GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

[Supernovae]

I wonder if "elasticity"="plasticity."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity

 

[Tortoise]

That's very interesting. Maybe with the history of the case they're making especially sure to make sure they've not left a single "t" uncrossed or "i" undotted.

Just a note: Courtserve has this notice under the listing of the case "Order made under Contempt of Court Act 1981 Section 4(2)." That section states:

"(2)In any such proceedings the court may, where it appears to be necessary for avoiding a substantial risk of prejudice to the administration of justice in those proceedings, or in any other proceedings pending or imminent, order that the publication of any report of the proceedings, or any part of the proceedings, be postponed for such period as the court thinks necessary for that purpose." It looks like their are unusual reporting restrictions in place and I notice that there are no press reports from today.

There was an abundance of press cameras outside the Old Bailey yesterday, one courtroom was operating a ticket only system for entrance to the public gallery - I think it was the sentencing of the James Fairweather murder case. (ETA Also the trial directions for the Sian Blake murder trial same court yesterday) I also didn't see any press reporters in the public gallery of the Butler/Gray trial. We were not warned or restricted in any way when entering or leaving the public gallery, so I can only think that notice refers to certain elements of the case at certain times when it would be made clear.

The other thing of note was that this trial resumes at 2pm on Tuesday after the bank holiday, but there will be a meeting between the judge and counsels at 12pm to discuss how the expert evidence from the 2007 incident with Ellie will be presented to the jury.

 

[squish]

How pathetic is the mother for protecting this violent, worthless, unemployed over her own children? How can she be so in love with him?

-------

I think that poor Ellie would have had attachment issues even if her parents were perfectly innocent. It is incredibly traumatising for young children to have their relationships broken, and leaves permanent damage. Even if Ellie's parents had been innocent, it was cruel to rip her apart from the carers she knew and loved.

From the descriptions of Ellie's behaviour it sounds like she had these problems, which would have been made even worse by the abuse. This in turn would have given Butler the excuse to abuse her even more. Poor Ellie, her life must have been living Hell.

 

[flutterby]

The other thing of note was that this trial resumes at 2pm on Tuesday after the bank holiday, but there will be a meeting between the judge and counsels at 12pm to discuss how the expert evidence from the 2007 incident with Ellie will be presented to the jury.

Thanks for the info, I'm hoping to be there on Tuesday

 

[Tortoise]

Thanks for the info, I'm hoping to be there on Tuesday

Well you might be interested to know that the cross examination of the second pathologist* I referred to in my original post will be continuing on Wednesday, not Tuesday afternoon. This is because the prosecution had already booked in two witnesses for Tuesday afternoon who are only available to come to court that day. Judging by the meeting scheduled for noon on Tuesday without the jury presence, I think it might be the expert witnesses from the 2007 incident with Ellie when she was a baby, but I am only surmising that because of the timing of the meeting being slotted in before 2pm.

(*Professor RA Risdon)

 

[Tortoise]

I'll post something about my observations of the defendants later today. My concern was not whether it was allowed in terms of court reporting restrictions, but whether it breaks any forum rules. I think if I'm clear about what is my opinion and what is factual there shouldn't be a problem. Can anyone clarify this?

 

[Tortoise]

Okay, I'll record my thoughts about the defendants, as some might be interested to hear.

Knowing that Gray has admitted staging the scene for the call to emergency services, I think I had been expecting that she had had a change of heart about what had happened to Ellie before she arrived home, or had possibly accepted that Ellie's injuries were non-accidental. This is not the case.

I think I was also expecting to see some signs of distress and/or a mother's pain, and a somewhat helpless or downtrodden person, and/or a fractured partnership/relationship, on the basis of her letters and the abuse/power wielded by Butler in the relationship, which we've heard about in evidence. I saw nothing like that.

They are an extremely defiant couple and I've seen them operating in court as a very close team. Neither party comes across as weaker/stronger, it was very apparent that their priority is only themselves. They are working in unison, constantly bending forwards to talk to each other across the security officer who sits between them. Also writing notes constantly to send up to their respective counsels. The defiance on their faces is incredible, and the muttering or speaking out can be heard when they disagree with what is being said in court, which was everything that was said in court. Made even worse, in my view, by shaking their heads in a very exaggerated display of opposition, at every utterance from the expert witnesses. Even things like Ellie's earlier broken shoulder blade, they are refuting by fiercely shaking their heads from side to side for minutes on end. I expected the judge to tell them to stop because I found it to be so disruptive. And Butler sat vainly tweaking his spiky hair in the reflection of the glass of the dock, occasionally leaning to the side with his hand over his eyes, in a pose, and then glancing up to see if the jury was looking at him, while Ellie's horrific injuries were being explained to the jury.

