GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

[Gigi-G]

Totally totally agree. Any normal mother would protect their children at any cost. Even if it were detrimental to their own health... (I'll post a relevant link up in a min)

Evidence gathered stated JG had seen a variety of doctors about Ellie's health.
But only on their say so. It seems JG would rather (if Ellie was bruised etc)
Ask advice over the phone. And treat her with over the counter medicines.
All fine until you need antibiotics.
She is extremely deceptive. He's got the drive to control her and the children. And she will portray BB in such a way that she won't hear anyone put him down verbally.
He has brow beaten her so much over the years. She wouldn't know the truth if it slapped her upside the face.
Even to the point of not believing the doctors diagnosis.
Which led to BB taking up the case in 2009.

They are both prolific liars. And I really really hope that they BOTH pay for such an awful life they gave their children.
Presents are a poor remedy for love.

Send them DOWN and loose the key.

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This is the link I mentioned about mothers' doing anything for their children.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...oller-run-lorry-road-outside-supermarket.html

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[squish]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dads-abusive-texts-reveal-toxic-7788206

An article from a few weeks ago, so no new information but I just wanted to comment on these excerpts.

BIB 1 - This makes me very upset. Ellie wetting herself in her own home, the place where she is supposed to feel safest, a sanctuary with her own family. And "to be bad". That has to be some twisted logic and a glimpse into the mother's mind there. Who, but a bully herself, would assume a child who has suddenly become incontinent is doing it purposely to be bad. That is demonising the child. She wasn't a toddler any more, exerting control by that type of tantrum/behaviour. My first thought would be that the child is terrified of something, if illness/bladder infection has been ruled out. This was (according to the headmaster) at the time the family were allegedly away on their summer holiday, and the reason why Ellie missed the end of term. I have to wonder if there is some truth in your theory flutterby, that the mother was scapegoating Ellie too.

BIB 2 - She can't deny in court that he is physically abusive.

In a letter she wrote to him she refers to a new job, so unless she had two new jobs that year it can be pinpointed to October approximately. She refers to something she had done for him the previous week, to demonstrate that she would do anything for him.

I thought about this too. I suspect she was referring to covering for the broken shoulder blade.

 

[Gigi-G]

I thought about this too. I suspect she was referring to covering for the broken shoulder blade.

I read this re read it again. And again. And for the life of me I can't give one valid reason why I would be with that piece of dog poop namely BB.
I would NOT sit there and read his hate filled venomous tirades. And then text him back saying I loved him.
I would of grabbed my stuff. And the kids while he was asleep. And got the hell outta there.
How could she even stay with him knowing he hated Ellie so much?
He resented Ellie... Why?
Was Ellie the product of another relationship? Maybe prior to BB. Or on a break from BB?
why else would a man hate his own daughter?

Secondly. BB wasn't always like this. What happened to turn him into such a despicable human. With so much hatred of someone he's supposed to be in love with as he's in a relationship with them.
She supports him totally wholly she worships him. It's a bit like a 'cult' mentality. And I wouldn't mind betting. He's not 100% Faithfull to her either.
He's brainwashed her over the 9 years they've been together. Being that how many times have they been apart with his previous convictions. And splitting up from the relationship.

They'll fight this battle together. But I'll be very surprised if he doesn't get a lengthy sentence. If he doesn't I think there will be uproar.
In a way I do hope she does too. She should of been the mom that Ellie could turn to. To get a cuddle when feeling scared. To be told it's okay when a little accident occurred in bed. A mattress cover will help.
Ellie couldn't turn to anyone. How soo heartbreaking is that?
Cuz I bet if Ellie had got a beating off of BB. I think he would of said to JG to leave her. She's gotta learn.

Breaks my heart.

Anyone else have any idea?
Any profiling skills?

#RIPELLIE smile sweetheart you're safe n loved now ♡

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[cottonweaver]

"Then on the evening of July 27 internet searches were made for "six year old urinating to be bad" and "six year old heard a voice in her head", the court heard.

She also allegedly searched the web for "I am with a bully who beats me and tells me I am ugly and fat and hurts me all the time".

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dads-abusive-texts-reveal-toxic-7788206

I'm trying to give her the benefit of the doubt for the sake of it, for a moment. What if that was him doing those two first searches? It doesn't specify who made the searches. Maybe it's him googling to find the answers he wants – “Ellie hears voices – see Jennie, Ellie is disturbed. “, "Ellie lies......eg. when she says I have hit her..."

