UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #7

[Nikynoo]

The defiant behaviours pre-date her time in the cult though, judging by her own SM entries.

I can only go back to 2012 on her FB, and the cult was before then, about 2005/2006 i think.

 

[BreadnLumpit]

I can only go back to 2012 on her FB, and the cult was before then, about 2005/2006 i think.

Sometimes FB yields more interesting results when you search for a name and then select [posts] rather than [people].

 

[Nikynoo]

First time I have read that the family court said their living arrangements were well below the standard a reasonable parent should provide. Then the DV incident.
CM didnt mention this but but said it was only about the DV incident the children were removed,
I assume that the living conditions must have been pretty dire MOO

I didn’t read the article that way as in the living conditions were not suitable, but rather the living arrangements were not suitable and that would fit in with behaviours (such as DV).

 

[Telltale]

You're absolutely right, of course.
Sometimes if I become totally enraged by someone I'll force myself to walk in their shoes because of the need to understand what it is that motivates people to do crazy things.
It's a good exercise and dissolves all the wrath, but only for a short time.

I think I struggle with her because usually, these cases are wrapped up in the struggles of poverty, addiction, domestic abuse etc. Which doesn't excuse their crimes, but do make it easier to understand how it happened.

With Marten... So many of the barriers and struggles experienced even by your average middle class family just... didn't exist for her. If she wanted a house or a car, it would have been bought for her. If she didn't want to work, she didn't have to, she had a middle class family's income as pocket money. Private therapists, bankers, lawyers, healthcare, childcare were always just a phonecall away. Even without it, she had her education, friends and family. Even her upper-class accent and mannerisms are a serious asset in the UK.

Class and money does not invalidate her trauma, mental health, unstable childhood... but she only had to click her fingers for the kind of help/resources ordinary people can only dream of.

 

[Nikynoo]

Sometimes FB yields more interesting results when you search for a name and then select [posts] rather than [people].

The earliest I’ve found on post is 2008. Nothing pre cult.

 

[Maryanna]

In fairness we don't know where in Wales they were living - there's plenty of rural areas there, so they may have been in the countryside for a while before hightailing it back to city life.

It's always difficult to understand other people's disfunctional relationships. I just see their relationship as one of toxic symbiosis:

IMO she, having grown up with staff picking up after her, doesn't know how to cook and keep a clean house but knows how to give orders, and he grew to adulthood in prison - where a different sort of staff picked up after him and gave orders.

I suspect that both of them are equally volatile and prone to domestic violence rather than it all being one sided, and that they both see that as "being passionately in love" rather than domestic violence. But just like everyone else, I don't know and I'll never know - I'm just reading between the lines and drawing my own conclusions based on my own life experiences and those of people close to ne.

You could definitely be on to something there with your third paragraph.

 

[Maryanna]

I think I struggle with her because usually, these cases are wrapped up in the struggles of poverty, addiction, domestic abuse etc. Which doesn't excuse their crimes, but do make it easier to understand how it happened.

With Marten... So many of the barriers and struggles experienced even by your average middle class family just... didn't exist for her. If she wanted a house or a car, it would have been bought for her. If she didn't want to work, she didn't have to, she had a middle class family's income as pocket money. Private therapists, bankers, lawyers, healthcare, childcare were always just a phonecall away. Even without it, she had her education, friends and family. Even her upper-class accent and mannerisms are a serious asset in the UK.

Class and money does not invalidate her trauma, mental health, unstable childhood... but she only had to click her fingers for the kind of help/resources ordinary people can only dream of.

She doesn't have an upper class accent. Which is not uncommon in Britain among those who come from elite backgrounds and who reject the caste system and don't care for having high-powered or high-paying jobs, or careers or business activities.

Her (his/their) own choosing according to evidence disclosed during this trial:

She admitted under cross examination that the trust were buying her a house in early 2017 (child ff was born late 2017) but she refused to sign the sale contracts at the last minute. At the time she claimed her backing out was because of her "career progression", but in court she said it was because she wanted to live in the countryside.

Neither makes any sense - once the house was hers she could have sold it and bought some where rural or rented it out.

Not necessarily so. That kind of family and their lawyers will know a lot about how to make properties available for use while still keeping ultimate control of them, which is a large part of what trusts are for.

 

[Maryanna]

I think he has to get the same verdict, does he not?
His lawyer painted her as a domineering woman, in a way, at a stretch but put no case forward for him so they'll either fry or walk together if I'm reading the law right? am I?

Also, on the night the baby died, he must have known she was exhausted.. she gave birth, she was doing the feeding. The least he could have done was to remain awake while she slept?

That annoyed me.
He could have watched the baby..
he did not.
Lazy.

They don't have to get the same verdict. Jurors might think that the best (for the defence) physical explanation for what happened is what she said, but that even in those circumstances she's culpable, but he on the other hand isn't, or isn't quite.

