UK- Costessey, 4 People Found Dead In Home

[iamshadow21]

He seemed to put on a lot of weight.

During e.g: depression
(I suspect he was suffering from it
MY OPINION ONLY so please don't berate me)

sufferers stop taking care of appearance and being fit.

I also suspect that this call might have been made AFTER the murders.
I reminds me of Derek R. who called the Police after fatally stabbing his mother.

Whatever happened,
IMO this case is a wake up call to take mental health issues seriously -
both by society and authorities.

Anybody can fall victim to such issues
and it would be good to know we will be helped and treated accordingly with easy access to specialists.

It is 21st century after all and there are remedies out there.

RIP to all victims of this tragedy.
I wish strength to mother to carry on living.

JMO

This is true, but middle age 'spread' is very much a thing for people of all states of mental health. People in middle age often become less active and their metabolism changes as they age. If they don't increase activity and change their diet, they put on a few pounds, or a lot of pounds.

We can't diagnose a man's mental state from a photograph.

MOO

 

[JennieM]

Norwich deaths: Four people found at house are named

Police have confirmed the names of four people from the same family who were found dead at a house near Norwich.

Police said the deceased were Bartlomiej Kuczynski, 45, Kanticha Sukpengpanao, 36, Jasmin Kuczynska, 12 and Natasha Kuczynska, nine.

Norwich deaths: Four people found at house are named

Police confirm the identities of all four people who were found deceased at a property near Norwich.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Amonet]

Some of my thoughts after today's update...

999 surely have guidelines to ask the caller if they are having thoughts of harming self or others. This is supposed to be the discerning line between sending officers or referring on elsewhere. So, was BK unclear about his state of mind? Rambling and too confused to explain how he was feeling? 999 should also have asked if the caller had already taken some action to harm self or others, and I think that should lead to 999 sending an ambulance, presumably with police if others were harmed.

I think police should have got him a callback from 111 instead of asking someone with confusion to make the call himself. People with MH issues don't always have the wherewithal to ascertain exactly who to call. In retrospect, he called exactly who he needed (999) the first time. If he had called 111, or if they had done a callback, they would either send an ambulance for an emergency (which could be a few hours wait) or they might say go to an out-of-hours doctors or urgent care service.

To me, the small description of the 999 call seems like BK was acting out of a MH crisis and not malice.

 

[Dotta]

Some of my thoughts after today's update...

999 surely have guidelines to ask the caller if they are having thoughts of harming self or others. This is supposed to be the discerning line between sending officers or referring on elsewhere. So, was BK unclear about his state of mind? Rambling and too confused to explain how he was feeling? 999 should also have asked if the caller had already taken some action to harm self or others, and I think that should lead to 999 sending an ambulance, presumably with police if others were harmed.

I think police should have got him a callback from 111 instead of asking someone with confusion to make the call himself. People with MH issues don't always have the wherewithal to ascertain exactly who to call. In retrospect, he called exactly who he needed (999) the first time. If he had called 111, or if they had done a callback, they would either send an ambulance for an emergency (which could be a few hours wait) or they might say go to an out-of-hours doctors or urgent care service.

To me, the small description of the 999 call seems like BK was acting out of a MH crisis and not malice.

Exactly!!!!

It is EMERGENCY number.

And it was EMERGENCY.

HELP line

Was it too difficult to call an ambulance on his behalf?

JMO

 

[Amonet]

This is true, but middle age 'spread' is very much a thing for people of all states of mental health. People in middle age often become less active and their metabolism changes as they age. If they don't increase activity and change their diet, they put on a few pounds, or a lot of pounds.

We can't diagnose a man's mental state from a photograph.

MOO

I think it's also common with married men, especially when they like their wife's cooking. They'll eat more than bfore marriage, focus on work and family instead of gym or football/sports with the lads a few time a week. Exercise becomes walking around the supermarket or DIY store, playing with and running around after kids. I think it's often a sign of a happy marriage. They're not trying to go to the gym to attract a woman, they're happy with the one they have. This is a lot of generalising, but I think it is still the main underlying basis for a lot of men who put on weight after marriage. I don't think BK looked unkempt in those photos, which were about four or five years old.