Anyway whoever is searching "child of 6 wetting the bed “ - this is the sort of article, ( extract below,) s/he could have hit upon with her search. I suppose s/he must have just ignored anything s/he didn't want to hear?

Signs, symptoms and effects of child abuse and neglect
5-11 yrs

Becomes secretive and reluctant to share information.
Reluctant to go home after school.
Unable to bring friends home or reluctant for professionals to visit the family home.
Poor school attendance and punctuality, or late being picked up.
Parents show little interest in child’s performance and behaviour at school.
Parents are dismissive and non-responsive to professional concerns.
Is reluctant to get changed for sports etc.
Wets or soils the bed

https://www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/signs-symptoms-effects/

 

[cottonweaver]

Gigi - Think your description of "She supports him totally wholly she worships him. It's a bit like a 'cult' mentality." feels right to me.

If you look at flutterby's link on NPD fathers/men ( pasted below) , he demands to be worshipped and it comes thru in the texts and letters.

Gray text her partner aug 2nd: "Just so U know - I am obsessed and in awe of U! Think U R so hit (sic) and want U to fancy me the same X...I would die for you."
even though by August 8, Gray searched the internet "I am with a bully who beats me and tells me I am ugly and fat and hurts me all the time".
The Mirror link also notes she has a private diary ( which he later discovers) so she is definitely not always being honest with him, but telling him what he wants to hear.

Also the link demonstrates so many rows in July & August, but of course as it was school hols we don't know if Ellie was also being attacked during this period as there are no "absences" recorded. Looks like JG may have been in employment at least around Aug, from the texts.


https://postcardstoanarcissist.wordpress.com/characteristics-of-narcissistic-fathers/

Mirror says JG wrote the list about Ellie
'lying, not doing as she's told, does not listen or pay attention, constantly answers back, argues, constantly manipulative, feel you can't trust her, acts like a child prior to her years, we feel she is aware she is doing this'.

The BIB is very telling but JMO - you don't consider "trust" as an attribute in a 6 year old CHILD, unless it's about relying on them to lie for you, keep secrets. Ellie's the enemy alright, she could be their undoing in their heads. So JG also knows about the abuse and not sure if she can trust Ellie?

 

[Gigi-G]

I'm trying to give her the benefit of the doubt for the sake of it, for a moment. What if that was him doing those two first searches? It doesn't specify who made the searches. Maybe it's him googling to find the answers he wants – “Ellie hears voices – see Jennie, Ellie is disturbed. “, "Ellie lies......eg. when she says I have hit her..."

Anyway whoever is searching "child of 6 wetting the bed “ - this is the sort of article, ( extract below,) s/he could have hit upon with her search. I suppose s/he must have just ignored anything s/he didn't want to hear?


https://www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/signs-symptoms-effects/

Thank-you Cottonweaver.
Well that's a pretty tight fitting match for Ellie. And the parents.
I just can't see tho. And it really does bother me somewhat.
And that's the younger sibling. Izzy.
Now.. I'm sure she would of heard. If not seen the goings on with BB and JG. And possibly Ellie being slapped or chastised for being 'naughty'
Unless she spends increasing periods at grandparents.
I'm guessing that's where she is now in any case.
As mom is bailed while proceedings are under way.

It's just one toxic dysfunctional family.
And this should of never happened
And Ellie should be here to play with her puppy.

MOO.

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[cottonweaver]

This early (pre 2012) letter is very odd, take another look:

One letter found inside a make-up bag in the parents' bedroom wardrobe read: 'Please let Ben become completely supportive. Do not let it be true about Lauren or anyone else.

-It also mentions her praying to get Ellie & sister back and a company Williams and time off that she needs and a grievance she hopes is not going ahead, prayers for £ loans., prayers for back surgery, for consultant tests, “make it so I have to have surgery”

Scan in the link
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...magic-spells-make-love-her.html#ixzz46whm2v8g

also another letter extract, ( same link) found in a different place, in hallway in black bag

Another prayer from Gray recovered from a black leather bag in the hallway read: 'Dear Jesus, dear beautiful goddess and most (illegible) God.
'Please make my home. Ellie, Ben and I all happy together as a family.
'Please don't let Ben leave me but make him learn to like me. Stop violence and make him WANT ME and be there at the birth if I have a baby boy.'

