UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #6

[Nikynoo]

Baby ‘screaming in distress’ with 'no clothes' as on-the-run parents refused help

A newborn baby cried “in distress” as her on-the-run parents refused help days before she was found dead in a shopping bag, a court has heard.

www.newsshopper.co.uk

rbbm
''They checked into the Harwich Premier Inn under the false name of Thomas with Marten paying in cash at 3am, jurors were told.
Staff noticed she seemed “quite distressed” and declined the use of a cot for the child strapped to her front under a blanket.
''She appeared “drained”, spoke with a “posh” accent and looked like a character from the Disney film Brave, the court heard.
That afternoon, receptionist Rae Robson told jurors Marten appeared “stressed” when told she would have to vacate her room because she did not have any identity documents.
Giving evidence, Ms Robson said: “She asked to extend her stay for another night.
“She only had cash, she had no identification on her or a bank card because it was left in the car that broke down.
“I told her I would give her about 10 minutes to get her stuff together and leave.
“Me and my manager then knocked on the door to encourage them to leave.”
After the couple came out, Ms Robson went into the room and noticed a smell “like rotten flesh” or an “infected piercing”, she said.''

But that was before both the prosecution and defence said Victoria died.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Imagining the trustees. Thinking their job going to be simply approving money requests “for the benefit” of CM. Sitting around an antique boardroom table. Meeting & trying to comprehend CM requests, and keeping to their responsibilities as trustees … knowing that no amount of money “benefits” CM.

 

[DavidAT]

I'm waiting for closing statements. We don't have the full picture here. There are gaps - e.g. the lidl shopping bag - did the prosecution say, look, this picture shows Victoria in the bag, or this witness saw Victoria being put into the bag?

ETA - I have an uneasy feeling about CM and it has nothing to do with 'acting'.

In their opening speech the prosecution said that in their submission the child spent much of "its life" in a Lidl bag, and that they treated her body "as if she was refuse".

Constance Marten and her lover 'caused death of their baby girl'

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon are accused at the Old Bailey in London of fleeing across the country in a 'desperately selfish' bid to prevent their fifth child being taken away from them.

www.dailymail.co.uk

If the charges against CM and MG are allowed to go to the jury, it seems likely that the "much of its life in a Lidl bag" phrasing will be hurled back at the prosecution by the defence, because unless all the court reporters heard otherwise and thought it wasn't worth reporting, the prosecution have failed to show this.

I am not aware of a single piece of direct or circumstantial evidence that suggests she was ever put in the bag even for 5 seconds while she was alive. Originally I did think she was in the bag after they dumped the buggy in Whitechapel, but only because she's not visible in the video and neither of her parents has an arm around their front. But she could have been under CM's coat in a sling. There is IMO no good reason for disbelieving CM when she says Victoria was never in the bag while alive.

How on earth was manslaughter allowed to get past half-time??

 

[InstantCoffee]

“We are looking at this from a Western perspective.

“There are people around the world who live in tents, there are children who live in igloos as long as you give them warmth and love and food… I would have preferred not to be in a tent.”

Access Restricted

Um. Maybe a Western Perspective is appropriate here, on account of YOU being a white Western woman who grew up in a massive stately home, not an igloo.

JMO.

CM is being so disingenuous. Also her 'Just look at France in Calais, there are refugees who are living in tents and their children do not die.' She's comparing apples with pears. CM neither has the generations of customs and skills of indigenous populations and their way of life, nor was she being made to flee a war zone or similar. She may have felt she was fleeing some kind of persecution, but the reality was people and organisations only wanted the best outcome for her and her children. I'm sure a few of those refugees would have happily swapped places with her!

 

[DavidAT]

“We are looking at this from a Western perspective.

“There are people around the world who live in tents, there are children who live in igloos as long as you give them warmth and love and food… I would have preferred not to be in a tent.”

Access Restricted

Um. Maybe a Western Perspective is appropriate here, on account of YOU being a white Western woman who grew up in a massive stately home, not an igloo.