Purely going by media trial reports, that's not how I would think as a juror but they're allowed to think like that.

 

[Telltale]

You could definitely be on to something there with your third paragraph.

Possibly, but also those sorts of houses don't have significant amounts of staff these days. It's less Downtown Abbey and more endless DIY project for the families that inherit those big estates. Most are 'land rich cash poor.' It was a particularly nice estate, so I'm sure they had some staff. I'd guess a groundskeeper, gardener, maybe a cleaner, a cook (and a groomsmen if they had stables.) More for the upkeep of that massive property than allowing the family to never lift a finger or touch a utensil.

She also lived in London for a few years, travelled and I think went to boarding school (the old fashioned kind) She should be able to look after herself at least as much as any student does.

Gordon I can understand. I have no explanation why Marten seems bent on the kind of squalor usually achieved only by junkies or generational grinding poverty.

 

[kittythehare]

They don't have to get the same verdict. Jurors might think that the best (for the defence) physical explanation for what happened is what she said, but that even in those circumstances she's culpable, but he on the other hand isn't, or isn't quite.

Purely going by media trial reports, that's not how I would think as a juror but they're allowed to think like that.

Do you happen to have a link explaining this, please?

 

[Telltale]

She doesn't have an upper class accent. Which is not uncommon in Britain among those who come from elite backgrounds and who reject the caste system and don't care for having high-powered or high-paying jobs, or careers or business activities.

I live here. She blooody well does. I can hear how much her boarding school cost in the way she rolls her vowels.

It's not just an accent anyway, it's mannerisms, manners, vocabulary, aesthetic. She can dress like a binlady and use all the slang she likes. Any British person would clock her before she finished a sentence.

The class system is a thousand years old. It both doesn't matter in the modern world and permeates all aspects of culture and society. She can reject it all she wants, but she can't escape it and she definitely can't hide what peg she was born on.

Also it's easy to reject the elitist capitalist system when you have a trust fund paying out every month.

 

[Maryanna]

Do you happen to have a link explaining this, please?

I didn't get it from a website. All I'm saying is jurors take a view on the disputed facts and they can form opinions based on how witnesses come across to them in the witness box, so they can think well we accept that she smothered the baby accidentally but nonetheless we think she was culpable in doing so because of choices she'd made up to then, whereas as for him he "should" have made sure it didn't happen but let's say he thought she was awake enough and he was going to get a bit of sleep before it was his turn, and there's no reason to think he took the view that he couldn't care less what happened, didn't care whether she was about to keel over or not... They can think like that, and it may result in different verdicts for the two defendants. I don't think this is likely, and it's now how I would think - always only going by media trial reports - but it might not be considered perverse for a juror to think like that. Or alternatively they may think she sounded like an out-and-out liar, but as for him they might think we don't know because we haven't heard from him.

 

[Maryanna]

I live here. She blooody well does. I can hear how much her boarding school cost in the way she rolls her vowels.

It's not just an accent anyway, it's mannerisms, manners, vocabulary, aesthetic. She can dress like a binlady and use all the slang she likes. Any British person would clock her before she finished a sentence.

The class system is a thousand years old. It both doesn't matter in the modern world and permeates all aspects of culture and society. She can reject it all she wants, but she can't escape it and she definitely can't hide what peg she was born on.

Also it's easy to reject the elitist capitalist system when you have a trust fund paying out every month.

I was just talking about her accent. And I live here too. And I also went to boarding school and it doesn't give everyone the same accent. I'm British FWIW.

BTW what do you mean by "the old-fashioned kind" of boarding school?

She went to St Mary's Shaftesbury, a Catholic school that was founded in 1945 and closed a few years ago. No girls' BS in Britain is particularly old. Which isn't to say old means the same as old-fashioned.

"Also it's easy to reject the elitist capitalist system when you have a trust fund paying out every month."

Easy can be good.

"The class system is a thousand years old. It both doesn't matter in the modern world and permeates all aspects of culture and society."

"All aspects of culture and society" include SS culture, rules, and procedures, as well as the mentality required to function as a member of the SS which the last time I looked were a social organisation, as for that matter are the family courts.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Possibly, but also those sorts of houses don't have significant amounts of staff these days. It's less Downtown Abbey and more endless DIY project for the families that inherit those big estates. Most are 'land rich cash poor.' It was a particularly nice estate, so I'm sure they had some staff. I'd guess a groundskeeper, gardener, maybe a cleaner, a cook (and a groomsmen if they had stables.) More for the upkeep of that massive property than allowing the family to never lift a finger or touch a utensil.

She also lived in London for a few years, travelled and I think went to boarding school (the old fashioned kind) She should be able to look after herself at least as much as any student does.

Gordon I can understand. I have no explanation why Marten seems bent on the kind of squalor usually achieved only by junkies or generational grinding poverty.

