GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

[Gigi-G]

****Mirror sorry not DM



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I think there was more videos and taping shown today. Not much to write up about. And still going over the diary excerpts. Paperwork found in communal bins.

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[Nellie Nelson]

The video is there. Right at the start you can see Ellie swaying. It's as though she is only semi conscious. She has definitely got a black eye which looks a few days old.

The accused sounds almost exactly as you would expect him to [after having read numerous texts he has written to his partner] a horrible loud mouthed foul mouthed bully.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3561335/Video-shows-father-accused-murdering-daughter-six-fit-rage-shouting-f-bruised-little-girl.html

 

[cottonweaver]

The video is there. Right at the start you can see Ellie swaying. It's as though she is only semi conscious. She has definitely got a black eye which looks a few days old.

The accused sounds almost exactly as you would expect him to [after having read numerous texts he has written to his partner] a horrible loud mouthed foul mouthed bully.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3561335/Video-shows-father-accused-murdering-daughter-six-fit-rage-shouting-f-bruised-little-girl.html

Yes, very sad. The eyes closed - looks as if she is so used to the regular abuse......

 

[Supernovae]

She looks spaced out, like she's dissociating herself from what's going on around her.

 

[Supernovae]

It look's like they've got to the pathology evidence. Jurors were shown a skull model produced from a 3d printout of a CT scan:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ellie-butler-murder-trial-jurors-7853513

 

[Gigi-G]

He is in fact. A modern day Jekyll and Hide. (Hyde)

I hope we get to see some more of the evidence tho. Those skull 3D replicas. A breaking first used in a court as evidence. By using CT scans. And 3D printing them out to give an idea of severity of injuries to Ellie's head.

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[Gigi-G]

I tripped over this on my wanderings. I don't think this is the actual skull/brain mass belonging to Ellie. *sorry to be graphic*
I think this was a run thru of A skull etc to see how it came out.
Because 3D printers use a compound that can conform n constrict and print from a CT x-ray. Which in itself is pretty much 3D. Allowing to see organs etc in situ that a 2D x-ray can't.

There doesn't seem to be much going on in court these last few days.
Has anyone got a decent link that's used everyday. I don't have Twitter is annoys me.. 😂

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[Gigi-G]

Ops I forgot to post.

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[Gigi-G]

Found on the Sun newspaper.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...-believe-Ellie-Butler-6-had-heart-attack.html

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[Supernovae]

"A first in Britain's courts" according to @CourtNewsUK:

[video=twitter;725649994758377474]https://twitter.com/CourtNewsUK/status/725649994758377474[/video]

http://www.3ders.org/articles/20160...inted-replica-skulls-makes-legal-history.html

(Contains the picture posted by Gigi-G, internal link goes to the Sun online in case anyone objects).

Reference is made to two models, here's a second image, again I don't know if it's the actual one:

 

[cottonweaver]

He is in fact. A modern day Jekyll and Hide. (Hyde)

I hope we get to see some more of the evidence tho. Those skull 3D replicas. A breaking first used in a court as evidence. By using CT scans. And 3D printing them out to give an idea of severity of injuries to Ellie's head.

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I can see why 3D printers will be step-forward in interpreting the evidence for juries. Butler's Defence lawyer must have thought "Drat" or wtte, when she found out that they were using this tech for the first time, on her case. I can see this tech will have a big impact on violent crime cases. It's akin to having an interior designer show you a drawn ground plan of your new home and then bringing out the 3D scale model. Yet with horrific injuries like these, it will also have a dramatic effect on a juror.

TBH though, I was more uspet at hearing the previous phrase "boggy mass" to describe this child's fragile head than seeing this plastic copy.

From your link, she tries to introduce some doubt.

But Butler's barrister said: "It appears to us they are not identical... and I think some care should be taken.

"They are simply somebody's best efforts at recreating what has been seen on the scans and not entirely representative of what has been seen on the scans.

