UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #7

[guiser]

But if the parent/s didn't know where they were living what help could social services offer?
Even if Hoares knew where they were, they wouldn't be allowed to disclose it.

In the end, we don't know why investigators were engaged. It might have been completely over the top or it might have been a desperate attempt to locate and protect an unstable mum and her children.

 

[Nikynoo]

But if the parent/s didn't know where they were living what help could social services offer?
Even if Hoares knew where they were, they wouldn't be allowed to disclose it.

In the end, we don't know why investigators were engaged. It might have been completely over the top or it might have been a desperate attempt to locate and protect an unstable mum and her children.

I can understand her mum making enquiries and it seems those enquiries lead to Wales and subsequent assistance from the mother and her husband. It would appear that after that date, her mother did not engage PIs again, it was her father (who she had been estranged from for some time). Now, why would HE do this?

 

[Maryanna]

The Hoare Trust had a way of contacting CM and in fact tried to contact her after the fifth January. I would imagine that CMs relationship with the contact at the Hoare Trust was long standing as there appeared to be (from the evidence submitted) much emailing back and forth re requests for additional funds and/or increase to the monthly payments.

It is clear that the relationship with her father had broken down. CM has testified that she decided to cut all ties with a family member when she met MG. IMO that family member was her father. Doesn’t she have a right to not have that relationship with him or any other family member if she doesn’t want to?

Hoare Trust - the Anglo-Catholic religious charity that's connected with the Society of the Faith?

The trust I've read about in connection with CM is the Sturt Trust (her father's maternal grandfather was Captain Napier Sturt, the 3rd Baron Alington), from which CM received a payment transferred by Hoares bank. My guess would be that Hoares manage the trust, because they manage a lot of upper-crust family money on a scale of centuries.

 

[Maryanna]

But if the parent/s didn't know where they were living what help could social services offer?
Even if Hoares knew where they were, they wouldn't be allowed to disclose it.

In the end, we don't know why investigators were engaged. It might have been completely over the top or it might have been a desperate attempt to locate and protect an unstable mum and her children.

"If the parent/s didn't know where they were living what help could social services offer?"

Perhaps CM and MG were in touch with social services but not with CM's parents.

 

[Maryanna]

When has the case been adjourned to?

 

[Nikynoo]

Hoare Trust - the Anglo-Catholic religious charity that's connected with the Society of the Faith?

The trust I've read about in connection with CM is the Sturt Trust (her father's maternal grandfather was Captain Napier Sturt, the 3rd Baron Alington), from which CM received a payment transferred by Hoares bank. My guess would be that Hoares manage the trust, because they manage a lot of upper-crust family money on a scale of centuries.

That’s it, thank you for rectifying.

In respect to the instructions of PIs. MG would have been reporting in respect of the SO register, monthly if at a settled address and weekly if he did not. IMO a quicker resolution would have been to report CM missing to police if her father was that concerned.

 

[Nikynoo]

But if the parent/s didn't know where they were living what help could social services offer?
Even if Hoares knew where they were, they wouldn't be allowed to disclose it.

In the end, we don't know why investigators were engaged. It might have been completely over the top or it might have been a desperate attempt to locate and protect an unstable mum and her children.

Police would be the first port of call, not PIs

 

[bobbymkii]

When has the case been adjourned to?

I'm not sure they even know themselves! All I was able to gather from the podcast is that summing up will be finished "at some point next week"

 

[guiser]

Police would be the first port of call, not PIs

Look at the number of unresolved cases on this site who have been reported to the police as missing persons and you may understand why someone with the means to do so might resort to other options.

 

[Nikynoo]

Look at the number of unresolved cases on this site who have been reported to the police as missing persons and you may understand why someone with the means to do so might resort to other options.

But you forget that MG would be signing the SO Register. Quite easy for the police to track imo.

 

[Telltale]

But you forget that MG would be signing the SO Register. Quite easy for the police to track imo.

Do we know know that? Or is it assumed he was compliant.

