GUILTY UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #6

[Alyce]

12:52pm

'We acted on impulse and instinct'​

The court heard that when Marten and Gordon's car caught fire in Manchester on the M61 on January 5, the couple lost a lot of cash.
Asked what the plan was, Marten said: "It all happened so quickly. Our plan disintegrated after the car.
"We acted on impulse and instinct. We had to work out what we were going to do to save Victoria."

Recap after Constance Marten gives evidence in trial

Updates from the Old Bailey as the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon continues

www.theargus.co.uk

 

[DavidAT]

From the Telegraph live feed…‘ said initially the plan had been to go abroad, but following a legal dispute with a member of her family, Mr Gordon’s passport was not available so they were unable to travel.’
I struggle to see how a legal dispute with her family would prevent MG’s passport being available!

All this non-specific language she is using! A traumatic event, a family member, a legal dispute.

 

[Skigh]

View attachment 488626

Presumably in a stable with a bright star shining above after finding no room at an Inn.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

11:57AM

Constance Marten felt ‘guilty’ when baby died​

Constance Marten told jurors she did not expose her baby to cold or allow her to get too hot so far as she was aware.
Mr FitzGibbon said: “So far as you are concerned, did you give her anything less than the proper care you thought she deserved?”
Marten replied: “I gave her the best that any mother would, yeah.”
She told jurors Victoria died last January 9, saying: “I do not think it is anything I will ever move on from.”
She said she felt “guilty”, adding: “I think initially it was disbelief, shock, intense grief.”

Constance Marten tells court family set private detectives on her

Constance Marten has claimed that she was followed by private detectives in a row over her grandmother’s will.

www.telegraph.co.uk

Is she actually delusional?!

 

[InstantCoffee]

From the Telegraph live feed…‘ said initially the plan had been to go abroad, but following a legal dispute with a member of her family, Mr Gordon’s passport was not available so they were unable to travel.’
I struggle to see how a legal dispute with her family would prevent MG’s passport being available!

Does this suggest that there was a Police matter between MG and a member of CMs family? The only way I can think that CM's family would have any bearing on MGs passport situation is if he had been told by Police / legal authorities that he was not allowed to leave the country after an incident where police had been involved. That might be wild speculation but I also don't understand how it would affect him otherwise!

 

[Alyce]

1:00pm

Marten feared 'someone would bash door down'​

Marten told the court baby Victoria was in good health when she and Gordon were staying in hotels between her birth, which Marten said happened on December 24, and the car fire in Manchester on January 5.
She said: "I was in good physical health but I was in a high state of anxiety. "I feared someone would bash down the door and take her [baby Victoria] away. It was a mix of being joyful and very anxious at the same time."

Recap after Constance Marten gives evidence in trial

Updates from the Old Bailey as the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon continues

www.theargus.co.uk

 

[Alyce]

1:02PM

Trying to avoid social services​

Miss Marten said in the run up to Victoria’s birth she and Mr Gordon had been moving around regularly in order to avoid social services.
Asked why they were trying to avoid the authorities, she replied: “So that she would not be taken.”
When her defence counsel Francis FitzGibbon KC asked why she feared her baby would be taken from her, she said: “Because my four other kids had been taken.”

Constance Marten tells court family set private detectives on her

Constance Marten has claimed that she was followed by private detectives in a row over her grandmother’s will.

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[DavidAT]

Is she actually delusional?!

"I feel guilty" could be a brilliant prepared line - I have never heard a defendant engage in wordplay on that word before - but IMO the mundane explanation is much more likely, i.e. she is saying how she feels.

Same goes for how she says she felt a mixture of joy and anxiety and was scared someone might bash the door down and take Victoria away. Just going by the text in the reports, she seems like an honest witness and not someone who's hell-bent on misleading.

The way she uses "impulse" and "instinct" and "work out" to describe their approach after the car fire suggests she is not intellectually brilliant (IMO). If you act on impulse you don't wait around to work out what to do.

 

[Alyce]

1:06pm

Break for lunch​

The trial will resume at 2pm.

Recap after Constance Marten gives evidence in trial

Updates from the Old Bailey as the trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon continues

www.theargus.co.uk

 

[Nikynoo]

Wow, I'm sure a lot of us would like to send a "stern email" to our employers and increase our income tenfold. Poor Little Rich Girl indeed.

The Trust are not her employers though, are they?

 

[Rolypolyoly]

11:18am

'I did nothing but show baby Victoria love' says Marten​

Marten has begun giving evidence.
Mr Fitzgibbon asked: "Did you do anything to harm baby Victoria?"
Ms Marten said: "Absolutely not.
"I did nothing btu show her love."

It didn't look like she was showing her much love when she was practically dropping her in the buggy on the footage!

 

[DianaWW]

I mean I do understand it must be infuriating to be treated differently to her siblings financially, but even so. Most people don't have money given to them by their family each month. If they want to provide for their children, they go out to work. There was nothing preventing either of them from doing that!

I do think she genuinely believes she is the victim in all of this, and truly feels that she didn't do anything wrong... It's all just so tragic, but also completely avoidable. JMO.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

1:02PM

Trying to avoid social services​

Miss Marten said in the run up to Victoria’s birth she and Mr Gordon had been moving around regularly in order to avoid social services.
Asked why they were trying to avoid the authorities, she replied: “So that she would not be taken.”
When her defence counsel Francis FitzGibbon KC asked why she feared her baby would be taken from her, she said: “Because my four other kids had been taken.”

