GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

[cottonweaver]

Oh my. I wonder if that explains why they put a wash on before calling the ambulance. Blood on cushion in living room - there could be many theories for that - wonder if they moved her there to make it look like they had carried her to lay her somewhere comfortable, but then decided they needed to only just have discovered her some while after the 'accident', so moved her back to her room. Or, they didn't want blood evidence in her room (from Ellie or JG) or missing bedding in wash to be seen by paramedics. Blood on pillow, not necessarily pillow case, dilute - had they tried to wet sponge it off maybe?

Ellie may have originally been injured in the living room and then moved to bedroom to hide her from Izzy and put her in a place where they wouldn't have seen her have the 'accident.'

Wonder why JG was bleeding on floor of Ellie's room. No one's mentioned if she had visible injuries when paramedics attended or was at the hospital. I'm curious about what they did with Izzy while all this was going on in the house.

Yes baffled because I couldn't find any news coverage for yesterday to expand on that link.

The forensic guy is a spatter specialist but IDK what he meant when he said JG's "recent " blood - it's a vague term, could it just be that JG was attacked by him in Ellie's bedroom at an earlier date?

Ellie blood on cushion - whether this was transfer blood or spatter, during the paramedics arrival, as you say them moving her downstairs ?etc etc IDK - I assumed all the resus happened in the bedroom but don't know if that is correct

Yes dilute is odd isn't it - I didn't actually even notice that! Pillow case went into wash? Pillow still had staining so attempted to sponge it away?
More than just BB's clothes in that final wash? Maybe the duvet too?

As judgmental as we are, we can guess the injury did not happen near the floor & stool from the fall.
I am wondering if it did occur in the bedroom, thrown against the wall but she fell onto the bed.

It will be interesting to find out if there was evidence of walls etc blood clean-up (as in that awful B.Watts case - walls cleaned down etc. )

 

[cottonweaver]

Also based on an earlier point flutterby has posted - why did she not give him up and then she could've kept her kids, social worker pressure etc.

And Tortoise's ( i think) , she endured that 1hr long taxi ride without calling an ambulance .

It is very unusual.
Maybe the s workers also thought she would crack and confess to BB's sins as most mums who had had a 7 week old baby removed from them - the pain of parting would be almost visceral - she clearly can control her own feelings, I don't doubt she is under his control too, to some extent.
If losing a tiny, fragile baby does not make her relent , nothing will. ( OTOH is it possible she was lied to, back then in 2007? Of course.)

Hopefully life for him and for her there is no way that the sentence maximum for "perverting" for her , is long enough , as it stands

2 months to go, but anyway.....
here's the guidelines for cruelty & neglect etc , pg 17 , 5- 9 years, dependent on the aggrav/mitig criteria explained:
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.u...saults_on_children_and_cruelty_to_a_child.pdf

IDK if they take into account that Ellie was only with her for 11 months. Is that "protracted" and long-term enough?

Youngest will be about 7 now - is she likely to have given testimony?
see this development in the law:

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/may/12/courts-children-witnesses

 

[Tortoise]

Ellie's class teacher and school admin officer give evidence

http://www.courtnewsuk.co.uk/newsgallery/?news_id=44412

http://www.courtnewsuk.co.uk/newsgallery/

 

[cottonweaver]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36226258

more school witnesses

Administration assistant Kelly Vennard said Ellie's mother Ms Gray became "angry and aggressive" when the school contacted her and demanded to know if other parents were treated the same way.

Various reasons for absence included "upset stomach, mum has interview, unwell over the weekend, sick in the night, and sore throat", the court heard.
Ms Vennard said: "Her attendance was so low, every absence that occurred would need medical evidence. It was just an ongoing thing."

GP

When GP Dr Hazel De-Bono saw Ellie with her father on June 23, she noticed a bruise in the centre of her forehead, a minor graze and bruising across the bridge of her nose, the court heard.
In a statement, she said Mr Butler told her his daughter had tripped and fallen on the stairs at home, knocking her glasses into her face.

'Ears pinned back'

Four days before Ellie's death, Mr Butler took Ellie to see Dr Sheldon Huggins about getting her ears pinned back.
Dr Huggins said: "I thought it was odd because she was a young girl. It would be an operation. It would mean putting her to sleep. I thought it was a bit drastic but given he eventually told me she was being bullied, that's why I decided to refer her."

