UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #6

[Obergine]

Possibly left the cat in the car in its carrier?

Left the baby in the cat carrier... she says half joking

 

[Alyce]

Just found this:

Timeline of events in Constance Marten and Mark Gordon case

Mark Gordon and Constance Marten have gone on trial at the Old Bailey where they deny manslaughter by gross negligence of their baby daughter.

www.theargus.co.uk

The defendants’ Suzuki car broke down on the M18 motorway between junctions 5 and 6, and a recovery driver took them to a Sainsbury’s supermarket nearby. Gordon initially asked to be taken to Thorne in South Yorkshire. No baby is seen or heard by the recovery driver.

So the driver towed them to Sainsburys. They just ran out of petrol then?

No....MG did ask to go to Sainsburys ( and might indeed have stopped there ) but they were then taken to Leeds, as you noted earlier.




and on December 28, 2022, the couple's car broke down on the M18 in Doncaster.
A recovery company employee said he saw evidence of the couple "living in the vehicle", the court heard, but he saw no evidence of a baby.
"You will need to consider critically in that context any suggestion that the baby had been born at this time. If so, where was it that evening?", asked Mr Little.
The vehicle was towed to an address in Leeds,

Aristocrat and boyfriend 'carried baby around in Lidl bag in fatal runaway bid'

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon were dubbed 'arrogant' and 'selfish' as their manslaughter trial began

www.standard.co.uk

 

[Alyce]

CM's jacket was puffy. If she was wearing that - and lets say for arguments sake Victoria wasn't under it inside the tow truck - I think it could be quite difficult for a recovery driver to be able to know if that was weight or a pregnancy bump. IMO
Was it night time?

Edited for a typo

on December 28, 2022, the couple's car broke down on the M18 in Doncaster.
A recovery company employee said he saw evidence of the couple "living in the vehicle", but he saw no evidence of a baby.
You will need to consider critically in that context any suggestion that the baby had been born at this time. If so, where was it that evening?", asked Mr Little.

Aristocrat and boyfriend 'carried baby around in Lidl bag in fatal runaway bid'

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon were dubbed 'arrogant' and 'selfish' as their manslaughter trial began

www.standard.co.uk

 

[DianaWW]

Some write ups from today:

https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2024-03-06/constance-marten-acted-against-antenatal-expert-advice-before-babys-death

Defence begins in Marten and Gordon trial - BBC News

There is no legal obligation to register a pregnancy with the NHS, the court is told.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Nikynoo]

Left the baby in the cat carrier... she says half joking

I did think that, but thought it wouldn’t be appreciated

 

[DianaWW]

The mail write up. That’s it for his defence. I wonder if she will testify tomorrow.

Covid fears meant more women wanted natural births, expert tells trial

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon are accused of causing the death of Victoria by taking her on the run in January last year to prevent her being taken away by social services.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[rockthecasbah]

No....MG did ask to go to Sainsburys ( and might indeed have stopped there ) but they were then taken to Leeds, as you noted earlier.




and on December 28, 2022, the couple's car broke down on the M18 in Doncaster.
A recovery company employee said he saw evidence of the couple "living in the vehicle", the court heard, but he saw no evidence of a baby.
"You will need to consider critically in that context any suggestion that the baby had been born at this time. If so, where was it that evening?", asked Mr Little.
The vehicle was towed to an address in Leeds,

Aristocrat and boyfriend 'carried baby around in Lidl bag in fatal runaway bid'

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon were dubbed 'arrogant' and 'selfish' as their manslaughter trial began

www.standard.co.uk

Would be interesting to know where in Leeds - garage, friend's house, hotel?

 

[Smccat]

Would be interesting to know where in Leeds - garage, friend's house, hotel?

There are some little gaps I’d love to have filled, but I don’t think there’s anything pertinent to uncover now or really question.
I think the barristers are presenting what’s pertinent to them proving / discrediting the charges and that’s it. They probably have answers to the gaps and are satisfied as they can be with them.

Edit to add discrediting

 

[MadeleineMaxwell]

Or are there any drugs / herbs or practises that women can use to induce birth when they feel the time is right and they want to hurry it along or bring it on immediately? Are there even drugs or medicines that do this?

Yes there are. Drugs and medicines are used frequently in hospitals to start labour.

There are a few fairly effective (not evidence based or necessarily safe) home methods such as sex, nipple stimulation or certain essential oils.

 

[rockthecasbah]

The mail write up. That’s it for his defence. I wonder if she will testify tomorrow.

Covid fears meant more women wanted natural births, expert tells trial

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon are accused of causing the death of Victoria by taking her on the run in January last year to prevent her being taken away by social services.

www.dailymail.co.uk

This said one of the previous children was a home birth.

 

[DavidAT]

CM's jacket was puffy. If she was wearing that - and lets say for arguments sake Victoria wasn't under it inside the tow truck - I think it could be quite difficult for a recovery driver to be able to know if that was weight or a pregnancy bump. IMO
Was it night time?