 

[Dotta]

Chief Const Sanford:

" 'Furthermore,
the constabulary is currently undergoing a routine inspection by His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue Services.

That inspection includes an assessment of our response to 999 calls.

Today,
I have asked the Inspectorate to consider undertaking a deeper review than the robust inspection already planned,

to provide the reassurance that the public and I need in our response to emergency calls.”

Dad found dead with daughters had missed emergency mental health assessment

Bartlomiej Kuczynski was taken to hospital by officers from Norfolk Police for an assessment weeks ago but he somehow was able to leave the site in Colney, Norfolk, unescorted

www-mirror-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[Telltale]

Exactly!!!!

It is EMERGENCY number.

And it was EMERGENCY.

HELP line

Was it too difficult to call an ambulance on his behalf?

JMO

He wouldn't have got an ambulance coming out. He'd have got a clinical callback in the next 12 hours or so at best.

I'm slightly confused as to weather the second call was 24 hours later or an hour later.

A lot of mental health patients call 999, some of them multiple times a day. None of the services have the staff to attend all of them. There has to be a fairly immediate reason to send someone right over.

Hopefully though, they will review and refine the connectivness between control centres. So that stuff like this can be passed over a lot more efficiently and picked up properly by a sister service if needed.

 

[Sarahlou]

He wouldn't have got an ambulance coming out. He'd have got a clinical callback in the next 12 hours or so at best.

I'm slightly confused as to weather the second call was 24 hours later or an hour later.

A lot of mental health patients call 999, some of them multiple times a day. None of the services have the staff to attend all of them. There has to be a fairly immediate reason to send someone right over.

Hopefully though, they will review and refine the connectivness between control centres. So that stuff like this can be passed over a lot more efficiently and picked up properly by a sister service if needed.

The second call was an hour later

 

[Dotta]

He wouldn't have got an ambulance coming out. He'd have got a clinical callback in the next 12 hours or so at best.

I'm slightly confused as to weather the second call was 24 hours later or an hour later.

A lot of mental health patients call 999, some of them multiple times a day. None of the services have the staff to attend all of them. There has to be a fairly immediate reason to send someone right over.

Hopefully though, they will review and refine the connectivness between control centres. So that stuff like this can be passed over a lot more efficiently and picked up properly by a sister service if needed.

I see.

Well,
I only came across 2 cases in my life concerning people with MH issues.

One,
some years ago a teacher colleague started behaving in a strange way at school meaning:
sitting motionlessly in a staff room with her eyes focusing at one point and not reacting.

The headteacher called her family and they acted immediately - she was admitted to Mental Health Hospital the same day.
Later, I was told she was diagnosed with depression

The 2nd case involved a neighbour's teen daughter (suicide attempt) and the ambulance arrived immediately also.
And the girl was put in hospital the same day.

So,
I guess I'm accustomed to rapid action in such cases.
I see them as life endangering.
They were emergency hospital admissions.

But, of course, such cases are dealt with differently across the world.

Family/Society help is vital in such cases,
as patients seem to be unable to help themselves.

JMO

 

[Amonet]

I believe that if BK had stated to 999 that he had self harmed (suicide attempt) that they would have sent an ambulance. Someone in that situation might be sent home after hospital treatment or they might be hospitalised in a mental health facility.

If he had been assessed later that day after an urgent referral from 111, he may well have been immediately hospitalised, either voluntarily, or if there was danger to others, then an involuntary hospitalisation (in a mental health facility).

It seems the danger here was maybe not so clear in advance of what happened. But we are still lacking so many important details. Everything progressed very fast, 1 hour, to the point of no return in this case.

