UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon & Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #2 *Arrest*

[rockthecasbah]

Does cm have other children? I've tried finding out but can't find anything!!

Pictures on Facebook and in the press photos she is holding an older baby on a station platform

 

[Maltesepuppy]

I agree. I know the midwives mean well and do important work but it’s going to sound like a lot of condescension to someone who is rejecting “the system” right now and can’t see it having the desired result.

CM is not stupid as you say and will be well aware of what a midwife would be encouraging from her with a small baby if she were following society’s conventions right now. I think a simple: “we think you’ve been sleeping outdoors so please go to any hospital and get the little one checked out, that’s the priority,” would work better than everything on a checklist for the first few months being put into a statement.

I wonder if the message is directed more to the public or to someone who may be potentially helping them as a way to convince people to come forward.

 

[Obergine]

The timeline of their movements around Newhaven are very odd. The footage from the garage shows them coming from the opposite direction to where they would have first reached the garage if they had walked along Avis Way from where they were dropped off. They then cross the road, towards Avis Way. Next, they were seen sheltering under a bridge near the original drop off point at 6. Then they must have headed back to the road where the garage is to ultimately head up to the Downs. Why the big loop?

 

[Earthwindfire]

I think the midwives statement is Ill judged . FWIW, I don't think it's a judgment on cosleeping - more a judgment on sleeping with a baby in a tent! Cosleeping really isn't that 'hippy dippy' - it's pretty main stream IMO are there are safe cosleeping guidelines. Clearly they don't include sleeping in a tent in winter!

 

[Lolabear]

Pictures on Facebook and in the press photos she is holding an older baby on a station platform

Yes I did see that but I recall it saying somewhere that was a nice or nephew

 

[dotr]

''Feb 21, 2023
Police released a new CCTV in the search for Constance Marten, 35, and her partner Mark Gordon, 48, who have been travelling around the UK by taxi since their car was found burning on the M61 in Bolton, Greater Manchester, on 5 January. Authorities believe the couple have been sleeping rough in a blue tent, and fear for the safety of the baby who has not had any medical attention since birth in early January.''

 

[ifindedout]

Doesn't look like baby is there at all in petrol station pic, both have their hands full of big bags

Looks like she is wearing a baby sling.

 

[rightsaidfred]

Thank you for your comprehensive response. I am aware of what CC is and have been keeping an eye on this case through this thread and media reports.

IMO - MG is not the issue here and I base this on the fact that there has been no concern raised by her family in relation to this relationship. Press reports have not given any indication that MG has re-offended or that C is at risk from MG.

What has come to light is the involvement of the Nigerian cult/sect, as revealed by her father and a 'friend' and reported here - Aristocrat mother on the run was ‘brainwashed’ by Nigerian preacher, friend claims. The friend in this reports that C was never the same after returning from Nigeria. The return from Nigeria was well before meeting MG.

IMO - MH issues (from time with the sect/cult/church in Nigeria) and perhaps life choices are the reasons why there is concern for the child.

You mention previous children - are they all assumed to be fathered by MG?

ETA - to make language more concise.

We very much have to read between the lines. Her family appear to have carefully avoided criticism of MG, while making absolutely zero commitment to help him in any way, but explicitly saying they want to help CM and the baby. I doubt that public criticism of MG would encourage her to make contact.

For example, the letter from her mother (no doubt carefully crafted; she's a psychotherapist): Mother of UK woman missing with newborn baby issues open letter

While the Nigerian church was prior to MG, her father says "He said that the experience [in Nigeria] appears to have been a “trigger” in what has happened to Ms Marten, saying it set up “a pattern of behaviour exposing her to easy manipulation”" which could easily be interpreted as referring to her relationship with MG.

Missing aristocrat’s father calls for inquiry into cult where she was ‘brainwashed’

The family are clearly less than impressed by MG's background
"Mr Marten, 63, told The Independent he had known about Gordon’s criminal conviction for some time and it was of “great concern”."
Who is Napier Marten? Father who made emotional appeal for daughter missing with baby

Does cm have other children? I've tried finding out but can't find anything!!

Yes I did see that but I recall it saying somewhere that was a nice or nephew

Her FB has an album of three children, who all appear to be hers and MG's, with the title 'my love sprogs', which would be an odd way to refer to your nieces and nephews. I've never heard suggestions they're nieces and nephews. She also likes pages like 'social services exposed' and the children clearly aren't with her at the moment.

