UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon & Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #2 *Arrest*

[rightsaidfred]

Apologies if you this is a stupid question, but why the Middle East?

CM did a degree in Arabic, so if they were going to a non-English speaking country that would be an obvious destination.

IANAL but I think the Hague Convention may be relevant here, and the nearest non-signatory countries are in the Middle East & North Africa

My feeling (as I’ve mentioned much, much further up the thread) is that they may have had other children taken into care and believed their new baby would also be taken. However I think it’s possible that the order hadn’t yet been given (possibly no decision is made prior to the birth; I don’t know how it works), and so their leaving wouldn’t legally be child abduction.

As linked to above, it's not possible to get a care order before the baby is born 2.2.1 Safeguarding Unborn and Newborn Babies

I don't know, however, if it's possible to get a care order on a baby of uncertain birthdate, sex and location. That could have happened already without it being public knowledge.

I should say, though, that apart from an oblique reference in CM’s mother’s open letter I don’t believe there has ever been any confirmation of any children of theirs being taken into care, past present or future.

There's no formal confirmation, but given
- oblique references in her mother's letter
- the pictures of 3 babies that look like they're CM & MG's on her facebook profile, but they're never together and never pictured as older than young toddlers
- we know those children aren't with her now because they're not mentioned in the appeals
- she likes a couple of facebook pages with names like 'social services exposed'
... it's not exactly a wild and unfounded theory

 

[kittythehare]

Rather to my shock, I discovered this isn't true during an incredibly messy break up. An ex of mine walked out, left me with a flat I couldn't afford by myself, managed to get a joint bank account (which we used for rent and bills) frozen so I had no way of paying the rent, all without going anywhere near the courts. Contrary to this link the bank didn't check with me first and nor was there any attempt to discuss how regular bills were going to be paid.
Joint bank accounts: what happens if you split up? - Rest Less

We run the risk of digressing at this point, but in summary it's alarmingly easy to get a joint bank account frozen.

We have no idea how CM's finances are organised though, beyond there being a trust fund. As she was in her late 20s when she became estranged she was past the ages where trust funds are typically restricted (18/21/25) and it seems unlikely (though possible) that she had a joint bank account with other family members

If there had been any bank activity she would have been caught by now. police stated she had large sums of cash.. probably all withdrawn in the lead up to the flight to somewhere.

 

[kittythehare]

CM did a degree in Arabic, so if they were going to a non-English speaking country that would be an obvious destination.

IANAL but I think the Hague Convention may be relevant here, and the nearest non-signatory countries are in the Middle East & North Africa



As linked to above, it's not possible to get a care order before the baby is born 2.2.1 Safeguarding Unborn and Newborn Babies

I don't know, however, if it's possible to get a care order on a baby of uncertain birthdate, sex and location. That could have happened already without it being public knowledge.



There's no formal confirmation, but given
- oblique references in her mother's letter
- the pictures of 3 babies that look like they're CM & MG's on her facebook profile, but they're never together and never pictured as older than young toddlers
- we know those children aren't with her now because they're not mentioned in the appeals
- she likes a couple of facebook pages with names like 'social services exposed'
... it's not exactly a wild and unfounded theory

Well it's certainly not possible to instigate any actions if nobody knew she was pregnant as seems the case.

 

[QB2022]

Apologies if you this is a stupid question, but why the Middle East?

My feeling (as I’ve mentioned much, much further up the thread) is that they may have had other children taken into care and believed their new baby would also be taken. However I think it’s possible that the order hadn’t yet been given (possibly no decision is made prior to the birth; I don’t know how it works), and so their leaving wouldn’t legally be child abduction.

I should say, though, that apart from an oblique reference in CM’s mother’s open letter I don’t believe there has ever been any confirmation of any children of theirs being taken into care, past present or future.

Either way it does seems as though their flight was to keep the baby away from someone, be it the state, family or some other 3rd party

Many middle East countries won't support our approaches/co-operate with requests to find them and return on these grounds.

 

[StillDiggin]

Constance Marten’s father tells police to probe cult – live

Ms Marten spent several months at the Church of All Nations in Lagos, father says

www.independent.co.uk

 

[dotr]

Constance Marten’s father’s statement in full as he calls for probe into cult abuse

‘The stories of the abuse are shocking and heart-rending’

www.independent.co.uk

''Here is his statement in full:
“I remain deeply concerned for Constance, some five weeks after she and her baby went on the run. I just want them to be safe. I urge Constance once more, to find the courage to turn herself into the police.

