decisions directly contributed to the death of their child - which was the precise reason SS/police were searching for them in the first place.

 

[Cardgame]

Can anyone tell me if I am making up that Constance said that the baby was born on Christmas eve at an address in Cumbria? I am looking all over for this reference to Cumbria and can't find it. I did wonder what address at the time.
Probably irrelevant anyway but for my sanity, anyone?

https://podcasts.musixmatch.com/podcast/the-trial-01gw40zm7r6hc08w7jepkajncm/episode/constance-marten-and-mark-gordon-the-body-in-the-shed-01hpsgnp58bc5d03wr9j8gf4e0

"So DC Garvey then asked her about the pregnancy. And she told him that she first realised she was pregnant in March 2022. She said Victoria was born on Christmas Eve in a house in Cumbria, where the couple had wanted to spend Christmas, she said."

 

[Cardgame]

12:51pm

Sleeping in a tent in winter 'poses obvious danger to child', court hears​

Joel Smith, prosecuting, is cross examining Dr Rafiq. He asked if the Dr would advise that a mother takes advantage of antenatal care on offer.
"That is correct," Dr Rafiq said.
Mr Smith gave Dr Rafiq a scenario of a mother living in a tent January with no access to heat and hot water.
"I would advise against it," Dr Rafiq said.
Mr Smith said: "Because it is dangerous isn’t it?"
"It makes the child more vulnerable," Dr Rafiq said.
Mr Smith said: "Because it poses obvious danger to the child?"
Dr Rafiq confirmed.


Doesn't feel *quite* like a trump card from the defence expert here.

 

[Smccat]

https://podcasts.musixmatch.com/podcast/the-trial-01gw40zm7r6hc08w7jepkajncm/episode/constance-marten-and-mark-gordon-the-body-in-the-shed-01hpsgnp58bc5d03wr9j8gf4e0

"So DC Garvey then asked her about the pregnancy. And she told him that she first realised she was pregnant in March 2022. She said Victoria was born on Christmas Eve in a house in Cumbria, where the couple had wanted to spend Christmas, she said."

Thanks for that Cardgame.

The timeline has 20-26th in the Airbnb in Northumberland.

As I say probably not relevant, just something about it...

It's probably that not so much has been made of that. What address/where etc. Seems nothing has been reported about the property/birth in Cumbria.

Anyway...

 

[Twittens]

Ah, this is all so bogus, because even if you believe that they were only forced to sleep in a tent as a last resort because of the manhunt hot on their heels and never intended to do it ordinarily, even though they had with a previous child, you would still have to ask why they didn't dress their child warmly, convey her suitably, and handle her with care, none of which happened if the kebab shop cctv and the lidl bag are anything to go by.

JMOO obviously

 

[JennieM]

12:51pm

Sleeping in a tent in winter 'poses obvious danger to child', court hears​

Joel Smith, prosecuting, is cross examining Dr Rafiq. He asked if the Dr would advise that a mother takes advantage of antenatal care on offer.
"That is correct," Dr Rafiq said.
Mr Smith gave Dr Rafiq a scenario of a mother living in a tent January with no access to heat and hot water.
"I would advise against it," Dr Rafiq said.
Mr Smith said: "Because it is dangerous isn’t it?"
"It makes the child more vulnerable," Dr Rafiq said.
Mr Smith said: "Because it poses obvious danger to the child?"
Dr Rafiq confirmed.


Doesn't feel *quite* like a trump card from the defence expert here.

It makes the baby more vulnerable or completely vulnerable?

Really, what are the odds that a baby would survive?

 

[EricAcaciaAvenue]

Ah, this is all so bogus, because even if you believe that they were only forced to sleep in a tent as a last resort because of the manhunt hot on their heels and never intended to do it ordinarily, even though they had with a previous child, you would still have to ask why they didn't dress their child warmly, convey her suitably, and handle her with care, none of which happened if the kebab shop cctv and the lidl bag are anything to go by.

JMOO obviously

And the premise is flawed in any event, because parents don't have a right to avoid a "manhunt" which in fact consists of the authorities trying to find them and take their child into care because they are unfit parents.

As discussed the other day, no expert is going to say that this was a good idea. But they may be able to say that the likelihood of this causing a child to die (as against the likelihood of the child dying for other causes) is not necessarily extremely high.

 

[GreekGal]

Can anyone tell me if I am making up that Constance said that the baby was born on Christmas eve at an address in Cumbria? I am looking all over for this reference to Cumbria and can't find it. <modsnip>
Probably irrelevant anyway but for my sanity, anyone?