 

[Gigi-G]

Thank you Tortoise for your brilliantly detailed feedback on the trial again.

so in line with what we had speculated previously :
- truculence with school staff over attendance issues
- JG is not mild & meek- "furious" / anger ( not always the victim, here she is on the attack with the school and as far as threatening her solicitor - attack best form of defence)
- Ellie expected to lie and cover-up to outsider adults ( am surprised that Ellie could do it so convincingly tho)
- both playing the victim card
- JG playing the "wasn't aware that Ellie was in pain"
- expectation that the grandparents were not on the best of terms with JG and BB

not expected:
- "Google us" oh my!!! I already had the feeling that they loved the 2012 publicity but actually taking in their own press cuttings!
- being asked to leave the premises by the headmaster shows he couldn't control it when he had to
- just how bad Ellie's attendance record was


I am expecting to hear that the tchng staff were in contact with SS updating them re. her attendance record but maybe they did not contact them over the "falling over puppy"injuries incident simply because they both believed and due to having to tread carefully with this family.

And on the previous issue we discussed in posts - the not taking her to hospital re. broken shoulder - they could actually have done that if they cared enough, because they knew they could rely on Ellie to lie & cover-up for them , as she had done despite persistent questioning by the school teachers.

I am looking forward to hearing what her GP has to say and details on the giving sick notes when a child is not present at the appointment. Am wondering if this pair "shopped around" for unfamiliiar doctors to fool? eg walk -in surgeries. ( Clearly the hospital staff followed procedure and contacted social services on at least one occasion. ) I expect that Social S had to also tread a careful route with this un-cooperative & probably litigious pair but still, it's hardly a new challenge for social services.

Anyway, I am imagining BB wants Ellie in school as he would rather not have her at home daytime, yet precisely because of the abuse she is rarely in school, so she gets more punishment for being stuck at home.

Meanwhile he is too precious to work. ( He doesn't have a skill like JG, quote from previously. ) It's a joke. In Greater London he could have easily found "unskilled" work had he really resented being a "house-husband."( By 2012 he no longer has the excuse of spending his days researching SBS or fighting courts & social services but JG was happy with him being at home neglecting a sick child & then beating up her child! ) I don't believe he actually does "resent being a house-husband" as we have heard, it's just another ploy and "poor me" grievance from him that he can throw back at her.

He (BB) was I think at one stage a Removal man. Plenty of work around any where for one of those I would of thought. Or is he a secret closet Internet freak. We all are aware that he spent a lot of time studying the laws of the land. Custody rights. Civil Court. Etc etc.
I read on many posts and media reports that he resented his 'house husband' role.
I don't think it's so much about being the house husband. But it's the parental role he resents. Becuz kids as we know are noisy. And wanting and needing and siblings fight. And the harmonics of that house. Would be so outta whack. I can see him being the type of parent who banishes them to their bedrooms. While he does whatever he does.
Also I think that JG has a voice. When the two of them are fighting together as a team against an authority figure. JG will spit her venom too.
BB has this household terrified of him. His partner his children. Behind closed doors. He turns into a monster. She turns into a mouse. The children turn invisible until BB gets riled.

MOO.

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[Gigi-G]

Thanks for clearing this up - I had read that before but didn't remember and then much later saw the " gossip/rumour" comment.
No previous.
Bet there are a few ex-girlfriends who could testify he is abusive.

I read somewhere he had previous. I'll try to find it

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[Gigi-G]

this is interesting as it also mentions JG's blood being found in the home

- See more at: http://www.courtnewsuk.co.uk/newsgallery/#sthash.ax6bTNxB.dpuf

This made me actually feel violently sick.

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[Gigi-G]

I hope the book gets thrown at this pair.

Thanks for the updates from the court Tortoise. With hindsight, it's easy to wonder why the school didn't do anything, but I suppose with the excuses/doctor's notes coupled with the two angry parents, it was a difficult position to be in. The 'google us' comment is shocking though!

This is what I don't understand. It's happened with a few children. They've been allowed to 'slip thru the net' for whatever reason. Not enough staff. Lack of communication between departments and/agencies.
That's why imo they didn't take Ellie to hospital with her shoulder injury. Becuz they'd find a lot more than a fractured scapula.
That's why they kept avoiding appointments with doctors dentists parents evening. School meetings. As we've seen JG & BB get very irate when questioned over Ellie's lack of attendance at school etc..
ALL AGENCIES THAT DEAL WITH CHILDREN THAT ARE FOSTERED. RETURNED INTO FAMILY. OR ON THE AT RISK REGISTER. OR FEAR THERE MAYBE A RISK AT THE CHILD'S HOME. NEED TO LIASE WITH EACH OTHER!!!!