IDK how thick children's skulls are compared to adults, but it goes without some saying that that has required devastating force - to dislodge a huge section of her cranium.

Seeing it I can feel how upsetting it was for the paramedics to be confronted with that -yet apparently it wasn't for BButler who went straight into damage limitation and arse-covering mode with his walk the dog chat to neighbours & evidence removal.
( He must have thought he was really clever taking the dog and chatting to that neighbour on his dumping trip - didn't fool the neighbour did he, straight away she thought it was odd that he should now try and exchange pleasantries with her. )

So little daily court -report coverage on this case - might see if that UK database for crimes against children on FB has anything - although I doubt it has

 

[cottonweaver]

why would anyone object Supernovae? You mean because the Sun is a tabloid or because the evidence is potentially upsetting?

 

[Gigi-G]

I think this break thru as a prop for Evidence will led the way for it to be used more widely. Giving more of an insight to the wounds. Apart from a 3D generated picture. The Jury could pick up and feel the the site and damage. Can't do or get a good idea of how/why. Until now.

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[Supernovae]

why would anyone object Supernovae? You mean because the Sun is a tabloid or because the evidence is potentially upsetting?

The Sun is controversial, even compared to other tabloids, because of their unethical and amoral practices over the years. There are still large scale boycotts of it in some parts of the country (especiallly Merseyside) because of their coverage of the Hillsborough disaster.

 

[Gigi-G]

"A first in Britain's courts" according to @CourtNewsUK:

[video=twitter;725649994758377474]https://twitter.com/CourtNewsUK/status/725649994758377474[/video]

http://www.3ders.org/articles/20160...inted-replica-skulls-makes-legal-history.html

(Contains the picture posted by Gigi-G, internal link goes to the Sun online in case anyone objects).

Reference is made to two models, here's a second image, again I don't know if it's the actual one:

I still find them creepy

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[Gigi-G]

She looks spaced out, like she's dissociating herself from what's going on around her.

Maybe that's how she blanks out. She obviously gets a sign from his (Ben) tone of voice.
I've a rescue dog. And have a pheromone in a small bottle that sits c in a plug socket and as it warms it releases dog pheromones. Therefore calming him down. As he's not nasty or vicious. He just tries to hide behind anything. Cupboards. TV. Bookcase (after knocking all the books down. Vet said try it). He still gets nervous n stressed but not as much as. If we raise our voices. Even slightly. He'll come to me on my lap. As if saying save me owner plz. It's hubby... he does like to be vocal. Especially when our sons are messing about like kids (they both over 18) lol

Anyway. Back to Ellie..
Maybe she zones out when he raises voice at her. But where was Izzy when this carried on. We know mom n dad sent her up to get Ellie after they called up to get her cake. To be honest. I think they've been 'grooming' Her into what's right as in what they do. And Ellie is naughty.

That pic makes me shiver. She's such a beautiful lil girl. (Reminds me somewhat of Becky Watts if you followed that case)
Why did the dad have so much hate towards her?
Do we know if he's ever laid hands on The sibling Izzy?
Is the hate directed at her becuz maybe he suspects mom was cheating at first?
Or maybe he didn't want kids just yet n she fell pregnant?
So given any of those scenarios. He resents Ellie.
If in fact. As I'm still not sure he didnt initiate SBS. on Ellie at 6 week's old. But 6 week's is a long time for a Ventouse delivery issue to show itself. Imo.
So maybe as he ended up in jail and was there for a period of time. He grew his resentment while there?
While he was launching his plea case.?
I DON'T KNOW arghhh.....
There are soooo many questions answered. And no one's getting/giving the answers. Not the right questions for the right answers.
And it seems like the mom was having issues with Ellie too. Wetting the bed. Being cheeky. Lying. Saying that she wants to go back to her foster parents.
I think Izzy went to Grandma's for a while.
But Ellie was fostered out.
Maybe Ellie felt 'safe' there. Could be who she was. Act her age. Be listened to. Not told to shut the f*** up.
And she loved the idea of being with her mommy again. But daddy is there too.