Log into Facebook

I doubt that CM has any level of trust whatsoever in the authorities when they talk about keeping her baby safe; she will have heard that language before and it's been a precursor to having her child removed.

 

[Lolabear]

We very much have to read between the lines. Her family appear to have carefully avoided criticism of MG, while making absolutely zero commitment to help him in any way, but explicitly saying they want to help CM and the baby. I doubt that public criticism of MG would encourage her to make contact.

For example, the letter from her mother (no doubt carefully crafted; she's a psychotherapist): Mother of UK woman missing with newborn baby issues open letter

While the Nigerian church was prior to MG, her father says "He said that the experience [in Nigeria] appears to have been a “trigger” in what has happened to Ms Marten, saying it set up “a pattern of behaviour exposing her to easy manipulation”" which could easily be interpreted as referring to her relationship with MG.

Missing aristocrat’s father calls for inquiry into cult where she was ‘brainwashed’

The family are clearly less than impressed by MG's background
"Mr Marten, 63, told The Independent he had known about Gordon’s criminal conviction for some time and it was of “great concern”."
Who is Napier Marten? Father who made emotional appeal for daughter missing with baby





Her FB has an album of three children, who all appear to be hers and MG's, with the title 'my love sprogs', which would be an odd way to refer to your nieces and nephews. I've never heard suggestions they're nieces and nephews. She also likes pages like 'social services exposed' and the children clearly aren't with her at the moment.

Log into Facebook

I doubt that CM has any level of trust whatsoever in the authorities when they talk about keeping her baby safe; she will have heard that language before and it's been a precursor to having her child removed.

Ah I was looking on FB for cm rather than toots! Yes they appear to be her children. Wonder who has them or if they are in care. Poor mites

 

[rightsaidfred]

UK social services are normally very keen to place children in 'kinship placements' - that is, with the extended family. Efforts will have been made to place them with CM's mother, father, siblings or other extended family (it appears MG's family are all in the US, but if not, his would be looked at too).

Partly this is because it's cheaper, partly it's because it's viewed as providing better outcomes for the children.

Only if no one in the family is suitable, able and willing will the children be placed into foster care or adopted. The most likely outcome for the prior children would be adoption rather than long term foster care, as they appear to have been quite young at the point of removal.

I hope they are together, safe and happy, wherever they are.

 

[badgersmythe]

Fears for missing couple's baby nearly 50 days after last sighting

Tomorrow marks the 50th day since the last sighting of the trio. Fifty days in which Constance Marten, her partner Mark Gordon and their child have seemingly vanished into thin air.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[rockthecasbah]

Fears for missing couple's baby nearly 50 days after last sighting

Tomorrow marks the 50th day since the last sighting of the trio. Fifty days in which Constance Marten, her partner Mark Gordon and their child have seemingly vanished into thin air.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Very interesting. Avoiding taxis with cameras could explain why it took them so long to get one in Whitechapel as lots of London taxis will have them.

 

[Maltesepuppy]

Fears for missing couple's baby nearly 50 days after last sighting

Tomorrow marks the 50th day since the last sighting of the trio. Fifty days in which Constance Marten, her partner Mark Gordon and their child have seemingly vanished into thin air.

www.dailymail.co.uk

That's really interesting and clears a few things too. MOO is that even if they had withdrawn £15,000 this would not be enough for them to be smuggled out. Plus it would have depleted their money and they would have been abroad with no money.
However somewhere between £ 5,000 or £15,000 is still a lot of money for someone living off grid if theyarecamping. I guess the biggest expense has been the taxis but even then I would say they have plenty to keep going.

 

[ScalableHeights]

Fears for missing couple's baby nearly 50 days after last sighting

Tomorrow marks the 50th day since the last sighting of the trio. Fifty days in which Constance Marten, her partner Mark Gordon and their child have seemingly vanished into thin air.

www.dailymail.co.uk

That’s fascinating, thanks for sharing. Definitely seems to confirm a lot of stuff we’ve previously suspected but I don’t think we knew for sure.

Two things occurred to me while reading it (well more than two but I won’t list them all). They called asking taxi drivers if they had cameras in their cabs “paranoid” but given they’re literally being hunted by the police it seems to have been quite shrewd.