Just yesterday a young pretty woman who fostered in her cousins 12 month old baby girl. As she was the 7th child born to a cocaine addicted mom. The baby daddy requested for his cousin to take her in.
Such a cute lil baby. Giggling pics and videos. 2 months in. The woman n her 'bf' became unstable (he was married)
4 months later baby was dead. I will find link... so heartbreaking

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[Gigi-G]

Oh my. I wonder if that explains why they put a wash on before calling the ambulance. Blood on cushion in living room - there could be many theories for that - wonder if they moved her there to make it look like they had carried her to lay her somewhere comfortable, but then decided they needed more time and to only just have discovered her some while after the 'accident', so moved her back to her room. Or, they didn't want blood evidence in her room (from Ellie or JG) or missing bedding in wash to be seen by paramedics. Blood on pillow, not necessarily pillow case, dilute - had they tried to wet sponge it off maybe?

Ellie may have originally been injured in the living room and then moved to bedroom to hide her from Izzy and put her in a place where they wouldn't have seen her have the 'accident.'

Wonder why JG was bleeding on floor of Ellie's room. No one's mentioned if she had visible injuries when paramedics attended or was at the hospital. I'm curious about what they did with Izzy while all this was going on in the house.

Nose bleed maybe. Maybe he back handed her to calm down before finally 'setting the scene'

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[Gigi-G]

He (BB) was I think at one stage a Removal man. Plenty of work around any where for one of those I would of thought. Or is he a secret closet Internet freak. We all are aware that he spent a lot of time studying the laws of the land. Custody rights. Civil Court. Etc etc.
I read on many posts and media reports that he resented his 'house husband' role.
I don't think it's so much about being the house husband. But it's the parental role he resents. Becuz kids as we know are noisy. And wanting and needing and siblings fight. And the harmonics of that house. Would be so outta whack. I can see him being the type of parent who banishes them to their bedrooms. While he does whatever he does.
Also I think that JG has a voice. When the two of them are fighting together as a team against an authority figure. JG will spit her venom too.
BB has this household terrified of him. His partner his children. Behind closed doors. He turns into a monster. She turns into a mouse. The children turn invisible until BB gets riled.

MOO.

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Thank you Cottonweaver

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[Gigi-G]

Nose bleed maybe. Maybe he back handed her to calm down before finally 'setting the scene'

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Possibly it was 'normal practice' for them to go to their rooms to play. Just MO.
That way Izzy would be out of the way while the set the scene.

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[Tortoise]

I'm wondering if the new puppy was a bribe to keep Ellie quiet after her broken shoulder. I don't know how long they'd had the puppy but it sounds as if Ellie may have been describing it to the teacher for the first time. Someone who resents looking after children isn't going to enjoy the extra demands of a puppy either.

 

[Gigi-G]

This is what I don't understand. It's happened with a few children. They've been allowed to 'slip thru the net' for whatever reason. Not enough staff. Lack of communication between departments and/agencies.
That's why imo they didn't take Ellie to hospital with her shoulder injury. Becuz they'd find a lot more than a fractured scapula.
That's why they kept avoiding appointments with doctors dentists parents evening. School meetings. As we've seen JG & BB get very irate when questioned over Ellie's lack of attendance at school etc..
ALL AGENCIES THAT DEAL WITH CHILDREN THAT ARE FOSTERED. RETURNED INTO FAMILY. OR ON THE AT RISK REGISTER. OR FEAR THERE MAYBE A RISK AT THE CHILD'S HOME. NEED TO LIASE WITH EACH OTHER!!!!

Just yesterday a young pretty woman who fostered in her cousins 12 month old baby girl. As she was the 7th child born to a cocaine addicted mom. The baby daddy requested for his cousin to take her in.
Such a cute lil baby. Giggling pics and videos. 2 months in. The woman n her 'bf' became unstable (he was married)
4 months later baby was dead. I will find link... so heartbreaking

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Google Kandyce Keegan

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[cottonweaver]

I'm wondering if the new puppy was a bribe to keep Ellie quiet after her broken shoulder. I don't know how long they'd had the puppy but it sounds as if Ellie may have been describing it to the teacher for the first time. Someone who resents looking after children isn't going to enjoy the extra demands of a puppy either.

This buying of a pup had me perplexed because it didn't fit the stereotype I was creating of him. ie. if he can't cope with occasional childcare, how can he cope with a puppy - but that it was a sweetener or a reward for keeping quiet - yes. ( No idea how old the dog was at this stage. )

I am baffled by the ear pinning back. What are posters' views on that? see photo link below. I infer from the consultant that BB only told him about the bullying right at the end, and that the Dr was trying to advise BB against this operation. So did BB make up the bullying to swing the argument as he wasn't getting his way?