I am assuming the name of the youngest has been redacted again, for anonymity etc, just as the other letter has the black redaction.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...magic-spells-make-love-her.html#ixzz480o16Tq2

It's also clear he is sending her abusive texts whilst he is downstairs and she is upstairs as he is moaning about her loud voice

In one exchange, Butler warned: 'ur done..ur loud voice upstairs..I've lost it proper, get to sleep ur mother scum, f*** off now.'

PS. On reflection I am thinking the grandparents are the biggest risk for them in discovery of abuse of Ellie - if she ever had access to them and she was going to tell, it would possibly be them, if she was ever allowed to be with them alone. Aug 5th text, BB is referring to Grandma as "scum"

 

[Gigi-G]

Gigi - Think your description of "She supports him totally wholly she worships him. It's a bit like a 'cult' mentality." feels right to me.

If you look at flutterby's link on NPD fathers/men ( pasted below) , he demands to be worshipped and it comes thru in the texts and letters.

Gray text her partner aug 2nd: "Just so U know - I am obsessed and in awe of U! Think U R so hit (sic) and want U to fancy me the same X...I would die for you."
even though by August 8, Gray searched the internet "I am with a bully who beats me and tells me I am ugly and fat and hurts me all the time".
The Mirror link also notes she has a private diary ( which he later discovers) so she is definitely not always being honest with him, but telling him what he wants to hear.

Also the link demonstrates so many rows in July & August, but of course as it was school hols we don't know if Ellie was also being attacked during this period as there are no "absences" recorded. Looks like JG may have been in employment at least around Aug, from the texts.


https://postcardstoanarcissist.wordpress.com/characteristics-of-narcissistic-fathers/

Mirror says JG wrote the list about Ellie
'lying, not doing as she's told, does not listen or pay attention, constantly answers back, argues, constantly manipulative, feel you can't trust her, acts like a child prior to her years, we feel she is aware she is doing this'.

The BIB is very telling but JMO - you don't consider "trust" as an attribute in a 6 year old CHILD, unless it's about relying on them to lie for you, keep secrets. Ellie's the enemy alright, she could be their undoing in their heads. So JG also knows about the abuse and not sure if she can trust Ellie?

I really don't know. To be honest. I don't think it would of been Ellie making the searches.
I don't think the parents would of given her access. Because it would be out of 'his' (BB) control.
And JG wouldn't dare to go behind BB'S back, to let Ellie loose on a computer.

Saying that I don't think it would of been BB either.
I'm willing to put my hands up and say I'm pretty sure it was JG.
You see she's missed that 'bonding' period. Ellie was taken into care so young. And even when BB's sentence was quashed. It was still another 4+? Years until JG and BB won the right to have Ellie back in the family unit.
It was difficult I'm sure for JG. This lil girl came into her life. And she didn't really know her.
Just the same for Ellie. She didn't really know her mom.
Maybe that's why Ellie was as she was. We don't know own what reason she had to lie.. maybe it was something silly like did you take Izzys cookie?.... we'll never know. But the strained dynamics in that house. With JG taking the initial brunt of BB'S rage.
It wasn't going to be long before a big blow out happened.

And that is why we are here now.
MOO

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[cottonweaver]

GigI - re sister must have witnessed some of this abuse. Yes certainly BUT it's that controversy over min age for testifying I linked to a while back.
Will sis have been interviewed and will they actually even use that if she has?

I'm leaving sister's name out due to the trial reporting restrictions - just in case - but you know what I mean.
Also, I hope you are feeling better, we have had a thunderstorm here so I hope it has cooled for you.

 

[Gigi-G]

Cottonweaver hiya
Just another very quick thought.
More arguments you stated the Mirror reported happened in July/August.
I'm thinking like every parent between July and August.
It's the 6 week summer holidays. The schools finish around 19th July. And start back for the Autumn term 5th September.

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[cottonweaver]

I really don't know. To be honest. I don't think it would of been Ellie making the searches.
I don't think the parents would of given her access. Because it would be out of 'his' (BB) control.
And JG wouldn't dare to go behind BB'S back, to let Ellie loose on a computer.

Saying that I don't think it would of been BB either.
I'm willing to put my hands up and say I'm pretty sure it was JG.
.

no, i didn't think Ellie would be making searches. I do agree it could well be JG ( NOT BB) , was thinking out loud " what if..." partly because I think he is so odd.