Secondly, the amount of detail LE goes into here is astonishing. I very much get the impression they’ve now exhausted all possible leads and have absolutely nothing left. It’s missing persons rather than criminal so they’ve got nothing left to lose or case to jeopardise by just putting everything (it seems like) out there in the public domain. Together with the appeal I think they’re just totally desperate now.

I think this is likely the last major thing we’ll hear about this now - unless they turn up (although maybe not even then). It will stay an active investigation for a little longer to chase any last leads that come in from this and the reward and then I think it will go quietly onto the back burner.

Is there any significance in giving this exclusive to the DM rather than say The Sun? They say they think they may be getting help from an anti-authority, anti-police third party. I wouldn’t have said the Daily Mail would be an anti-authoritarian’s newspaper of choice…

 

[Nikynoo]

That’s fascinating, thanks for sharing. Definitely seems to confirm a lot of stuff we’ve previously suspected but I don’t think we knew for sure.

Two things occurred to me while reading it (well more than two but I won’t list them all). They called asking taxi drivers if they had cameras in their cabs “paranoid” but given they’re literally being hunted by the police it seems to have been quite shrewd.

Secondly, the amount of detail LE goes into here is astonishing. I very much get the impression they’ve now exhausted all possible leads and have absolutely nothing left. It’s missing persons rather than criminal so they’ve got nothing left to lose or case to jeopardise by just putting everything (it seems like) out there in the public domain. Together with the appeal I think they’re just totally desperate now.

I think this is likely the last major thing we’ll hear about this now - unless they turn up (although maybe not even then). It will stay an active investigation for a little longer to chase any last leads that come in from this and the reward and then I think it will go quietly onto the back burner.

Is there any significance in giving this exclusive to the DM rather than say The Sun? They say they think they may be getting help from an anti-authority, anti-police third party. I wouldn’t have said the Daily Mail would be an anti-authoritarian’s newspaper of choice…

A question. IF other children have been removed, would the local authority children services apply to the family court for removal of this child also? And if so, and the court granted that removal order, would it then become a criminal case? Or do the parents have to be served with the order for it to be effective?
IF previous children have been removed and the family court is involved, then the police have not released everything.

I suspect some (including me) are reading between the lines and coming to conclusions that may be incorrect about the entire story.

I know that the detail of family proceedings cannot be reported but surely if there are proceedings in place then the police can say that they are? This may make it more likely that someone may come forward with information that can locate them.

Neither family nor crime is my area of law.

ETA I note that the police included Mark by name in the concern for welfare, so perhaps there is a slight change in strategy.

 

[Earthwindfire]

That’s fascinating, thanks for sharing. Definitely seems to confirm a lot of stuff we’ve previously suspected but I don’t think we knew for sure.

Two things occurred to me while reading it (well more than two but I won’t list them all). They called asking taxi drivers if they had cameras in their cabs “paranoid” but given they’re literally being hunted by the police it seems to have been quite shrewd.

Secondly, the amount of detail LE goes into here is astonishing. I very much get the impression they’ve now exhausted all possible leads and have absolutely nothing left. It’s missing persons rather than criminal so they’ve got nothing left to lose or case to jeopardise by just putting everything (it seems like) out there in the public domain. Together with the appeal I think they’re just totally desperate now.

I think this is likely the last major thing we’ll hear about this now - unless they turn up (although maybe not even then). It will stay an active investigation for a little longer to chase any last leads that come in from this and the reward and then I think it will go quietly onto the back burner.

Is there any significance in giving this exclusive to the DM rather than say The Sun? They say they think they may be getting help from an anti-authority, anti-police third party. I wouldn’t have said the Daily Mail would be an anti-authoritarian’s newspaper of choice…

My understanding is that it would be a criminal investigation if there is a court order and they have gone abroad, but not if there are just missing in the U.K.

 

[dotr]

Smack in the middle of reading this excellent non-fiction book and cannot help but wonder if CM and MG have hidden themselves with people in the underpasses of London? speculation, fwiw.

This Is London by Ben Judah review – the truth about a capital city utterly transformed

Nearly 40% of Londoners were born abroad – the city’s variety and its divisions are uncovered in this epic work of reportage

www.theguardian.com

''Ben Judah’s epic account of contemporary London is similarly motivated by a desire to show our capital in its true (new) colours: as a megacity of global migrants, some of them rich, most of them poor, few of them happy with their lot. Knightsbridge gets a chapter and so does Mayfair’s Berkeley Square, but it’s the people and places further out that really interest him – the Poles, Somalis, Afghans and Ghanaians in areas such as Beckton, Ilford, Edmonton, Catford and Harlesden. The ethnic majority, in other words: the 55% of London’s population that isn’t white British.