It was most disconcerting to see this 'operation' almost like a business being run in the dock, with paperwork and notes strewn all about them, and not see any shame or humility, or signs of being affected by their daughter's suffering and injuries.

My personal opinion about the peppa pig jump/fall off the chair is that it is beyond ludicrous.

 

[cottonweaver]

There was an abundance of press cameras outside the Old Bailey yesterday, one courtroom was operating a ticket only system for entrance to the public gallery - I think it was the sentencing of the James Fairweather murder case. (ETA Also the trial directions for the Sian Blake murder trial same court yesterday) I also didn't see any press reporters in the public gallery of the Butler/Gray trial. We were not warned or restricted in any way when entering or leaving the public gallery, so I can only think that notice refers to certain elements of the case at certain times when it would be made clear.

The other thing of note was that this trial resumes at 2pm on Tuesday after the bank holiday, but there will be a meeting between the judge and counsels at 12pm to discuss how the expert evidence from the 2007 incident with Ellie will be presented to the jury.

Thankyou for this Tortoise.
Very interested in BIB- implications of presenting the 2007 evidence when there was the successful appeal.

eta - just seen the next post - tx for these brilliant insights. I was expecting as much from him( just because of reading his 2012 grand-standing interviews), but like you, due to the admission coupled with the death I thought she would have seen the light. Reading your description is jaw-dropping. How brazen - a couple of sociopaths?

 

[cottonweaver]

Am wondering what the jury are making of the pair's behaviour and if the poor grandparents are there.

Edit - note for Gigi - Ellie was fostered with the grand-parents so assume the four adults are not on the best of terms.

 

[cottonweaver]

It's interesting to note Tortoise's account of the scapula injury being 2-3 wks old prior to her death as that is around the time the mother took time off work

As per previous post I'm bumping up :

Now she had only been in that job for 2 weeks apparently, so he was flipping out violently as close to a fortnight before Ellie's death. Ellie dies on 28th.

http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/new...er_trial_told/

She lied ( I'm guessing ) and said BB was away so he couldn't do child care and thus she needed a day off work. It's plausible that actually, he just couldn't cope with Ellie alone as she would have been in so much pain.

The experts have listed so many injuries ( Tortoise's post) that were previously unknown. I would be interested to hear what Ellie's absence record at school was as well as Social service's monitoring records.
( There are a lot of separate injuries there which you would think would be obvious signs to outsiders. The contrecoup injury alone sounds horrific - I wonder if she had suffered some brain damage from this?)

ETA This link is quite good, explaining simply the side effects of eg. contrecoup and why is sometimes does not lead to brain injury, but nonetheless the initial effects on the victim
http://www.healthofchildren.com/G-H/Head-Injury.html

 

[Tortoise]

Thankyou for this Tortoise.
Very interested in BIB- implications of presenting the 2007 evidence when there was the successful appeal.

eta - just seen the next post - tx for these brilliant insights. I was expecting as much from him( just because of reading his 2012 grand-standing interviews), but like you, due to the admission coupled with the death I thought she would have seen the light. Reading your description is jaw-dropping. How brazen - a couple of sociopaths?

Given that she herself suffered DV at his hands, I really can't see how she can dismiss the possibility he murdered Ellie. I think she only cares about being acquitted of cruelty regarding Ellie's broken shoulder. Why she is standing by him and even with him, I have no clue. I hope their other daughter is safe now, from both of them, forever.

I've considered the possibility she has a learning disability but she was working in a professional environment previously and appears in court to be understanding everything, and looks to be of normal intelligence and to have self-esteem. I know that's a bit of a strange thing to say given that she was a victim of abuse, but to maintain this level of defiance and image of blamelessness does require an amount of self-esteem I believe. I don't think it's possible to say more until she gives evidence.

I'll be interested to see if flutterby gets a similar impression. Butler just gave me the creeps, arrogant is how I would describe his facial expression.

 

[squish]

Okay, I'll record my thoughts about the defendants, as some might be interested to hear.

Knowing that Gray has admitted staging the scene for the call to emergency services, I think I had been expecting that she had had a change of heart about what had happened to Ellie before she arrived home, or had possibly accepted that Ellie's injuries were non-accidental. This is not the case.