JMO.

She is objectively right, wherever she comes from, whatever her skin colour is, and however she grew up.

 

[DavidAT]

CM is being so disingenuous. Also her 'Just look at France in Calais, there are refugees who are living in tents and their children do not die.' She's comparing apples with pears. CM neither has the generations of customs and skills of indigenous populations and their way of life, nor was she being made to flee a war zone or similar. She may have felt she was fleeing some kind of persecution, but the reality was people and organisations only wanted the best outcome for her and her children. I'm sure a few of those refugees would have happily swapped places with her!

What she was fleeing - having her child seized at birth - would be considered a war crime if it happened in war.

 

[Nikynoo]

In their opening speech the prosecution said that in their submission the child spent much of "its life" in a Lidl bag, and that they treated her body "as if she was refuse".

Constance Marten and her lover 'caused death of their baby girl'

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon are accused at the Old Bailey in London of fleeing across the country in a 'desperately selfish' bid to prevent their fifth child being taken away from them.

www.dailymail.co.uk

If the charges against CM and MG are allowed to go to the jury, it seems likely that the "much of its life in a Lidl bag" phrasing will be hurled back at the prosecution by the defence, because unless all the court reporters heard otherwise and thought it wasn't worth reporting, the prosecution have failed to show this.

I am not aware of a single piece of direct or circumstantial evidence that suggests she was ever put in the bag even for 5 seconds while she was alive. Originally I did think she was in the bag after they dumped the buggy in Whitechapel, but only because she's not visible in the video and neither of her parents has an arm around their front. But she could have been under CM's coat in a sling. There is IMO no good reason for disbelieving CM when she says Victoria was never in the bag while alive.

How on earth was manslaughter allowed to get past half-time??

Well, they do have causing or allowing the death of a child as an alternative, which, I believe is now a maximum life sentence.

 

[InstantCoffee]

What she was fleeing - having her child seized at birth - would be considered a war crime if it happened in war.

But it wasn't in a war... that's the point. The only reason CM had her child taken away from her at birth was because of CM (& MG). You can't look at it in isolation - and neither will the jury. They have been directed to look at the context.

 

[DianaWW]

So she was offered a house then, but turned it down. The same year she had her first child. Didn’t she say yesterday that the trust wouldn’t buy her a house?

But Mr Smith said she had also been offered a house in early 2017 but had declined it just before contracts were due to be exchanged.

Access Restricted

 

[rockthecasbah]

Duplicate

 

[rockthecasbah]

So she was offered a house then, but turned it down. The same year she had her first child.

But Mr Smith said she had also been offered a house in early 2017 but had declined it just before contracts were due to be exchanged.

Access Restricted

This just gets weirder and weirder. My brothers got bought houses, but I didn't, oh wait I did....

 

[glibby]

I've known a couple of rich people a bit like this. Not to this extent obviously. They really have so little concept of anything that if they don't follow the 'family line' of school, university, professional job, integration into the existing familial social structure, marriage, kids, then they massively flounder. Inability to handle 'life admin' is common, as is a bananas approach to money - I know one who sold a house in central London to use the money to pay rent on a cottage in Devon. They could've rented the London house to pay the Devon rent, plus an income, but instead they sold it and proceeded to spend the lot on rent, beauty treatments and getting taxis back to London on the weekend. It's unbelievable when you see it in person, how someone can be so totally dysfunctional.

'They wouldn't buy me a house' is likely to mean 'I decided right before contracts that I didn't want it' for whatever reason. The expectation would have been that someone resolve whatever she didn't like about it, find her a new house, buy that for her on the understanding the exact same thing might happen, and continue, for eternity, until she had a house. She doesn't currently have a house, ergo nobody has given her one and that is their failing, not hers.

It's like a different planet.

 

[rockthecasbah]

“I don’t think lying is particularly bad.
“I think sometimes you might be in a position where you have to.”
She added: “To save my child, for myself and my family, I will do anything.”