“I have to see everything for myself,” he tells us at the outset, “I don’t trust statistics.” An early chapter finds him dressed as a beggar and, Orwell-like, bedding down with 16 Roma in an underpass by Hyde Park. His companions complain long into the night: about the cold, the damp, the debt enforcers, the rich Arabs “coming in and out of the golden places” who give them nothing. They also complain about the police, so Judah takes himself off to Frontline Peckham – Peck’Nam as it’s called – to hear the story from the other side. With his mournful talk of the vanishing English and the rise of ghettos, the policeman he interviews might pass for a member of the BNP. But he is Nigerian, and the story of how he got to be where he is makes compelling reading.''

this is london - Google Search

 

[rightsaidfred]

Having led what's described as an insular existence since 2016, I doubt they're going to suddenly start hiding with others in London underpasses - not when there's police looking for them and a £10k reward. The baby makes them far too conspicuous, and the reward is going to motivate someone living in absolute poverty.

If they are still in the UK, my bet is they've gone back to London, which is where they were both living beforehand. They could be hiding that tent within a derelict or disused building, or they could be squatting in vacant buildings. They could even have found a dodgy landlord who doesn't speak much English and so hasn't seen the news articles.

It will be easy in London to blend in; people mind their own business there. I've seen entire carriages full of people on the circle line manage to completely ignore a Mariachi band walking through and singing "when the saints go marching in". You don't speak to your neighbours. A lot of the population is relatively transient; you don't bother putting down roots in a neighbourhood if you know your landlord can evict you on a whim. No one bats an eyelid at an interracial couple. They know their way around and feel comfortable. Going out separately and wearing face masks makes sightings less likely.

They'd be much more conspicuous if they were trying to camp in a remote area and were going to the village shop for supplies.

 

[Earthwindfire]

Smack in the middle of reading this excellent non-fiction book and cannot help but wonder if CM and MG have hidden themselves with people in the underpasses of London? speculation, fwiw.

This Is London by Ben Judah review – the truth about a capital city utterly transformed

Nearly 40% of Londoners were born abroad – the city’s variety and its divisions are uncovered in this epic work of reportage

www.theguardian.com

''Ben Judah’s epic account of contemporary London is similarly motivated by a desire to show our capital in its true (new) colours: as a megacity of global migrants, some of them rich, most of them poor, few of them happy with their lot. Knightsbridge gets a chapter and so does Mayfair’s Berkeley Square, but it’s the people and places further out that really interest him – the Poles, Somalis, Afghans and Ghanaians in areas such as Beckton, Ilford, Edmonton, Catford and Harlesden. The ethnic majority, in other words: the 55% of London’s population that isn’t white British.

“I have to see everything for myself,” he tells us at the outset, “I don’t trust statistics.” An early chapter finds him dressed as a beggar and, Orwell-like, bedding down with 16 Roma in an underpass by Hyde Park. His companions complain long into the night: about the cold, the damp, the debt enforcers, the rich Arabs “coming in and out of the golden places” who give them nothing. They also complain about the police, so Judah takes himself off to Frontline Peckham – Peck’Nam as it’s called – to hear the story from the other side. With his mournful talk of the vanishing English and the rise of ghettos, the policeman he interviews might pass for a member of the BNP. But he is Nigerian, and the story of how he got to be where he is makes compelling reading.''
View attachment 405473

this is london - Google Search

Thank you, this sounds like an interest8ng read .

 

[Earthwindfire]

I don’t think they are in the UK now. If they are then I don’t think they are living in a tent. I expect they will have made themselves some sort of more permanent arrangement, all be it an unofficial, under the radar one. Maybe a dodgy landlord, perhaps one who originates from elsewhere and isn’t assimilated with life in the UK particularly well so is less likely to watch UK news. When we were at university, my husband and his house mates rented out a house from a man like this. They used to pay rent to him in cash at an office at the end of his garden.

i agree they have to be in an urban area, most likely London, if in the Uk. But I expect the ultimate aim will have been to make it abroad, to a big city in maybe France or Italy.