 

[cottonweaver]

last one

Thought I'd take a look at the P.Disorders, with the caveat that I know zero about this man, BB.
And as said before, there is often a mix of a several and it takes a long thorough exam by a pysch to diagnose any of them. I know NPD is very "current" but thought I'd check the criteria for the more common PDs. This is from the DSM, dunno which number, but it's the forensic psych manual.

Here's antisocial

There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the
rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three
(or more) of the following: having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from
another.
1. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful
behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that
are grounds for arrest.
2. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases,
or conning others for personal profit or pleasure.
3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.
4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated
physical fights or assaults.
5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others.
6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure
to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial
obligations.
7. Lack of remorse

Link has the rest on inability to empathise, incapacity for intimacy, the "antagonistic" and "disinhibited" traits. Sounds like BB to me, better fit but JMO.

AFAIK there is zero mitigation in terms of culpability for the disorder. ( Otherwise our prisons would be empty and prison hospitals would be bursting!)

http://www.psi.uba.ar/academica/car...ica_tr_personalidad_psicosis/material/dsm.pdf

 

[Gigi-G]

This early (pre 2012) letter is very odd, take another look:

-It also mentions her praying to get Ellie & sister back and a company Williams and time off that she needs and a grievance she hopes is not going ahead, prayers for £ loans., prayers for back surgery, for consultant tests, “make it so I have to have surgery”

Scan in the link
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...magic-spells-make-love-her.html#ixzz46whm2v8g

also another letter extract, ( same link) found in a different place, in hallway in black bag
I am assuming the name of the youngest has been redacted again, for anonymity etc, just as the other letter has the black redaction.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...magic-spells-make-love-her.html#ixzz480o16Tq2

It's also clear he is sending her abusive texts whilst he is downstairs and she is upstairs as he is moaning about her loud voice


PS. On reflection I am thinking the grandparents are the biggest risk for them in discovery of abuse of Ellie - if she ever had access to them and she was going to tell, it would possibly be them, if she was ever allowed to be with them alone. Aug 5th text, BB is referring to Grandma as "scum"

Right... after reading reading these 2 or 3 times. I'm still as confused as I was the first time.
But here's my take on what I take from it.

I believe JG does love BB. Altho I think the way BB has brow beaten her down. By being verbally abusive about her looks and her mannerisms. She has become over the years used to thinking. That's what she is... so she's clinging on to BB cuz she thinks he's the only guy who would have a serious relationship with her. And of course he's the children's daddy. And it's supposed to be like this mummy and daddy live together. And have babies and they all live happily ever after. Maybe her mom and dad have had that sort of marriage. And now they're older kids are gone n grandkids come along. This is how JG pictures life. (MOO btw)

Now I'm sure BB had previous criminal activities prior to 6 week old Ellie. I think it might of been thieving and or weed. I'll try locate media for it.

I'm pretty sure at the beginning of their relationship things were good.
Not sure off the cuff how long they'd been a couple til she fell pregnant. But I think that was the game changer for BB.

Skipping forward to 6 week old Ellie. I think tensions were about. New mom young baby possibly colicky. She asks BB to watch lil one while she does something. Bath shop shower.. idk. But in those few minutes we go from a normal pink healthy baby to one that's not breathing properly amidst hysterical crying screams.
Did BB do something to Ellie? The court said YES.

Now. Filling in the time they were together. Before Ellie was born. Pregnant JG. I'm pretty damp sure he was off out with his mates when all she wanted was to sleep.
So I wouldn't mind betting he was seeing other girls... hence the name ' Lauren' showing up.
And possibly more.
I think even now. BB resents being 'tied' down.
And that is why he treats her the way he does.
He doesn't want to look like the dead beat dad. He wants HER to walk out.
So he'll still have a home he can bring girls back to. Have beer nights with mates. Play x box games n do what the hell he wants. Cuz NO ONE DARE TELL HIM.... OR ELSE.

As for the prayers. I think JG is at the end of her tether now. I still pray. Mainly for other people but I do pray.
And it looks like she maybe into White Witches.
They will actually make you a spell. If you send them the items needed. (A lock of hair. A photo. Something personal of theirs) they will send the items back. Together with a spell. Generally you'd light a candle or some white sage while you whisper the spell.
Google White Witches.