I think I was also expecting to see some signs of distress and/or a mother's pain, and a somewhat helpless or downtrodden person, and/or a fractured partnership/relationship, on the basis of her letters and the abuse/power wielded by Butler in the relationship, which we've heard about in evidence. I saw nothing like that.

They are an extremely defiant couple and I've seen them operating in court as a very close team. Neither party comes across as weaker/stronger, it was very apparent that their priority is only themselves. They are working in unison, constantly bending forwards to talk to each other across the security officer who sits between them. Also writing notes constantly to send up to their respective counsels. The defiance on their faces is incredible, and the muttering or speaking out can be heard when they disagree with what is being said in court, which was everything that was said in court. Made even worse, in my view, by shaking their heads in a very exaggerated display of opposition, at every utterance from the expert witnesses. Even things like Ellie's earlier broken shoulder blade, they are refuting by fiercely shaking their heads from side to side for minutes on end. I expected the judge to tell them to stop because I found it to be so disruptive. And Butler sat vainly tweaking his spiky hair in the reflection of the glass of the dock, occasionally leaning to the side with his hand over his eyes, in a pose, and then glancing up to see if the jury was looking at him, while Ellie's horrific injuries were being explained to the jury.

It was most disconcerting to see this 'operation' almost like a business being run in the dock, with paperwork and notes strewn all about them, and not see any shame or humility, or signs of being affected by their daughter's suffering and injuries.

My personal opinion about the peppa pig jump/fall off the chair is that it is beyond ludicrous.

Regarding his posing while Ellie's injuries were described, and seeing if the jury were looking at him - what expression/feeling was he trying to convey to the jury with this posing?

 

[squish]

It's interesting to note Tortoise's account of the scapula injury being 2-3 wks old prior to her death as that is around the time the mother took time off work

As per previous post I'm bumping up :

She lied ( I'm guessing ) and said BB was away so he couldn't do child care and thus she needed a day off work. It's plausible that actually, he just couldn't cope with Ellie alone as she would have been in so much pain.

The experts have listed so many injuries ( Tortoise's post) that were previously unknown. I would be interested to hear what Ellie's absence record at school was as well as Social service's monitoring records.
( There are a lot of separate injuries there which you would think would be obvious signs to outsiders. The contrecoup injury alone sounds horrific - I wonder if she had suffered some brain damage from this?)

ETA This link is quite good, explaining simply the side effects of eg. contrecoup and why is sometimes does not lead to brain injury, but nonetheless the initial effects on the victim
http://www.healthofchildren.com/G-H/Head-Injury.html

Yes, I'm now wondering if some of behavioural symptoms (such as hearing voices) were actually due to brain damage. Also, I wonder if the video of her spaced out, eyes closed and swaying could be dizziness from brain trauma.

 

[squish]

I'll post something about my observations of the defendants later today. My concern was not whether it was allowed in terms of court reporting restrictions, but whether it breaks any forum rules. I think if I'm clear about what is my opinion and what is factual there shouldn't be a problem. Can anyone clarify this?

I'm unsure, but I'm certainly grateful to hear your observations! It was fascinating and horrifying - any residual sympathies I had for the mother as a pathetic brainwashed victim have now vanished.

 

[Tortoise]

Regarding his posing while Ellie's injuries were described, and seeing if the jury were looking at him - what expression/feeling was he trying to convey to the jury with this posing?

I can only say from my perspective what it looked like to me, and my impression was that it was a combination of disbelief that he has been accused of this, and trying to portray frustration and being an innocent victim in a set up. It's hard to describe, but something along the lines of he hoped they were looking at him and concerned about him in all this, and not concentrating on Ellie's injuries. Attention seeking!

I feel I need to add a disclaimer here because I'm not a body language expert, it was just my reading of his behaviour.

 

[Gigi-G]

Okay, I'll record my thoughts about the defendants, as some might be interested to hear.

Knowing that Gray has admitted staging the scene for the call to emergency services, I think I had been expecting that she had had a change of heart about what had happened to Ellie before she arrived home, or had possibly accepted that Ellie's injuries were non-accidental. This is not the case.

I think I was also expecting to see some signs of distress and/or a mother's pain, and a somewhat helpless or downtrodden person, and/or a fractured partnership/relationship, on the basis of her letters and the abuse/power wielded by Butler in the relationship, which we've heard about in evidence. I saw nothing like that.