All my own opinion of course.

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[Gigi-G]

Sorry for the essay. My mind is buzzing.

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[cottonweaver]

The Sun is controversial, even compared to other tabloids, because of their unethical and amoral practices over the years. There are still large scale boycotts of it in some parts of the country (especiallly Merseyside) because of their coverage of the Hillsborough disaster.

Yes am aware of the Hillsborough +Sun history -I misunderstood, I thought you meant something in relation to the case. ( That's what happens when sloppy editors believe politicians and SYorkshire's accounts - so for me the bigger scandal is much higher up the "food chain".)

 

[Tortoise]

I had a free day today so decided to go along to the court and watch the proceedings.

Two pathologists giving evidence, one the neuropathologist who examined Ellie's brain, and then I think the other is called a histopathologist, who examined various fractures and bleeding at the postmortem. It was all very technical and I am amazed at the number of specialists whose names were referred to, that have been brought in to give expert opinions and conduct conferences, from as far afield as France and USA.

First chap (neuropathologist) said Ellie's brain showed evidence of an older injury as well. It was quite hard to hear everything he said but I think he said the old bleed was likely to be more than a few months up to a year old. He explained that it was very unusual in paediatrics to see those types of contusions and injuries that were present, because of the extra elasticity (I think, don't quote me on it). His opinion was that there was a forceful / violent impact from back of head causing the brain to move forward and back very quickly, causing what is known as a contrecoup injury - an injury on the opposite side from where it originated. He thought there were at least two separate blows to the head. Also two spinal injuries/bleeds quite low down the back.

Next chap (who hasn't been cross examined yet) gave evidence about the huge soft blood-filled lump on Ellie's head (dimensions 27cm by 17cm) extending from forwards of the mid-top of head to the base of the skull. Then skull fractures (I can't remember the term used but something like a twig like or branching effect) going up the head and around under the ear area. More massive bleeding under the dura (tough membrane underneath the skull) and even more bleeding underneath the second membrane covering the brain. He also examined the fractured left scapula, said the injury was about 2-3 weeks old and showed signs of starting to heal. Said it would have been extremely painful and her carers would have known she was in a lot of pain. Then there was lots of fresh bruising which they can tell by the colour of the bruises (blue and red) some on her arms, back, and chin, and bleeding in the optic nerves. Chin bruises unlikely to be caused by being gripped when she was being intubated in hospital because he thinks she had already died by then and the body doesn't continue to bruise after death.

Butler's QC cross examined the neuropathologist. The line seems to be that Ellie fell off a chair whilst enacting a song from peppa pig, (5 peppa pig jumping on the bed, one fell off and landed on her head or some such lyrics). Neither of the experts agreed with this possibility, saying they had never seen such injuries in a domestic setting.

Apart from that, I'm not sure I'm allowed to say anything about the defendants, who sat with a custody officer separating them. I will say that I left with a horrible feeling to put it mildly, and it wasn't because of the evidence I heard, which although devastating in terms of what happened to poor little Ellie, was presented without emotion. If I think of anything else I may have forgotten, I'll add it later.

The judge presiding is The Honourable Mr Justice Wilkie.

 

[Supernovae]

That's very interesting. Maybe with the history of the case they're making especially sure to make sure they've not left a single "t" uncrossed or "i" undotted.

Just a note: Courtserve has this notice under the listing of the case "Order made under Contempt of Court Act 1981 Section 4(2)." That section states:

"(2)In any such proceedings the court may, where it appears to be necessary for avoiding a substantial risk of prejudice to the administration of justice in those proceedings, or in any other proceedings pending or imminent, order that the publication of any report of the proceedings, or any part of the proceedings, be postponed for such period as the court thinks necessary for that purpose." It looks like their are unusual reporting restrictions in place and I notice that there are no press reports from today.