Recovered/Located UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon & Newborn, left a broken down car on motorway, Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023

[Puddleduck2]

I wonder if perhaps the car was found to contain blood, and so had to be secured as a potential crime scene which would explain the length of the motorway closure. But that actually it was CM's blood - she might have given birth in the car and that's how the police knew immediately that she had had the baby.

And yes new keeper details are updated online most of the time now, it's pretty much instant.

Would traces of blood still be able to be found once the car had gone up in flames?
I get the feeling the police had been trailing them for some other reason.
Still wondering what their initial destination was they were intending on going to.

 

[Knitty]

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[swedepete]

Jan 15 2023
View attachment 395488

Mother missing with lover and newborn was Tatler 'It' girl

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon have been missing with a newborn baby for ten days, since they abandoned their car on the M61 near Bolton on January 5.

www.dailymail.co.uk

''The aristocrat daughter of a former page to the Queen was a 'very talented' actress who 'could have gone very far', before becoming estranged from her wealthy family, a former classmate has said.

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon, along with their newborn baby have been missing for ten days after they were seen abandoning their burning broken down car on foot, leaving the M61 near Bolton on January 5.

Both the Met and Essex Police forces have joined Greater Manchester Police on their efforts after the couple were spotted in Harwich Port, Essex and later at East Ham Tube station in Newham, East London.''

CM was and still is a seriously beautiful woman, whatever her problems might be....Also, by all accounts, highly gifted and intelligent in many ways. I just so wish that <modsnip - not victim friendly> she and her baby shall be found safe and soon!

 

[swedepete]

Would traces of blood still be able to be found once the car had gone up in flames?
I get the feeling the police had been trailing them for some other reason.
Still wondering what their initial destination was they were intending on going to.

Highly doutbtful that traces of blood could have been found if the entire car was engulfed in flames.
However,if the fire was confined to, say, the engine bay, that would obviously be another story.
I believe that they likely were aiming for Liverpool and the Ireland ferry, but for some reason changed their minds. After a long taxi ride from Liverpool to Harwich, Essex, they seem to have had their sights on the Harwich-Hook of Holland ferry, but again changed their minds for another taxi ride from Harwich via Colchester to east London.
The entire "flight" seems to be totally chaotic and unplanned...And no publicly known updates since they were spotted on CCTV in Newham, NE London, on 7th January...

 

[Amaz0nia]

Keeping an open mind here and this is solely my opinion but Im coming to think that what has happened is all to do with their lifestyle choices and maybe MG’s background plays a part<modsnip - OFF LIMITS>Its telling that for one reason or another they dont appear to have the older children with them, I also have a big feeling that SS & drugs are most probably involved too, leading to this chaotic way of life.

I have had the same experience with my sister & her 3 kids. She was all over the country, disappearing for months at a time, all 3 kids were born addicted to crack/heroin the 2&3rd child had to spend 3 months in hospital under a court order before being taken into care, my sister has had 2 subsequent children with the same outcome- is very sad. The behaviour of these 2 is almost a mirror of my experience with my sister. CM also having constant access to money is obviously helpful to keep under the radar. I feel very sorry for the baby as it has no choice in its parent actions.
Anyhow thats just my thoughts. Hopefully Im very wrong.

 

[AneutherSleuther]

Regarding CM having constant access to money - unless she is carrying large wads of cash then there must be bank transactions happening either withdrawing from a HITW or transfers/debit card purchases.

Is this information that the police can get hold of or does it need a warrant? I have no understanding of how these things work.

 

[swedepete]

Keeping an open mind here and this is solely my opinion but Im coming to think that what has happened is all to do with their lifestyle choices and maybe MG’s background plays a part-<modsnip> Its telling that for one reason or another they dont appear to have the older children with them, I also have a big feeling that SS & drugs are most probably involved too, leading to this chaotic way of life. I have had the same experience with my sister & her 3 kids. She was all over the country, disappearing for months at a time, all 3 kids were born addicted to crack/heroin the 2&3rd child had to spend 3 months in hospital under a court order before being taken into care, my sister has had 2 subsequent children with the same outcome- is very sad. The behaviour of these 2 is almost a mirror of my experience with my sister. CM also having constant access to money is obviously helpful to keep under the radar. I feel very sorry for the baby as it has no choice in its parent actions.
Anyhow thats just my thoughts. Hopefully Im very wrong.