Edited for a typo

True and also whether or not she had a baby under her coat. IMO his evidence isn't of much weight. He didn't notice a baby or evidence of a baby. He should have been asked (or should still be asked) whether he thought CM was pregnant, or whether when he recalls what he saw that evening it's possible she may have been heavily pregnant. He may well say he didn't notice evidence of pregnancy either.

On another point: if CM gives evidence I guess the jury will want to know how many weeks pregnant she was when she gave birth, on her account, on 24 December, because of the prematurity question. There may be no other evidence than hers on this, but (IMO) she should be asked.

 

[DavidAT]

Yes there are. Drugs and medicines are used frequently in hospitals to start labour.

There are a few fairly effective (not evidence based or necessarily safe) home methods such as sex, nipple stimulation or certain essential oils.

Raspberry leaf tea is believed by some (and denied by others) to be a help.

 

[Nikynoo]

True and also whether or not she had a baby under her coat. IMO his evidence isn't of much weight. He didn't notice a baby or evidence of a baby. He should have been asked (or should still be asked) whether he thought CM was pregnant, or whether when he recalls what he saw that evening it's possible she may have been heavily pregnant. He may well say he didn't notice evidence of pregnancy either.

On another point: if CM gives evidence I guess the jury will want to know how many weeks pregnant she was when she gave birth, on her account, on 24 December, because of the prematurity question. There may be no other evidence than hers on this, but (IMO) she should be asked.

I thought it was reported that she found out she was pregnant in March 2022? That would make the baby full term.
ETA todays witness did state that the placenta was that of a full term birth.

 

[Cardgame]

I thought it was reported that she found out she was pregnant in March 2022? That would make the baby full term.
ETA todays witness did state that the placenta was that of a full term birth.

Yes, according to CM, quotes in the trial podcast linked earlier in the thread.

As with so many things, we only have her word for it as there was no medical record etc. But I do find it hard to believe a very premature baby would have survived at all. JMO.

 

[Smccat]

Would be interesting to know where in Leeds - garage, friend's house, hotel?

Just thinking back and I know I said what I said re not a lot more to ponder but I can never stop. It’s interesting that as CM may have friends / contacts in Leeds. She went to Uni there didn’t she.

 

[ShadowPuppet]

I think this might be getting to the heart of it - CM/MG saying they only stayed in a tent as a last resort but wasn’t part of their parenting plans. The death was an unforeseen an accident but they then wanted to stay in the run.

Prosecution trying to make out that actually this was how they felt it was as maybe appropriate to look after a baby, didn’t see anything wrong with it despite it being objectively a foolish way to look after a baby when they had access to other means. And that their poor/selfish decisions directly contributed to the death of their child - which was the precise reason SS/police were searching for them in the first place.

But then, didn’t they claim they had no idea they were on the news until much later when a witness approached them? She said she was shocked when asked in Harwich if they were the couple from the news. That would have had to happen between 3am on the 6th of Jan and the evening the same day, when they travelled to Essex. On the 7th, they went to Colchester by taxi and on to East Ham (buggy footage).

So all the chaos before was supposedly purely hiding from SS, though they could have chosen much more settled ways to do it? I suppose, from the timeline, it adds up in a way because they then bought the tent and buggy (and disposed of buggy) and the prosecution claims that Victoria was put in the Lidl bag on that date for the first time.

However, though threatened enough by the manhunt they were newly aware of, to divert their plans and camp on the freezing South Downs, they chose to eat in a restaurant around others. Equally, they chose to reveal Victoria in the restaurant and, only after everyone in the restaurant had seen her and both of them, did they (according to the prosecution) hide her in the bag while on an empty street. So, it’s tricky to know how threatened they really felt and how much the element of the ‘manhunt’ pushed their decision making.

@Observe_dont_Absorb I studied Medical Herbalism (lower qualification) and the focus is on supporting the body’s natural processes, so any safer herbs to encourage labour would only encourage it in a woman who was naturally reaching that stage. There are herbs that induce labour without being ready, but many are associated with risks to the baby including strokes, placental abruption and foetal hypoxia and some have maternal risks too. It’s also complicated by lots of factors including over the counter or online products that don’t contain the herb they claim to, whether the plant itself is used or highly processed/diluted/combined, people administering alone at home with no knowledge around dosing or the type of application (eg. Oral/dermal), interactions with other potential medications, the varied amounts of chemicals contained in different plants that are the same herb, and individual differences. It’s possible for someone to choose to use them, but the results would tend to be varied or (if a high dose of a herb with strong induction properties) highly risky - or both.