“Following the latest revelation in The Independent about how Constance was influenced by a Nigerian cult leader and suffered severely as a result, I am compelled to say that this substantiates long-held suspicions had since she returned from Lagos. Constance’s time there at the hands of the so-called Rev. TB Joshua was bizarre and damaging in the extreme. I am appalled that she should have been there for five, maybe six months when there were opportunities for her to have escaped.

“The stories of the abuse meted out by Joshua are shocking and heart-rending. I sincerely hope the police can now investigate potential links between any institution involved in making Constance and others suffer at the hands of the phoney prophet in his Lagos Synagogue.

“These experiences appear to have been a trigger in so much of what has happened to harm Constance in recent years, setting up a pattern of behaviour exposing her to easy manipulation. I cannot begin to comprehend the trauma to which Constance and others have been subjected. My heart goes out to her and them.

“I am grateful to the police for their continued efforts to locate Constance and her baby, and for following all avenues of inquiry. The only urgency is to know she and the baby are safe.I have been so touched by the hundreds of messages of support and want to thank everyone for their great kindness.”

 

[dotr]

Sorry , 2 posts in a row and possibly repeats.

Missing aristocrat’s father calls for inquiry into cult where she was ‘brainwashed’

Fresh appeal by Napier Marten after Independent revelations over missing Constance

www.independent.co.uk

''In a fresh appeal, Napier Marten has urged officers to probe Constance Marten’s time at the Synagogue, Church of All Nations in Lagos, where she lived for six months under the rule of TB Joshua, a “phoney prophet” who is alleged to have abused his “disciples”.

Mr Marten’s new plea came after The Independent spoke to a former member of the church who claims that those who lived at the church were damaged by the experience. It was claimed that:

Ms Marten was forced to eat the leftovers of the church’s “prophet” and controversial leader, TB Joshua

• “Disciples” were forced to sleep in rooms with lights on and were routinely punished for breaking “rules”, including talking about men of God other than TB Joshua
• Ms Marten was placed in social exile – the customary punishment for disciples who were not “focused enough” on the church leader
• After leaving the church, Ms Marten spoke about experiencing paranormal activity which became “quite scary”
• She was left “confused and traumatised” and spent time “trying to get her head around what happened to her” in Lagos''

2021

From Lagos to Winchester: how a divisive Nigerian pastor built a global following

The long read: I first encountered TB Joshua as a teenager, when his preaching captivated my evangelical Christian community in Hampshire. Many of my friends became his ardent disciples and followed him to Lagos. How did he have such a hold over people?

www.theguardian.com

''What made Joshua unique was not just his international reach, but the intensity of devotion he inspired in his disciples. They called him “Daddy”, kneeling at his feet when greeting him in his office. They accompanied him on international crusades and philanthropic trips. As well as intensive church duties, they spent long hours memorising hundreds of pages of his teachings, known as Quotable Quotes, which they believed to be the word of God. They lived in dormitories within the church complex. Many of his international disciples came from comfortable, middle-class backgrounds. In following TB Joshua, some had cut themselves off from friends and family, foregoing marriage, education and conventional careers.

“Daddy,” said a senior disciple from Senegal at the funeral, “it was divine destiny that brought all of us to you. We came from different nations, from different backgrounds, with different hearts: unlikely people indeed … ”

A service at the Synagogue, Church of All Nations, with pastor TB Joshua and his associates. Photograph: David Levene/The Guardian

 

[wizardizzo76]

CM did a degree in Arabic, so if they were going to a non-English speaking country that would be an obvious destination.

According to her linkedin she is as good as french

 

[JuicyLucy]

• After leaving the church, Ms Marten spoke about experiencing paranormal activity which became “quite scary”
• She was left “confused and traumatised” and spent time “trying to get her head around what happened to her” in Lagos''

Poor woman, she's obviously very vulnerable. I wonder how she's coped with the postnatal hormone crash and the general sense of paranoia that must go along with being on the run. I hope MG genuinely cares about her and is taking care of her, as far as the constraints of their situation allow. The CCTV images we've seen of her trudging along with the baby several feet behind him really emphasise the exhaustion she must be feeling. The baby has (rightly) been the main focus of concern, but I really hope when/if they are found that CM will get some really robust mental health care and long-term support.