I noticed she wears necklaces One is a crucifix. One is a Rose Quartz. I wear Rose Quartz in my ring. It's a 'natural healer'

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[Gigi-G]

GigI - re sister must have witnessed some of this abuse. Yes certainly BUT it's that controversy over min age for testifying I linked to a while back.
Will sis have been interviewed and will they actually even use that if she has?

I'm leaving sister's name out due to the trial reporting restrictions - just in case - but you know what I mean.
Also, I hope you are feeling better, we have had a thunderstorm here so I hope it has cooled for you.

I don't think they'd involve one so young in testimonies. Maybe on extenuating circumstances they may get the officers to ask her while playing. As they do on Child abuse cases. I don't really know.
And yes you're right about the anonymity.. sorted.
As for JGs Parents. I hesitate to ask what they really know what's been going on. And yes I'm sure they'd of whistle blown if in fact they knew. Nothing much has been said about them. I'm assuming tho sibling is with them now?

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[Gigi-G]

Dear Cottonweaver.. I almost missed it out lol.. It's still awfully muggy here. No storm as yet. It did spit a few drops of rain fell and I mean drops lol 15 seconds worth. I'm still plugged up to the machine. I do like to come off it for a few hours to give my nose a break. I'm not used to it yet all day really. I can talk eat drink etc while it's on. Like the hospital ones.
But I'm hoping the air will clear a bit for tomorrow. I trust you are well. Thank you so much for the discussion on here today. There is so much now I need to Google. Keeps my mind active and me busy

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[Gigi-G]

And with that I've seen the time and I've no satellite signal. Hmmmpf. Time to switch it all off. Cottonweaver I shall wish you sweet dreams. And I will catch up with you again later today. Ha!

Goodnight all. Be safe. Ttfn

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[Tortoise]

PS. On reflection I am thinking the grandparents are the biggest risk for them in discovery of abuse of Ellie - if she ever had access to them and she was going to tell, it would possibly be them, if she was ever allowed to be with them alone. Aug 5th text, BB is referring to Grandma as "scum"

I agree.

BIB I haven't seen that text, where did you find it?

edited - sorry I think I've found it now - he called JG "mother scum", I don't think he was referring to her mother IMO.

 

[Gigi-G]

no, i didn't think Ellie would be making searches. I do agree it could well be JG ( NOT BB) , was thinking out loud " what if..." partly because I think he is so odd.

He is odd. Very. He is a Narcissistic psychopathic sociopath. Wow that's a mouthful the wrong side of brunch.

Jmoo as always

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[Gigi-G]

last one

Thought I'd take a look at the P.Disorders, with the caveat that I know zero about this man, BB.
And as said before, there is often a mix of a several and it takes a long thorough exam by a pysch to diagnose any of them. I know NPD is very "current" but thought I'd check the criteria for the more common PDs. This is from the DSM, dunno which number, but it's the forensic psych manual.

Here's antisocial


Link has the rest on inability to empathise, incapacity for intimacy, the "antagonistic" and "disinhibited" traits. Sounds like BB to me, better fit but JMO.

AFAIK there is zero mitigation in terms of culpability for the disorder. ( Otherwise our prisons would be empty and prison hospitals would be bursting!)

http://www.psi.uba.ar/academica/car...ica_tr_personalidad_psicosis/material/dsm.pdf

Brilliant analysis there Cottonweaver. I think he has such a complex personality (BB). I've tuned him down to around 3 or 4 at the moment. But I fell asleep reading.
Tbh I think if a complete breakdown of his traits. If he were in a position to carry on I'm sure we'd tick many more boxes.
All moo


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[Gigi-G]

I agree.

BIB I haven't seen that text, where did you find it?

edited - sorry I think I've found it now - he called JG "mother scum", I don't think he was referring to her mother IMO.

Hi Tortoise. Great find.
I do think all his venomous anger is directed to JG. So I am assuming cuz JG is Ellie's mom. That BB was calling her out to be 'mother scum)
Such a charming young man. I'm sure he's a great catch ! (NOT!!)

I'd love to know WHERE he got all this pent up anger and Hate to Ellie and her mom.

Also I wonder why her 'voice' upstairs was annoying him?
Was she on the fone to someone?
With the kids (bath n bedtime maybe)
Watching a film with the kids?
Chastising the kids.

Mind you I think he would get p'd off if you were sneezing / sniffing constantly with a cold.

Or could it be that this covers a time when Ellie was in pain. N JG was trying to deal with her and it?

So many questions. So many answers we'll not get.

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