Redirect Notice

Redirect Notice

Also there's a wide range in how often SOR members have to sign in. Can be annually. Technically they have to inform about challenges of address but IDK how robustly that's enforced it how it works if someone is technically homeless.

 

[Nikynoo]

Do we know know that? Or is it assumed he was compliant.

Redirect Notice

Redirect Notice

Also there's a wide range in how often SOR members have to sign in. Can be annually. Technically they have to inform about challenges of address but IDK how robustly that's enforced it how it works if someone is technically homeless.

Well, we know that he was signing in weekly in December (sheffield and Leeds as per reporting) as they had no fixed abode. My understanding is, that the requirements are weekly if you have no permanent address and monthly if you do.

In addition, we know that MG was not compliant after 5th January (again vague reporting about non attendance at court for another matter, that needed to be resolved before this trial started but see this link Constance Marten’s partner Mark Gordon refuses to appear in court ).

 

[guiser]

Well, we know that he was signing in weekly in December (sheffield and Leeds as per reporting) as they had no fixed abode. My understanding is, that the requirements are weekly if you have no permanent address and monthly if you do.

In addition, we know that MG was not compliant after 5th January (again vague reporting about non attendance at court for another matter, that needed to be resolved before this trial started but see this link Constance Marten’s partner Mark Gordon refuses to appear in court ).

But we don't know if he was complying at the time the PIs were involved.

 

[jackal67]

Yes. It shouldn't be assumed that the hiring of PIs was principally to do with a concern for child welfare. I was going to say the answer to "Why the PIs?" was probably "money", but held back for fear of being thought flippant. But it probably was (IMO).

Had either parent given oral testimony, one of the most obvious questions to ask would have been "Why did you sicc a PI onto your daughter?"

<modsnip - not victim friendy>

But the money CM got came from a trust fund set up by a grandparent I believe. The parents would not have any say in that? If her parents had also been giving her money well that was up to them . Doubtful they were though if they didnt know where she was?
Strange that some of you dont believe that her parents were genuinely worried about their daughter and grandchildren?

 

[jackal67]

That’s it, thank you for rectifying.

In respect to the instructions of PIs. MG would have been reporting in respect of the SO register, monthly if at a settled address and weekly if he did not. IMO a quicker resolution would have been to report CM missing to police if her father was that concerned.

But would the police have acted upon this as a missing person report without good reason? As CM was an adult ?

 

[jackal67]

But you forget that MG would be signing the SO Register. Quite easy for the police to track imo.

Yes but they would not divulge his whereabouts to CMs parents

 

[kittythehare]

That’s it, thank you for rectifying.

In respect to the instructions of PIs. MG would have been reporting in respect of the SO register, monthly if at a settled address and weekly if he did not. IMO a quicker resolution would have been to report CM missing to police if her father was that concerned.

would he have been reporting as an RSO 40 years after the crime?

EDIT
I apologise, I had missed this

Constance Marten’s partner Mark Gordon refuses to appear in court

The partner of an aristocrat accused of the manslaughter of their baby refused to appear in court.

www.theargus.co.uk

 

[kittythehare]

Look at the number of unresolved cases on this site who have been reported to the police as missing persons and you may understand why someone with the means to do so might resort to other options.

It's called a welfare check.
It is common practice.
Police make direct contact with local police in area and they visit subjects and literally check upon their welfare.
They do not disclose their address to concerned person.
It would not be appropriate or honest to report them as 'missing' without evidence.

 

[kittythehare]

But would the police have acted upon this as a missing person report without good reason? As CM was an adult ?

No way.
IMO

 

[jackal67]

It's called a welfare check.
It is common practice.
Police make direct contact with local police in area and they visit subjects and literally check upon their welfare.
They do not disclose their address to concerned person.
It would not be appropriate or honest to report them as 'missing' without evidence.

Yes but if CMs parents had no idea of her whereabouts which local police would be contacted to conduct the welfare check?