How totally awful for you and your sister....Sadly, it does seem likely that something similar might have befallen CM. If she only could be <modsnip - not victim friendly> given the kind of expert help that her family could obviously afford, <modsnip>

 

[Lucy6226]

Regarding CM having constant access to money - unless she is carrying large wads of cash then there must be bank transactions happening either withdrawing from a HITW or transfers/debit card purchases.

Is this information that the police can get hold of or does it need a warrant? I have no understanding of how these things work.

Given it's been reported that they paid cash for a taxi from Liverpool to Essex I'm guessing that there's a large amount of cash on hand. Police would be tracking bank transactions imo

 

[swedepete]

A

Regarding CM having constant access to money - unless she is carrying large wads of cash then there must be bank transactions happening either withdrawing from a HITW or transfers/debit card purchases.

Is this information that the police can get hold of or does it need a warrant? I have no understanding of how these things work.

That is a very good question! I´ve been wondering the same thing. With the case involving three police forces (including the London Met Police), I´d imagine that there would be no problem for the Police to obtain this kind of banking documents. If a warrant were needed, it would most likely be granted immediately by a judge. What worries me is the complete lack of public updates from the Police!

 

[Amaz0nia]

Regarding CM having constant access to money - unless she is carrying large wads of cash then there must be bank transactions happening either withdrawing from a HITW or transfers/debit card purchases.

Is this information that the police can get hold of or does it need a warrant? I have no understanding of how these things work.

Ive thought that too but according to the Times article the family’s money is with some old private bank Hoare & co, whether that applies to CM’s money- i dont know, but I would think its a private bank for a reason, seeing as you need millions to bank with them. I expect the Police would need a good reason/warrant to look at anyones bank accounts due to the data protection act etc..

 

[Amaz0nia]

How totally awful for you and your sister....Sadly, it does seem likely that something similar might have befallen CM. If she only could be <modsnip - not victim friendly> given the kind of expert help that her family could obviously afford, <modsnip>....

Yes has been 25years of hell to be honest , the trouble is if CM dosnt want help, nothing not even her own family and children will male any difference. <modsnip- not victim friendly> Ive heard the same police language with my sister-they use the gently gently approach etc but it dosnt really work…thats why im almost sure drug/substance abuse is part of this story. Hopefully im wrong. <modsnip - not victim friendly>..all of this is just my musing opinion tho

 

[Puddleduck2]

Highly doutbtful that traces of blood could have been found if the entire car was engulfed in flames.
However,if the fire was confined to, say, the engine bay, that would obviously be another story.
I believe that they likely were aiming for Liverpool and the Ireland ferry, but for some reason changed their minds. After a long taxi ride from Liverpool to Harwich, Essex, they seem to have had their sights on the Harwich-Hook of Holland ferry, but again changed their minds for another taxi ride from Harwich via Colchester to east London.
The entire "flight" seems to be totally chaotic and unplanned...And no publicly known updates since they were spotted on CCTV in Newham, NE London, on 7th January...

Would they have not gone the M60 and M62 to get to Liverpool instead of the M61...?

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Highly doutbtful that traces of blood could have been found if the entire car was engulfed in flames.
However,if the fire was confined to, say, the engine bay, that would obviously be another story.
I believe that they likely were aiming for Liverpool and the Ireland ferry, but for some reason changed their minds. After a long taxi ride from Liverpool to Harwich, Essex, they seem to have had their sights on the Harwich-Hook of Holland ferry, but again changed their minds for another taxi ride from Harwich via Colchester to east London.
The entire "flight" seems to be totally chaotic and unplanned...And no publicly known updates since they were spotted on CCTV in Newham, NE London, on 7th January...

I wonder if there are alerts out at Holyhead, for the ferry across to Northern Ireland? They‘re conspicuous as a group though. I hope the newborn is ok.

I don’t think it’s easy to stay under the radar as a group particularly, unless they have people to put them up - which somehow I don’t think so.

