GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

[Tortoise]

You don't get a better court venue than the Old Bailey. I wonder what today's events will bring


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I think it will be the continuation of witness evidence from last Friday, Professor Risdon, being cross examined, which was where it left off.

He examined the skull fractures during the post mortem, amongst other things. flutterby reminded me that he also said he found no evidence of bone disease, such as brittle bones.

 

[Gigi-G]

I think it will be the continuation of witness evidence from last Friday, Professor Risdon, being cross examined, which was where it left off.

He examined the skull fractures during the post mortem, amongst other things. flutterby reminded me that he also said he found no evidence of bone disease, such as brittle bones.

Great. Hopefully we might get to delve deeper into the 'older' injuries. As if they are proven to be going back 5+ years. Then maybe it will bring about systematic abuse. Which in turn will revoke his former overturned case. Which will give more evidence that sweet Ellie was the subject of his rage from the get go.
I just find it odd. Is it just me? But there's no mention of the other child being abused or harmed.
Now I have alarm bells going off. Why was his rage directed at Ellie?
Was Ellie..... not his? Did he think she wasn't his for whatever reason? Did Jennie fall pregnant before starting her relationship with him?
There is just too much on him using Ellie as a punch bag. To put it bluntly.
Jmoo as always

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[Gigi-G]

Which is why she is being prosecuted for perverting the course of justice. And whatever else they can tag her into. Child cruelty. Child neglect. . He most definitely had her under his spell. It was almost as if she was willing to put anything aside. Just as long as he loved her (yeah right. Until the next time he beat Ellie).
Well I do hope that she receives help for her mental state she's in. No woman should have to put herself or children up for abuse verbal or physical for anyone. It's as if she'd give anything as long as he showed that glimmer of love/lust.

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[flutterby]

Thanks for your insights flutterby.

I've been thinking a bit more about JG's behaviour, and I think she's decided that she has to portray solidarity with BB. The only way she can deny her own role in allowing it to happen is to deny it happened.

What seemed odd to me if that the first witness said that the skull trauma and the scapula injury definitely both happened at different times. They both really reacted strongly to this, shaking their heads and quite loud mutterings of disagreement. Surely if they are pleading innocence of causing/knowing about the injuries then how would they know if they had or hadn't occurred at the same time?

Does anyone know what their defence is with regards to the scapula? Are they pleading ignorance of the injury?

 

[Tortoise]

Great. Hopefully we might get to delve deeper into the 'older' injuries. As if they are proven to be going back 5+ years. Then maybe it will bring about systematic abuse. Which in turn will revoke his former overturned case. Which will give more evidence that sweet Ellie was the subject of his rage from the get go.
I just find it odd. Is it just me? But there's no mention of the other child being abused or harmed.
Now I have alarm bells going off. Why was his rage directed at Ellie?
Was Ellie..... not his? Did he think she wasn't his for whatever reason? Did Jennie fall pregnant before starting her relationship with him?
There is just too much on him using Ellie as a punch bag. To put it bluntly.
Jmoo as always

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Various articles I've read referred to JG and BB being separated when Ellie was a few weeks old (6 or 7 wks?), at the time the incident occurred. Ellie had been dropped off with him for an overnight stay. Could be relevant.

He served 18 months I think for that conviction. I can imagine that might make him resent her - because he hadn't been believed, he had a criminal record.

She was two years older than her sister, and had been fostered by JG's parents. I'm getting the impression that they (or at least some people in JG's life) were not supportive of her decision to go back to him when he came out of prison, which was when she became pregnant with sister. The point about this being that she was more advanced in speech than her sister and may have been more able and inclined to answer back or undermine and question BB's abusive behaviour. Particularly since she would (hopefully) have been in a non-violent environment for 5 years when she would have developed healthy boundaries and been less accepting of abuse/less compliant. I think bullies thrive on having compliant victims. I think this is amply demonstrated in JG's 10 part list of 'problems' with Ellie.

The possible estrangement or unhappy relationship with JG's parents (presumably they may have still had access visits with Ellie) could be another facet in this, reason for resentment and other associated difficulties.

She certainly does seem to have been singled out for abuse, from her sister, when you have regard to the text where BB said (wtte) take Ellie and walk the streets, don't come back.

That very sad picture from the video of Ellie, standing with her eyes shut, makes me think that a safety mechanism had kicked in for her, and she was zoning herself out of the situation. I think that shows that she would not be an easy victim for BB, and he, as I've seen in court, demands attention at all times. He can't handle situations where he is not getting what he wants.

I am puzzled by these prior injuries and how the school weren't aware - if they weren't - maybe we'll hear from them in the trial. It sounds like Ellie would have been in too much pain for school.