 

[Telltale]

The second call was an hour later

In which case, unless he articulated a reason for services to immediately be concerned for his safety or someone elses. No way in high heaven would ambulance or police be round there in time to prevent anything that occured in the interim.

If he said he was going to kill himself, or that the Queen told him to stab his kids, then yes. If he was just displaying behaviour that indicated he needed to be checked by mental health, but there wasn't an apparent immediate risk, (and he didn't say he had charge of children) then it wouldn't trigger that kind of rapid in person response.

Perhaps it should, but there aren't the bodies. Emergencies get prioritised - of course this is on the assumption he didn't say or indicate anything that should have raised the THR. Remains to be seen if that's the case.

Interesting that a dog walker alerted them. Not someone coming knocking. Either a very nosey dog walker, the house is right on the road or it was a very evident cause for concern.

 

[Dotta]

I believe that if BK had stated to 999 that he had self harmed (suicide attempt) that they would have sent an ambulance. Someone in that situation might be sent home after hospital treatment or they might be hospitalised in a mental health facility.

If he had been assessed later that day after an urgent referral from 111, he may well have been immediately hospitalised, either voluntarily, or if there was danger to others, then an involuntary hospitalisation (in a mental health facility).

It seems the danger here was maybe not so clear in advance of what happened. But we are still lacking so many important details. Everything progressed very fast, 1 hour, to the point of no return in this case.

True.

I was referring to emergencies.

In cases when life is not endangered,
the patients are usually waiting for a meeting with a specialist.
But they are usually under the care of GP in the interim.

Also, to be treated/hospitalised, the patient must agree.

Sometimes, the families are in despair when a person with MH issues refuses to see a specialist.

But, nobody can be forced.

The only exception is if a person is a danger to oneself or others.

JMO

 

[Amonet]

In which case, unless he articulated a reason for services to immediately be concerned for his safety or someone elses. No way in high heaven would ambulance or police be round there in time to prevent anything that occured in the interim.

If he said he was going to kill himself, or that the Queen told him to stab his kids, then yes. If he was just displaying behaviour that indicated he needed to be checked by mental health, but there wasn't an apparent immediate risk, (and he didn't say he had charge of children) then it wouldn't trigger that kind of rapid in person response.

Perhaps it should, but there aren't the bodies. Emergencies get prioritised - of course this is on the assumption he didn't say or indicate anything that should have raised the THR. Remains to be seen if that's the case.

Interesting that a dog walker alerted them. Not someone coming knocking. Either a very nosey dog walker, the house is right on the road or it was a very evident cause for concern.

I think the dog walker must have seen or heard something extreme for police to decide to break the door down :-(

 

[AneutherSleuther]

The house is a relative new build (2016). They tend to have paper thin walls, even the external ones, and cheap windows. I can hear the woman across the street on her phone when we are both inside our houses and the windows are shut.
i don’t think the dog walker would’ve needed to be particularly nosey to hear a commotion at 7am in a quiet avenue.

 

[Spiderplant]

In which case, unless he articulated a reason for services to immediately be concerned for his safety or someone elses. No way in high heaven would ambulance or police be round there in time to prevent anything that occured in the interim.

If he said he was going to kill himself, or that the Queen told him to stab his kids, then yes. If he was just displaying behaviour that indicated he needed to be checked by mental health, but there wasn't an apparent immediate risk, (and he didn't say he had charge of children) then it wouldn't trigger that kind of rapid in person response.

Perhaps it should, but there aren't the bodies. Emergencies get prioritised - of course this is on the assumption he didn't say or indicate anything that should have raised the THR. Remains to be seen if that's the case.

Interesting that a dog walker alerted them. Not someone coming knocking. Either a very nosey dog walker, the house is right on the road or it was a very evident cause for concern.

House is set back from the road so I hate to consider the noise or such they may have heard to part from the footpath

 

[Skigh]

Further details of A&E trip of man involved in Costessey tragedy emerge

Further details of the hospital trip of a dad who was found dead alongside three members of his family have emerged.

www.eveningnews24.co.uk

Now, further details of just what happened on December 14 have been revealed by the hospital.