Constance Marten tells court family set private detectives on her

Constance Marten has claimed that she was followed by private detectives in a row over her grandmother’s will.

www.telegraph.co.uk

Moving around so she would not be taken, but she was only going to keep for 6 months and then give her to a "carer"?

So they never actually wanted her or the idyllic family life she makes out she was chasing, she just wanted to play dress up for a while and then get rid of the responsibility on her terms?

Running around the country putting her vulnerable newborn at risk, and ultimately causing her death to spite social services? Her family?

How can she think she is helping the jurors impression of her? She is nuts!

 

[Rolypolyoly]

I mean I do understand it must be infuriating to be treated differently to her siblings financially, but even so. Most people don't have money given to them by their family each month. If they want to provide for their children, they go out to work. There was nothing preventing either of them from doing that!

I do think she genuinely believes she is the victim in all of this, and truly feels that she didn't do anything wrong... It's all just so tragic, but also completely avoidable. JMO.

I agree, it must be frustrating but we don't know the whole story on that, was it always going to be the case or was it because she got mixed up in that cult and had a history of making bad, impulsive decisions and the trustees were acting accordingly? Were there conditions attached to the trust rather they all had to meet in order to have homes bought for them?

You're right, there was nothing preventing them from getting jobs and providing for their family, but it sounds like she would rather stamp her feet like a spoilt little girl and complain that nothing is fair!.

 

[rockthecasbah]

The Trust are not her employers though, are they?

No, I mean her sense of entitlement to getting free cash just by asking. If she wanted more income, she could have got a job.

 

[Skigh]

I mean I do understand it must be infuriating to be treated differently to her siblings financially, but even so. Most people don't have money given to them by their family each month. If they want to provide for their children, they go out to work. There was nothing preventing either of them from doing that!

I do think she genuinely believes she is the victim in all of this, and truly feels that she didn't do anything wrong... It's all just so tragic, but also completely avoidable. JMO.

Maybe money was restricted because the family did want her to pursue her career and they could also be concerned she might be drawn into another cult or be scammed in some way if she had free access to large sums of money.

 

[Nikynoo]

Moving around so she would not be taken, but she was only going to keep for 6 months and then give her to a "carer"?

So they never actually wanted her or the idyllic family life she makes out she was chasing, she just wanted to play dress up for a while and then get rid of the responsibility on her terms?

Running around the country putting her vulnerable newborn at risk, and ultimately causing her death to spite social services? Her family?

How can she think she is helping the jurors impression of her? She is nuts!

I think the plan was to have someone care for Victoria abroad until they could both join her. Which, together with the passport issue for MG (what can this be, and did it prevent him from testifying so it wouldn't come out?), points to something that has yet to be resolved. It seems to me that there is much discord in the Marten family.

 

[Nikynoo]

Maybe money was restricted because the family did want her to pursue her career and they could also be concerned she might be drawn into another cult or be scammed in some way if she had free access to large sums of money.

It reallt depends on the terms of the Trust. She has stated that its a 'Discretionary Trust', so that usually is for housing and education. Because there were 'ad hoc' payments in the run up to the period in question, I really think that there has been a change in Trustees. I do hope that the Trustees are called as witnesses (even though it may not be directly relevant to Victoria's death), the defence need to show that actually she did not have access to the Trust for every expenditure.

 

[Nikynoo]

No, I mean her sense of entitlement to getting free cash just by asking. If she wanted more income, she could have got a job.

I see that, but why should she? By her account, she is entitled to Trust funds on the same basis as her siblings.

Also, the prosecution is claiming that she had access to the Trust Fund, they have not said she should have got a job. CMs point is that yes, she did have some access, but not on the same basis as her siblings.

I do think the family dispute has brought on a certain amount of paranoia. Hopefully, we will find out more.

 

[Alyce]

1:37PM

Marten describes birth of baby​

The court was told that on December 20, 2022, the couple had booked a holiday cottage in Northumberland and Miss Marten said Victoria was born there late on Christmas Eve.
She explained that the couple had taken various items with them to assist them with the birth, including a tens machine and sheets and blankets.
She said they also had a paddling pool, but had not used it.
Miss Marten said she had already given birth at home once and was confident she could do so again without any problems.
“If I felt there were any issues then I would have gone to hospital,” she explained.


1:42PM

34 burner phones found in couple’s car​

Miss Marten explained that the couple had moved around every few days in order to avoid being pursued by private investigators that she believed had been hired by her family.
Asked why it was the case that when her car was recovered there were 34 “burner phones” inside, she said it was because she and Mr Gordon believed their mobiles and emails were being “hacked”.
She said they had used cash to pay for things when they were moving around in order to avoid being traced.




1:44PM

Marten ‘wanted to bury’ placenta​

Miss Marten was also asked about a car fire which took place on the M61 motorway on January 5, in which many of the couple’s possessions were destroyed.
She told jurors: “It all happened so quickly. Our plans disintegrated after the car fire, we acted on impulse and instinct.”
The court heard how the couple had left the scene before the fire brigade arrived because they were worried the police would alert the authorities and baby Victoria would be removed.
Miss Marten was also asked by her defence counsel Mr FitzGibbon why she had taken the placenta away with her after the birth.
She said: “I did not know what to do with it to be honest, it is not something you can dispose of easily. I wanted to bury it and plant something there but having Victoria and moving around so much we did not get round to it really.”

Constance Marten tells court family set private detectives on her

Constance Marten has claimed that she was followed by private detectives in a row over her grandmother’s will.

www.telegraph.co.uk