Remove the words "my child" from the above. I hope the jury are as disgusted with her as I am.

 

[Sherlockhames]

This just gets weirder and weirder. My brothers got bought houses, but I didn't, oh wait I did....

She seems to have a bit of a persecution complex. It might suit her own narrative to believe that the world was against her. But we only have her word for that. She seems to perhaps thrive on being the victim. And even when offered the opportunity to not be the victim, she doesn’t take it. I do think there is a lot of family history that is not being presented here that wouldn’t necessarily entirely support her narrative.

 

[InstantCoffee]

“I don’t think lying is particularly bad.
“I think sometimes you might be in a position where you have to.”
She added: “To save my child, for myself and my family, I will do anything.”

Remove the words "my child" from the above. I hope the jury are as disgusted with her as I am.

Except a Covid Test!

 

[rockthecasbah]

Except a Covid Test!

I know! A covid test isn't even administering any medicine, it's just a cotton bud up your nose

 

[DavidAT]

Recap: Constance Marten cross-examined at baby death trial

Constance Marten is to continue giving evidence in the trial centring around the death of her baby daughter

www.theargus.co.uk

OMG...

"Court proceedings were going ahead about her other children.

The hospital said Marten could have a video link but if she left the hospital that would count as "abandoning" her child because there would be difficulty getting back on the ward due to Covid.

"It wasn't an easy decision," said Marten, who said she was trying to get her children back."

So she had to leave the hospital within a day or so of giving birth to try to get her other children back, and officials in NHS posts told her such an action would count as "abandoning" her newborn and...something to do with Covid. One might easily suppose that if it wasn't to do with Covid it would be to do with climate change.

Other officials may have told her that if she didn't attend the event outside the hospital, then it would be even less likely she'd be allowed to keep those children too.

What is a woman whom the state puts in such a position supposed to do?

<modsnip - off topic>

From the evidence as it's been reported, it seems IMO that the idea that CM "abandoned" a newborn in the past is a lie, or what is known as a state truth because it's recorded using that word in a state file.

Those who incline towards the prosecution side in this hearing should note well that the real human individuals in state positions who decided to capture CM and MG's children, and who hunted them with a view to seizing their fifth child as soon as she was born, haven't come to court to explain themselves.

 

[Cardgame]

She seems to have a bit of a persecution complex. It might suit her own narrative to believe that the world was against her. But we only have her word for that. She seems to perhaps thrive on being the victim. And even when offered the opportunity to not be the victim, she doesn’t take it. I do think there is a lot of family history that is not being presented here that wouldn’t necessarily entirely support her narrative.

I'm reminded of those con artists who convince their victims that they are on the run from MI5 or that assassins are out to get them.

for example:

Robert Hendy-Freegard: The real story of The Puppet Master conman

Serial liar duped multiple people into believing he was an undercover operative pursuing the IRA

www.independent.co.uk

"The fantasy escalated when Freegard persuaded Atkinson that their cover had been blown and the duo persuaded two young women, Sarah Smith and Maria Hendy, to join them on the run, Atkinson lying to them that he was suffering from cancer"

"Smith was persuaded to cut and dye her hair and give up her entire £300,000 inheritance from her family, while Atkinson handed over almost £400,000 to Freegard for “witness protection”."

I have often wondered if either CM or MG is this kind of perpetrator. It would be hard to know, unless the victim is persuaded it is safe to speak out against the perp. IMO it is interesting that CM is giving evidence and MG is not, you could read into that either way, but it could be significant.

ETA; the correct link, apologies

 

[DavidAT]

Except a Covid Test!

Where's the evidence for this? Has it been put to her in the witness box so she can give her side?

 

[Nikynoo]

Curious to know what you mean by this?

I'm struggling to put it into words, but its like she is living in an alternative state. Deeply traumatised re her family, seems to have skewed her perception of many things.

ETA see cardgames post at 859 - its like the victims in that scenario, analternative parrallel universe.