 

[swedepete]

Yes has been 25years of hell to be honest , the trouble is if CM dosnt want help, nothing not even her own family and children will male any difference. <modsnip - not victim friendly> Ive heard the same police language with my sister-they use the gently gently approach etc but it dosnt really work…thats why im almost sure drug/substance abuse is part of this story. Hopefully im wrong. <modsnip - not victim friendly>..all of this is just my musing opinion tho

What you´re writing makes total sense and could well be pretty much the truth regarding CM and MG...
Drug/Substance abuse is shockingly widespread among primarily the younger/youngish members of the aristocracy/"upper classes"...
I have a former acquaintance (an Earl´s daughter who grew up in one of the most stunning castles in Britain), who in her 40´s is now an uncontrolled alcoholic, who recently spent 10 months in prison on a number of charges.
I know of a distant relative of the Royal Family, who for a long time was a drug-addict, and only found his way out of this nightmare after having met his therapist and now wife! A truly happy end against all odds!
I could go on and on and on, and know of such cases ending in tragedy and some, unexpectedly, in "salvation" despite seemingly impossible challenges!
So, there is hope <modsnip - not victim friendly>

 

[QB2022]

Mother missing with lover and newborn was Tatler 'It' girl new dailymail article. Appears where they were living before wasn't known for quite some time

 

[4dagon]

Hi! Just joined you to point something out.
The information about the baby being a boy is given in the Times paywall article. This is interesting because I think it shows that there was indeed blood from the birth in the burned car. If there was blood with a Y chromosome it would have to be male foetal blood, because if the foetus was a girl then no Y chromosome could have been present, so the only way the baby’s gender could be known to the police would be if they had access to blood from the birth. The only other possibility would have been if blood from the birth was sampled somewhere else, but it seemed to me more likely that you would tidy up traces after a birth unless you were on the move.

 

[Dpdan]

Perhaps the older children were removed when they were evicted, if CM wasn't engaging with support services to find accommodation. So it could have been quite recently.

I don't think the lack of Facebook updates or friends being surprised there were children is necessarily concerning, no one I know uses Facebook anymore.

 

[Earthwindfire]

Hi! Just joined you to point something out.
The information about the baby being a boy is given in the Times paywall article. This is interesting because I think it shows that there was indeed blood from the birth in the burned car. If there was blood with a Y chromosome it would have to be male foetal blood, because if the foetus was a girl then no Y chromosome could have been present, so the only way the baby’s gender could be known to the police would be if they had access to blood from the birth. The only other possibility would have been if blood from the birth was sampled somewhere else, but it seemed to me more likely that you would tidy up traces after a birth unless you were on the move.

Good point. Given the time frame involved, I wonder if they knew she was having a boy already (medical records) or if she sent a message to tell someone. Not much seems to run efficiently anymore so I would be surprised if they took a sample from the car and were able to get a result so quickly.

 

[Perodicticus potto]

Hi! Just joined you to point something out.
The information about the baby being a boy is given in the Times paywall article. This is interesting because I think it shows that there was indeed blood from the birth in the burned car. If there was blood with a Y chromosome it would have to be male foetal blood, because if the foetus was a girl then no Y chromosome could have been present, so the only way the baby’s gender could be known to the police would be if they had access to blood from the birth. The only other possibility would have been if blood from the birth was sampled somewhere else, but it seemed to me more likely that you would tidy up traces after a birth unless you were on the move.

I think it's pretty unlikely that DNA tests would have come back that quickly. The child was being identified as a boy within hours of the disappearance.

 

[4dagon]

I think it's pretty unlikely that DNA tests would have come back that quickly. The child was being identified as a boy within hours of the disappearance.

I don’t think you would need anything as elaborate as a DNA test if you were just looking for chromosomes. I’m not an expert on this but a think the presence of other substances such as alphafoetoprotein ((AFP) and probably placental tissue would show the origin of the debris.
I had lots of fun with this because my blood is Rhesus negative, which involves a good deal of testing. Until this became an issue for me, I didn’t even know, not having thought about it, that men’s blood is obviously different from women’s. Chromosomes are comparatively big and not hard to see.
I do think this makes it more likely that the baby was born in the car and that traces were found there.