One of the well-known ‘home remedies’ is Castor Oil (increases prostaglandin production), but there are very mixed medical opinions on it, as far as I’m aware. For less serious risks, there’s maternal diarrhoea and heightened cramping pains and, more concerningly, some studies seem to link it to placental abruption and meconium being present in amniotic fluid (potential link to foetal distress). However, some studies show that - in a medical setting with professionals administering - it can be a relatively low risk and effective way of inducing labour, but only in that setting. Again though, there are issues with non-standardised dosage etc. Equally, research tends to focus more on women who are ready to labour and not those wishing to induce before their body is ‘ready’.

Hope this is helpful

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0091218284901666 (showing safe professional use in medical research setting)​

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/234659718.pdf (showing link to meconium)

Heterogenous use of misoprostol for induction of labour: results of an online survey among midwives in German-speaking countries - Archives of Gynecology and Obstetrics (study showing that though a preferred treatment, it still has links to severe side effects, including placental abruption)

 

[Obergine]

A safe and relaxed environment can be a spur to labour once a woman is full-term. I went into labour with my second within an hour or so of my Mum arriving to look after the first. I do think the holiday cottage may have provided this.

 

[Nikynoo]

But then, didn’t they claim they had no idea they were on the news until much later when a witness approached them? She said she was shocked when asked in Harwich if they were the couple from the news. That would have had to happen between 3am on the 6th of Jan and the evening the same day, when they travelled to Essex. On the 7th, they went to Colchester by taxi and on to East Ham (buggy footage).

So all the chaos before was supposedly purely hiding from SS, though they could have chosen much more settled ways to do it? I suppose, from the timeline, it adds up in a way because they then bought the tent and buggy (and disposed of buggy) and the prosecution claims that Victoria was put in the Lidl bag on that date for the first time.

However, though threatened enough by the manhunt they were newly aware of, to divert their plans and camp on the freezing South Downs, they chose to eat in a restaurant around others. Equally, they chose to reveal Victoria in the restaurant and, only after everyone in the restaurant had seen her and both of them, did they (according to the prosecution) hide her in the bag while on an empty street. So, it’s tricky to know how threatened they really felt and how much the element of the ‘manhunt’ pushed their decision making.

@Observe_dont_Absorb I studied Medical Herbalism (lower qualification) and the focus is on supporting the body’s natural processes, so any safer herbs to encourage labour would only encourage it in a woman who was naturally reaching that stage. There are herbs that induce labour without being ready, but many are associated with risks to the baby including strokes, placental abruption and foetal hypoxia and some have maternal risks too. It’s also complicated by lots of factors including over the counter or online products that don’t contain the herb they claim to, whether the plant itself is used or highly processed/diluted/combined, people administering alone at home with no knowledge around dosing or the type of application (eg. Oral/dermal), interactions with other potential medications, the varied amounts of chemicals contained in different plants that are the same herb, and individual differences. It’s possible for someone to choose to use them, but the results would tend to be varied or (if a high dose of a herb with strong induction properties) highly risky - or both.

One of the well-known ‘home remedies’ is Castor Oil (increases prostaglandin production), but there are very mixed medical opinions on it, as far as I’m aware. For less serious risks, there’s maternal diarrhoea and heightened cramping pains and, more concerningly, some studies seem to link it to placental abruption and meconium being present in amniotic fluid (potential link to foetal distress). However, some studies show that - in a medical setting with professionals administering - it can be a relatively low risk and effective way of inducing labour, but only in that setting. Again though, there are issues with non-standardised dosage etc. Equally, research tends to focus more on women who are ready to labour and not those wishing to induce before their body is ‘ready’.

Hope this is helpful

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0091218284901666 (showing safe professional use in medical research setting)​

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/234659718.pdf (showing link to meconium)

Heterogenous use of misoprostol for induction of labour: results of an online survey among midwives in German-speaking countries - Archives of Gynecology and Obstetrics (study showing that though a preferred treatment, it still has links to severe side effects, including placental abruption)

Their initial destination though, was supposedly Portsmouth - or perhaps that was a ruse of some kind, bearing in mind that they had the tent and sleeping bags, the intention when they purchased them, was to camp out? I wonder if there was another destination in mind when they left London, maybe someone's back garden (or perhaps on the Crichel Estate in Dorset?). If it was their intention to camp out on the Downs at the outset, it shows how disjointed their thinking processes were at that time.

 

[Mirabel091]

But then, didn’t they claim they had no idea they were on the news until much later when a witness approached them? She said she was shocked when asked in Harwich if they were the couple from the news. That would have had to happen between 3am on the 6th of Jan and the evening the same day, when they travelled to Essex. On the 7th, they went to Colchester by taxi and on to East Ham (buggy footage).

On a side note, I do wonder what the point was of asking if they were "that couple from the news". I can understand not wanting to report every mixed race couple with a young baby you happen to see, but surely there are other ways you can try to establish that without coming straight out and saying you've recognised them from the telly.

 

[InstantCoffee]

So today we start with CM's Defence. I'll eat my hat if she takes the stand! I suspect her KC will have managed to find more experts than MGs though. JMO