The house had 150 staff.

 

[BreadnLumpit]

Not necessarily so. That kind of family and their lawyers will know a lot about how to make properties available for use while still keeping ultimate control of them, which is a large part of what trusts are for.

If that were the case then it would be the trust buying the property (with her having a lifetime interest or some other arrangement), and CMs signature would not have been required on the sale contracts.

 

[Telltale]

I was just talking about her accent. And I live here too. And I also went to boarding school and it doesn't give everyone the same accent. I'm British FWIW.

No, it doesn't, and yet it gives people a certain private school cadence that is incredibly recognisable. Boarding school tends to compound it.
People who insist they don't have any such thing always have it the thickest.

BTW what do you mean by "the old-fashioned kind" of boarding school?
Old fashioned in that they sure ain't gonna be picking up after you. You know, gorgeous old mansion but double glazing is a sin and central heating is for the weak.

Easy can be good
Bull. She didn't reject her class privileges or the security of generational wealth. The compound interest of working class exploitation has been paying her bills for the last decade while she was busy failing at being a mother.


"All aspects of culture and society" include SS culture, rules, and procedures, as well as the mentality required to function as a member of the SS which the last time I looked were a social organisation, as for that matter are the family courts.
Sure, agree, and 100% in her favour. How many women of her background get their kids removed by SS? That takes effort. Sure, Gordon is a safeguarding concern, but 99% of SCs can be fixed with good lawyers and enough money. Counseling? I'll go private, Rehab? Checking in sat. A stable living situation? By a house. Responsible adult to raise child? I shall purchase one immediately! Etc

She actually chose not to listen

The house had 150 staff.

Well f-uk me I stand corrected. It's bigger than I remember too.

 

[Maryanna]

Possibly, but also those sorts of houses don't have significant amounts of staff these days. It's less Downtown Abbey and more endless DIY project for the families that inherit those big estates. Most are 'land rich cash poor.' It was a particularly nice estate, so I'm sure they had some staff. I'd guess a groundskeeper, gardener, maybe a cleaner, a cook (and a groomsmen if they had stables.) More for the upkeep of that massive property than allowing the family to never lift a finger or touch a utensil.

She also lived in London for a few years, travelled and I think went to boarding school (the old fashioned kind) She should be able to look after herself at least as much as any student does.

Gordon I can understand. I have no explanation why Marten seems bent on the kind of squalor usually achieved only by junkies or generational grinding poverty.

"I'd guess a groundskeeper, gardener, maybe a cleaner, a cook (and a groomsmen if they had stables."

I doubt even Hoares know the precise millile of society that she comes from. All I was saying is she probably grew up with servants picking stuff up after her, cooking for her, and so on. I don't watch TV and I didn't get this image from any TV programme, and it's nothing to do with "upstairs, downstairs" and ringing bells whatsoever. There are bourgeois families with no real estate but a house in North London worth £3m and sitting on money that's only 3 or 4 generations old who aren't "poshos", and who have no grounds or grooms, but who still have someone living in their house skivvying for them, and who have members who've never wrung out an item of clothing or looked at a price in a supermarket.

 

[jackal67]

I didn’t read the article that way as in the living conditions were not suitable, but rather the living arrangements were not suitable and that would fit in with behaviours (such as DV).

I didn’t read the article that way as in the living conditions were not suitable, but rather the living arrangements were not suitable and that would fit in with behaviours (such as DV).

Ok ,So what did the Judge mean by living arrangements falling well below the standards that most reasonable parents would provide ?Anyone else have thoughts on the Judges comments?

 

[DianaWW]

Ok ,So what did the Judge mean by living arrangements falling well below the standards that most reasonable parents would provide ?Anyone else have thoughts on the Judges comments?

I read it the same way as you did, because the domestic violence was mentioned separately in the next sentence, as ‘an’ incident rather than an ongoing issue. Although it would be useful to know the exact wording the judge used.

The couple went on to have three more children, but all four were taken into care after a judge concluded that their living arrangements fell “well below” what a reasonable parent would be expected to provide and noted an incident of domestic violence between the parents, the court heard.

 

[Kye Zeeb]

...She admitted under cross examination that the trust were buying her a house in early 2017 (child ff was born late 2017) but she refused to sign the sale contracts at the last minute. At the time she claimed her backing out was because of her "career progression", but in court she said it was because she wanted to live in the countryside...



...It reminds me of a family member of mine who was diagnosed with oppositional defiance disorder. Behavior and personality disorders aren't mental illnesses though - some people just behave in ways that make their lives harder, while blaming everyone else for whatever happens.

Snipped for focus.
1. I suspect that there could have been conditions attached by the Trust/family to the purchase of a house. For example, the ending of the relationship with MG could have been a condition of CM being bought a house. JMO

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