They are an extremely defiant couple and I've seen them operating in court as a very close team. Neither party comes across as weaker/stronger, it was very apparent that their priority is only themselves. They are working in unison, constantly bending forwards to talk to each other across the security officer who sits between them. Also writing notes constantly to send up to their respective counsels. The defiance on their faces is incredible, and the muttering or speaking out can be heard when they disagree with what is being said in court, which was everything that was said in court. Made even worse, in my view, by shaking their heads in a very exaggerated display of opposition, at every utterance from the expert witnesses. Even things like Ellie's earlier broken shoulder blade, they are refuting by fiercely shaking their heads from side to side for minutes on end. I expected the judge to tell them to stop because I found it to be so disruptive. And Butler sat vainly tweaking his spiky hair in the reflection of the glass of the dock, occasionally leaning to the side with his hand over his eyes, in a pose, and then glancing up to see if the jury was looking at him, while Ellie's horrific injuries were being explained to the jury.

It was most disconcerting to see this 'operation' almost like a business being run in the dock, with paperwork and notes strewn all about them, and not see any shame or humility, or signs of being affected by their daughter's suffering and injuries.

My personal opinion about the peppa pig jump/fall off the chair is that it is beyond ludicrous.

I'd be driven mad by that. Plus the actual fact they WERE in the dock. Was becuz poor sweet Ellie lost her life to "DOTING DADDY" puhleeeeze don't insult my intelligence. Really!
I would be extremely narked off at their discretions and titillations.
I would REALLY REALLY love it if the Prosecution could actually someway thru the CT scans they took. That maybe Ellie's first brain injury wasn't all just from the Ventouse delivery system. A baby's skull persay is pliable. With the fontanelle at the top of the skull. And the other areas over the skull are not yet joined and solid. They are this way to compress baby's head thru the birth canal as that is so.e down force and pressure from a contraction n push. If the skull was fully formed n solid. The mother would not be able to delivery naturally.
A Ventouse delivery or a forceps delivery are only ever used as a last resort. Becuz both systems can have issues. As the GRIP baby's head to ease it out.
I don't know how many births are dealt with in this way
But I had forceps. N apart from having an odd shaped head for a few days. There was nothing untoward.
What if the prosecution looked back over Ellie's first brain injury. And under investigation it was said that there were other signs. Not just birthing of SBS.
He (Ben Butler) defended himself at his case for wrongful imprisonment. And had it overturned. And eventually got Ellie back. And then only 11 months passed where she was hurting. Black eyes broken scapula. Bruising to her back. Buttocks. Face... For Ellie to Die in his company AGAIN.

He thinks he's invincible and can get him self off the charges brought to by the court.

Somebody. Please please lock him up. 100 years ain't long enough. But do it. N throw away the key.!!!

And as for mom.. she needs help. She to is Ben Butlers victim. All she wanted was to be loved.

♡

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Gigi-G]

Thankyou for this Tortoise.
Very interested in BIB- implications of presenting the 2007 evidence when there was the successful appeal.

eta - just seen the next post - tx for these brilliant insights. I was expecting as much from him( just because of reading his 2012 grand-standing interviews), but like you, due to the admission coupled with the death I thought she would have seen the light. Reading your description is jaw-dropping. How brazen - a couple of sociopaths?

Yes bring on that 2007 Brain injury of Ellie..... show some light on that. Which can link him to the trial he's under now.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Gigi-G]

Am wondering what the jury are making of the pair's behaviour and if the poor grandparents are there.

Edit - note for Gigi - Ellie was fostered with the grand-parents so assume the four adults are not on the best of terms.

Ty Cottonweaver

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[squish]

I can only say from my perspective what it looked like to me, and my impression was that it was a combination of disbelief that he has been accused of this, and trying to portray frustration and being an innocent victim in a set up. It's hard to describe, but something along the lines of he hoped they were looking at him and concerned about him in all this, and not concentrating on Ellie's injuries. Attention seeking!

I feel I need to add a disclaimer here because I'm not a body language expert, it was just my reading of his behaviour.

Thanks for your interpretation! It's very interesting.

It would have been smarter to pretend to look horrified and saddened, as an innocent father would just be sad to hear the medical details of his daughter's accidental injuries. (But of course it would been smartest to not try any acting at all!)

 

[squish]

Another thing I was wondering, is what impression did the school have of Ellie and her parents? Did Ellie keep missing school? Did she turn up with bruises? Was any reason given for absences and injuries? What was her personality and apparent mental state like? Did BB behave himself for the school?