Marten had booked her two-bed cottage on Booking.com on December 20, 2022, and asked to check-in that night.
The booking was for six nights and the total cost was £367.20.

Marten claimed to police she gave birth in the holiday cottage

On Marten's version of events the baby was born on December 24, 2022 ( quoted by Prosecution )

Aristocrat Constance Marten and her lover 'trashed holiday cottage'

The couple booked the holiday cottage in Northumbria on December 20, 2022 and asked to check in that night, its owner, Maria Richardson, told the Old Bailey.

www.dailymail.co.uk

the exact address has not been quoted

I do recall the town of Haltwhistle being mentioned which is in Northumberland but very close to Cumbria if that's any help.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Ah, this is all so bogus, because even if you believe that they were only forced to sleep in a tent as a last resort because of the manhunt hot on their heels and never intended to do it ordinarily, even though they had with a previous child, you would still have to ask why they didn't dress their child warmly, convey her suitably, and handle her with care, none of which happened if the kebab shop cctv and the lidl bag are anything to go by.

JMOO obviously

100% this. The baby died after having her birth concealed, being dragged from pillar to post and improperly cared for in a freezing cold and wet English winter, lacking proper clothing, a crib or pram, and no adequate shelter. We know she was alive during the stress of the car fire, we have seen she was stuffed inside a coat, manhandled in the kebab shop, plonked in an inappropriate pram that was then abandoned, forced to live in a thin and tiny tent that was also probably exceptionally cold and not storm proof without proper bedding. All the while her parents were on the run acting shady and refusing to do the right thing for her life. When she did die they stuffed her in a bag full of rubbish, claiming to try to preserve her when it seems more like they were evading detection of her body.

Wondering if the baby would have died sooner or later in different circumstances is indeed bogus on behalf of the prosecution or defence IMO, if that's what they're doing.

JMO MOO

 

[TLobo]

Thanks for that Cardgame.

The timeline has 20-26th in the Airbnb in Northumberland.

As I say probably not relevant, just something about it...

It's probably that not so much has been made of that. What address/where etc. Seems nothing has been reported about the property/birth in Cumbria.

Anyway...

Along the lines of whether or not the baby was born in the AirBnB - if she was indeed born there, how did they manage that timing? Was CM booking a place to stay while she was in active labor? Did it just happen to work out that way, like they booked the place and then she spontaneously went in to labor while there? Was that The Plan for the birth - and if not, what was?

It is so wild to me (also a mother of 5 little ones born in a slightly longer time frame than CM's babies [mine 2016-2023, hers 2017-2021]) that this woman has been pregnant nearly constantly and has given birth 5 times, with nothing to show for it besides criminal charges. And she does not appear to be devastated about it? MOO.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

And the premise is flawed in any event, because parents don't have a right to avoid a "manhunt" which in fact consists of the authorities trying to find them and take their child into care because they are unfit parents.

As discussed the other day, no expert is going to say that this was a good idea. But they may be able to say that the likelihood of this causing a child to die (as against the likelihood of the child dying for other causes) is not necessarily extremely high.

Indeed it would set a very dangerous legal precedent if crimes perpetrated by defendants 'on the run' were considered reasonable behaviour by arguing that they had no choice because they were on the run. Ludicrous and circular nonsense!

I hope the judge will bring keep the court and this case in good order as I'm starting to sense it's a bit of a circus. JMO MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Along the lines of whether or not the baby was born in the AirBnB - if she was indeed born there, how did they manage that timing? Was CM booking a place to stay while she was in active labor? Did it just happen to work out that way, like they booked the place and then she spontaneously went in to labor while there? Was that The Plan for the birth - and if not, what was?

It is so wild to me (also a mother of 5 little ones born in a slightly longer time frame than CM's babies [mine 2016-2023, hers 2017-2021]) that this woman has been pregnant nearly constantly and has given birth 5 times, with nothing to show for it besides criminal charges. And she does not appear to be devastated about it? MOO.

Is it possible that CM felt signs of the baby coming and acted immediately?

Or are there any drugs / herbs or practises that women can use to induce birth when they feel the time is right and they want to hurry it along or bring it on immediately? Are there even drugs or medicines that do this?

 

[Smccat]

I do recall the town of Haltwhistle being mentioned which is in Northumberland but very close to Cumbria if that's any help.

When I heard Northumberland I was thinking much further north and somewhere coastal. Haltwhistle, is literally a stones throw over the border with Cumbria and much further south than I imagined.