ie. If your kid is that age, wears her hair as a bob as in the photos.....would you consider that op?
ie. also he has had that child in pain, in hospital a few times now. In all the 11 months he has been with her she has been in physical pain, often acute - so why volunteer for an operation? ( Plus presumably he doesn't even like doctors and specialists after the previous SBS battle. )

photo - only one that exists where she has ears partly exposed
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/...HKr9_uHUEl_nmj3Nb7_s5oGlu-8IeK57fWoZWMwRw.jpg

she looks perfectly normal to me, later photo too
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/12/24/article-2252644-16521773000005DC-889_634x812.jpg

 

[Gigi-G]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36226258

more school witnesses



GP


'Ears pinned back'

Hmmm ears pinned back. She doesn't have what I call sticky out ears. She does have albeit minor. Which is why she may wear glasses. A slight turn in her I think left eye. Which the glasses will in time with wearing should rectify it. But that could of been down to previous head trauma. From 6/7 weeks. Or sustained head trauma.
I can't see why a doctor would refer her. Unless the doctor was already aware of BB's anger issues. So referred her anyways.

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[Tortoise]

I think it's very odd that this is the first mention of bullying. None of the teachers raised it in evidence and the parents hadn't spoken to the school about any such concerns.

That's a real mystery. Her hair covers her ears anyway, although I do remember the head teacher in court saying that mum was reminded that Ellie must have her hair tied back for school. It just popped up out of nowhere in amongst the school's concerns about absence and it wasn't picked up on or elaborated on, I think it was just the reading of a staff note.

 

[cottonweaver]

Hmmm ears pinned back. She doesn't have what I call sticky out ears. She does have albeit minor. Which is why she may wear glasses. A slight turn in her I think left eye. Which the glasses will in time with wearing should rectify it. But that could of been down to previous head trauma. From 6/7 weeks. Or sustained head trauma.
I can't see why a doctor would refer her. Unless the doctor was already aware of BB's anger issues. So referred her anyways.

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UL - what do you mean Gigi?

BIB - now that's interesting too but just brings more questions again.

Is this the same GP who referred and also will have access to hospital admission record ( c. jan 2013) as well as provided sick note in October and also saw her 23/06/13 ( P Hazel De-Bono saw saw Ellie* & BB together at an appointment where doc noticed the "bruise in the centre of her forehead, a minor graze and bruising across the bridge of her nose," and he explained "Mr Butler told her his daughter had tripped and fallen on the stairs at home, knocking her glasses into her face."

Hope to hear from some more of the practice docs and find out their opinions and actions - for all we know they may have alerted social services.

 

[cottonweaver]

I think it's very odd that this is the first mention of bullying. None of the teachers raised it in evidence and the parents hadn't spoken to the school about any such concerns.

That's a real mystery. Her hair covers her ears anyway, although I do remember the head teacher in court saying that mum was reminded that Ellie must have her hair tied back for school. It just popped up out of nowhere in amongst the school's concerns about absence and it wasn't picked up on or elaborated on, I think it was just the reading of a staff note.

isn't it. Also odd - why does the little girl need her hair tied back, at bob length?

Last week I wondered- before you told us of all her absences- is he going to have claimed school bullying for her possible low attendance, as it's an easy thing to throw back - but no, he wasn't claiming bullying or Headmaster Alex would have brought it up.

From what we have read, to date, I do think he is very astute. He's not some "oik". He has the ability to take people in when he needs to, say the right thing. IDK how he became to be like this, his upbringing.

( If I was that consultant, I'd want bullying over a child's physical feature dealt with at school instead of - ok , I'll refer you for the op.. Kids will always cat-call over a big nose, knobbly knees whatever, it's not nice, but surgery seems like giving in to bullies to me, especially after only 11 months in a school - things won't even have totally settled by then.) Anyway, I am thankful for Ellie's sake, that she had that school and her friends there - probably happiest there, safe. Very sad.

On the JG blood impact spatter in Ellie's room , I would like to think , whenever it happened, that she got in the way in order to protect her child

ETA _ The doc mentioned re the ears is possibly another GP, not a consultant as I have said earlier

 

[Tortoise]

I think her hair was a bit longer when she died, some of those bob haircut photos were taken earlier in the year.

 

[cottonweaver]

the doc who was mentioned in the earlier link - October 9 day absence & JG request for a sick note

Dr Annabel Ilves had a telephone consultation with Gray in October in which the mother described Ellie as recovering from a “respiratory tract infection” and requesting a note for school to cover her absence from the beginning of the month.

She agreed to a letter repeating the mother’s comments. However, it did not authorise Ellie’s absence and made clear she had not been seen at the surgery.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/06/ben-butler-trial-jennie-gray-ellie-teachers

DMirror doesn't have much to add today , same as other papers except notes " The court also heard evidence from a succession of GPs who dealt with the Butler family."
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tragic-6-year-old-ellie-7912831