 

[Amaz0nia]

Poor woman, she's obviously very vulnerable. I wonder how she's coped with the postnatal hormone crash and the general sense of paranoia that must go along with being on the run. I hope MG genuinely cares about her and is taking care of her, as far as the constraints of their situation allow. The CCTV images we've seen of her trudging along with the baby several feet behind him really emphasise the exhaustion she must be feeling. The baby has (rightly) been the main focus of concern, but I really hope when/if they are found that CM will get some really robust mental health care and long-term support.

I agree. i also now wonder if MG was into this Nigerian preacher as well-he had many years & a lot of time to kill in jail - maybe that was the attraction to each other, ie both being brainwashed by this ‘cult’ but im not sure that by being on the run is taking care of CM & baby though..

 

[wizardizzo76]

I agree. i also now wonder if MG was into this Nigerian preacher as well-he had many years & a lot of time to kill in jail - maybe that was the attraction to each other, ie both being brainwashed by this ‘cult’ but im not sure that by being on the run is taking care of CM & baby though..

I wondered this, and in the (unmentionable and forbidden) searches I've done of family, came to the conclusion it was a possibility (I know no one in my family would join a religious cult, for example. We are all very muc atheist). I wondered whether Joshua Ministries could be prevalent in US prisons, and found evidence that various pastors were in fact recruiting in US prisons.

My main reservation with this theory is that it sounded like CM was wanting to whistle-blow. Perhaps when she returned to the UK she had a spiritual "absence" in her life and found something some way to fill that void, irrespective of the Ministeries. I know a lot of people become evangelical in prison, especially when they are young and impressionable.

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

A missing couple and their baby could be "absolutely anywhere in the UK", the Metropolitan Police has said.

Constance Marten, her partner Mark Gordon, 48 - a convicted sex offender - and their baby have been missing for more than six weeks.

Their car was found on fire near Bolton on 5 January, and it is believed Ms Marten gave birth either in or near the car a day or two earlier.

Detectives have made a renewed appeal to find the couple and their baby.
Ms Marten, 35, and her baby are not thought to have received medical attention.

The family were last seen on 8 January walking along Cantercrow Hill, in Newhaven - but police say considering the time that has passed they could have moved some considerable distance since then.

Det Supt Lewis Basford said the force had been "working around the clock behind the scenes" and had viewed more than 660 hours of CCTV.

Missing family could be anywhere in UK, say police - BBC News

Police say they have a "genuine concern" for the health and wellbeing of the baby.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[StillDiggin]

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: Missing aristocrat and boyfriend's cash 'will be coming to an end' - as new CCTV released

It has been more than six weeks since police found the car that Constance Marten and Mark Gordon were believed to be travelling in. Police released two new clips of CCTV from 8 January, the last location the pair were sighted at.

news.sky.com

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

A senior midwife has issued an appeal to missing Constance Marten, the aristocrat who vanished more than a month ago with her convicted sex offender boyfriend and their newborn baby.

[...]

Shereen Nimmo, director of midwifery for Barts Health NHS Trust, said: “Constance, my name is Shereen and I’m here to speak to you as a midwife and a mother. I am not here to judge you but here to help you and your baby.

“I know that you really love your baby, and I know what an exciting and worrying time being a mum can be. And I want to make sure that you and your baby are OK and get the care you need.

“After you have a baby, midwives are there to check you are recovering physically and emotionally and adjusting to caring for your newborn.

“We check your baby is feeding properly and putting on weight, and they have screening tests to make sure their heart, hearing, hips and eyesight all look OK.

“We also check for some rare conditions and put care plans in place to support them if needed.

“But it’s not too late to have these checks done and to make sure your baby is healthy.

“You’re putting your baby at risk by not accessing medical care, so it’s really important that you come and see a midwife, doctor or another healthcare professional as soon as possible.

“Babies need a safe, warm environment and all new mums are given information about safe sleeping for their baby to prevent sudden infant death syndrome.

“We know the safest place for your baby to sleep is in a cot in the same room as you. Sleeping with your baby in an unsafe environment puts them at risk.

“We’re worried that without access to midwifery and medical care, your baby might not be getting the best start in life that we know you want for them.

“Please do the right thing for your baby and go to your nearest healthcare facility so my caring colleagues can take care of you and your baby. All we want to do is help you.”

[...]

It is unknown if the baby was full-term or has any health issues, which is why officers want to find the family.

[...]

Fresh appeal to trace aristocrat missing with baby and sex offender boyfriend

A senior midwife has issued an appeal to missing Constance Marten, the aristocrat who vanished more than a month ago with her convicted sex offender…

www.theboltonnews.co.uk

 

[dotr]

Although CM's parents have each reached out to her via the media essentially stating that they would welcome CM and the baby, but my guess is that Cm would rather they indicated that MG would be welcome first.
Some may even feel that CM's desire to keep her partner, overrides other concerns, imo, speculation.