It has emerged Mr Kuczynski did receive a comprehensive review while being triaged by staff - but left before follow-ups could be carried out.

This meant he was not formally discharged from the hospital, which does not have specialist mental health facilities, before leaving.


Following a comprehensive clinical assessment, the patient was assessed as having mental capacity and he left the unit before being reviewed again by the team.”

The hospital trust itself does not provide mental health services, with this responsibility lying with the Norfolk and Suffolk NHS Foundation Trust, but its A&E facilities can be used by NSFT for urgent mental health assessments.


The incident, which saw police leave Mr Kuczynski in the hospital's care, has sparked a referral to the Independent Office for Police Conduct.

 

[Dotta]

"Calls for more transparency over Costessey deaths tragedy.​

Norfolk's mental health trust is under growing pressure to provide details over any dealings it might have had with a man found dead alongside three members of his family at a house in Costessey.

To date, the Norfolk and Suffolk NHS Foundation Trust (NSFT), which runs the region's mental health service, has provided no comment on whether Mr Kuczynski was known to its staff.

A spokesman said the trust was unable to give any comment on the tragedy due to ongoing police investigations.

But campaigners who have been raising concerns about standards of care at the trust for several years have said it should do more to clarify what treatment, if anything, Mr Kuczynski had received.

It comes at a time when demand for mental health services in the region continues to be a significant challenge, with growing waiting lists for treatment."

Mental health trust under pressure over Costessey tragedy

Mental health bosses in Norfolk are facing calls for greater transparency over the circumstances leading to the death of four family members in…

www.eveningnews24.co.uk

 

[QB2022]

Norwich deaths: Girls died of knife wounds

The bodies of Jasmin Kuczynska, 12, and Natasha Kuczynska, eight, were found with those of two adults.

www.bbc.co.uk

Deaths of the girls and SIL being treated as murder, death of him not suspicious. How sad.

 

[Skigh]

House is set back from the road so I hate to consider the noise or such they may have heard to part from the footpath

Looking at the pictures,the house looks as though it is next to a footpath .

 

[Kinderbelle]

Exactly!!!!

It is EMERGENCY number.

And it was EMERGENCY.

HELP line

Was it too difficult to call an ambulance on his behalf?

JMO

I'm not shocked at all about the 999 response or the general response of Norfolk Constabulary given my own dealings with them
.
First time was when I had a stalker. He would look in my windows, follow me on the school run, block my path so I was forced to talk to him. He cornered me with his car once and tried to force me to get in, physically pushing me to the door. I shoved him to get him out of my way and he drove slowly alongside me. Norfolk Constabulary told me "We can't do anything, he hasn't physically harmed you". It went on for a year and then Covid hit.

My second call was three years ago. They could hear my neighbor in the background pounding on my door screaming that he was going to make my life a living hell because of something my landlady asked him to do, that I wasn't even aware she had asked him to. I was heavily pregnant at the time, alone with my daughter. They failed to come out at all, he was there for half an hour screaming and shouting. I called them back repeatedly asking if they were coming. I got excuse after excuse after excuse while I was ON THE PHONE, and neighbour only left because another neighbour eventually came out and moved him on.

He spent the next two years spitting at us, calling us c***'s, screaming out of his window, chucking in our garden, all in front of our children and I called the police every time to log it, had a ton of evidence on film with his face in. Every single time it was a shrug, "sorry" and nothing was ever done about it.

Norfolk Constabulary eventually left me a voicemail almost a year after we moved away from the area for mine and the kids safety (he never targeted my husband). The delightful officer couldn't have sounded any more bored as he remarked "I am calling to follow up with you about this incident because I've been told I have to by my Sargent".

I keep a can of deep heat spray and a metal pole by the door now. Much safer area but I definitely wouldn't be calling them again in a hurry.