Constance cops widen search for missing mum and her newborn baby

POLICE have released new CCTV of missing mum Constance Marten and her partner. The cops today put out a fresh appeal, pleading with the public to report any sightings of the pair – who have b…

www.thesun.co.uk

''In recent weeks Constance's mum begged for her to come home in a heartbreaking letter.''

''Police have today announced they are extending their search as Costance and Gordon could have moved a "considerable distance" since then''.

''Mr Basford added that the £10,000 reward was still on the table.

He continued: "Please be mindful that they might not always be out and about together.

"It could be that you just see Constance or Mark out by themselves getting supplies while the other is wherever they are staying with the baby.''

 

[Nikynoo]

Although CM's parents have each reached out to her via the media, stating that essentially they would welcome CM and the baby, but my guess is that Cm would rather they indicated that MG would be welcome first.
Some may even feel that CM's desire to keep her partner, overrides other concerns, imo, speculation.

Constance cops widen search for missing mum and her newborn baby

POLICE have released new CCTV of missing mum Constance Marten and her partner. The cops today put out a fresh appeal, pleading with the public to report any sightings of the pair – who have b…

www.thesun.co.uk

''In recent weeks Constance's mum begged for her to come home in a heartbreaking letter.''

''Police have today announced they are extending their search as Costance and Gordon could have moved a "considerable distance" since then''.

''Mr Basford added that the £10,000 reward was still on the table.

He continued: "Please be mindful that they might not always be out and about together.

"It could be that you just see Constance or Mark out by themselves getting supplies while the other is wherever they are staying with the baby.''
View attachment 404477

I'm not sure what to make of this case. IMO coersive control is not an issue here. From the photos I have seen in the media they seem to be on an equal footing. For example, in the above pic, C seems to be taking the lead.

This case has me scratching my head. There must be a reason that they want sight of C and the baby - I wonder if there are family court proceedings in place, hence the vagueness around the concerns.

 

[shadwell]

I'm not sure what to make of this case. IMO coersive control is not an issue here. From the photos I have seen in the media they seem to be on an equal footing. For example, in the above pic, C seems to be taking the lead.

This case has me scratching my head. There must be a reason that they want sight of C and the baby - I wonder if there are family court proceedings in place, hence the vagueness around the concerns.

Who knows - looks to be getting another media ‘bump’ with the end of the NB case. Maybe the baby’s father is prince William.

 

[OceanElix]

I'm not sure what to make of this case. IMO coersive control is not an issue here. From the photos I have seen in the media they seem to be on an equal footing. For example, in the above pic, C seems to be taking the lead.

This case has me scratching my head. There must be a reason that they want sight of C and the baby - I wonder if there are family court proceedings in place, hence the vagueness around the concerns.

Can you really make that assumption from a few cctv stills? If coercive control is a feature of this relationship, she may be petrified to even consider running away whether walking behind, beside or in front plus she's just given birth, hardly likely to be able to sprint off at speed or there may be the worry of harm to little one if she did.


The midwife statement is patronising. I really cannot imagine that making the slightest difference in encouraging the family to come forward and seek medical help.

A very sad case, I do worry about the mental health of CM. Personally I found it tough in those early days and my circumstances were not nearly as stressful as hers. I hope they are safe jmo.

 

[Obergine]

Can you really make that assumption from a few cctv stills? If coercive control is a feature of this relationship, she may be petrified to even consider running away whether walking behind, beside or in front plus she's just given birth, hardly likely to be able to sprint off at speed or there may be the worry of harm to little one if she did.


The midwife statement is patronising. I really cannot imagine that making the slightest difference in encouraging the family to come forward and seek medical help.

A very sad case, I do worry about the mental health of CM. Personally I found it tough in those early days and my circumstances were not nearly as stressful as hers. I hope they are safe jmo.

I think the midwife statement is desperation - seems they don't have any leads...!

 

[rockthecasbah]

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: Missing aristocrat and boyfriend's cash 'will be coming to an end' - as new CCTV released

It has been more than six weeks since police found the car that Constance Marten and Mark Gordon were believed to be travelling in. Police released two new clips of CCTV from 8 January, the last location the pair were sighted at.

news.sky.com

Doesn't look like baby is there at all in petrol station pic, both have their hands full of big bags