One of the pathologists I heard in court mentioned that there was an area of what looked like large bruising on one calf, which I noticed is where she had a bandage in that video. His opinion was that it was blood pooling that arises post mortem. He said it was very difficult to tell the difference between that and bruising. If he hadn't seen the video or known that there was a prior leg injury, I'm wondering if he would have drawn the same conclusion about that 'bruising'.

 

[Tortoise]

What seemed odd to me if that the first witness said that the skull trauma and the scapula injury definitely both happened at different times. They both really reacted strongly to this, shaking their heads and quite loud mutterings of disagreement. Surely if they are pleading innocence of causing/knowing about the injuries then how would they know if they had or hadn't occurred at the same time?

Does anyone know what their defence is with regards to the scapula? Are they pleading ignorance of the injury?

For the defence barrister to ask if it could have happened by a fall down the stairs seems to me to be the excuse they are planning to give. Quite how they can say this now, if they didn't mention it at the time of their arrests, not having sought medical attention for it is another unknown.

I thought similar when I saw them shaking their heads, the blanket denials are more suspicious than anything else, because it sounds as if they deny she was injured but if she was it must have been on one occasion, not more.

It's not making sense yet.

 

[flutterby]

.

I am puzzled by these prior injuries and how the school weren't aware - if they weren't - maybe we'll hear from them in the trial. It sounds like Ellie would have been in too much pain for school.

The surgeon yesterday said that after two weeks or so, somebody with scapula fracture may have limited use of their hand back, as they can rotate at the elbow, but anything that required elevation would cause a lot of pain (such as putting on a blazer or jumper). He said there was no way she could be doing PE at this stage.

 

[Tortoise]

The surgeon yesterday said that after two weeks or so, somebody with scapula fracture may have limited use of their hand back, as they can rotate at the elbow, but anything that required elevation would cause a lot of pain (such as putting on a blazer or jumper). He said there was no way she could be doing PE at this stage.

It's damning evidence. JG would have been better off admitting all this in my view. She's not going to be treated with much sympathy by the judge.

 

[Gigi-G]

Thank you for that insight Tortoise. That's what we Websleuths who rely solely from online media outlets. We don't get to see the expressions or mannerisms that is essential for profiling. That's why I would dearly love for Crown Courts to have a specific channel on TV. Not just visualising from sketches done by artists from the proceedings.

Well bruising doesn't continue after death. Hoping that forensics/Mortician took many photos. Of the injuries externally. I just can't get my head around how on earth did they quieten Ellie in the days following her fractured scapula. My son broke his shoulder socket. By falling off a 2 foot high wall. 😩
The orthopedic surgeon said then my sons injury was an uncommon one too. I showed him the picture of the wall. It's no more than 2ft. But it's the way he fell. Awkwardly. But getting back to Ellie. My son was white/grey in shock. He was shaking feeling sick and by now crying. He was a biggish lad. Almost 6ft. At 15. And he was inconsolable. So I can only imagine what Ellie must of felt. Pain wise.
We took our lad to hospital. He was slabbed up with a cast over his shoulder down his arm. High up on his chest. Sent home with Morphine. With Morphine drenched cotton in his nostrils. He slept on and of and on our arrival back in hospital the following morning.
The only thing I can think of is that Jennie must of bought some fenergen. Used to be given to toddlers who wouldn't sleep.
She must of doped Ellie up with something similar.
As Ellie's video with closed eyes. Is for sure not 'normal'.


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[Gigi-G]

It's damning evidence. JG would have been better off admitting all this in my view. She's not going to be treated with much sympathy by the judge.

Very true but I think she'll stand her ground besides her man I think. He's gotten her so wrapped up in his warped mind.
I do hope tho that her defence gets into her mind set. She needs that cord that binds her to him broken.

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[Tortoise]

Very true but I think she'll stand her ground besides her man I think. He's gotten her so wrapped up in his warped mind.
I do hope tho that her defence gets into her mind set. She needs that cord that binds her to him broken.

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I'm not so sure she is still under any illusions of wanting him now. I think this is a trick, she is out to defend herself and the only way she can do that is to stick to his story in court, and deny the physical abuse of Ellie. She knows he was abusive, her letters reveal that.

 

[Gigi-G]

I'm not so sure she is still under any illusions of wanting him now. I think this is a trick, she is out to defend herself and the only way she can do that is to stick to his story in court, and deny the physical abuse of Ellie. She knows he was abusive, her letters reveal that.

Do you think she's gotten so far along now that she sees him for what he really is?
An evil low life BULLY.
I've met many DV women. And they are almost like brain washed. "If i do as he says when he says he'll love me" scenario. Point being she will never gain his love.. lust yes. Abuse verbally yes. Abuse mentally yes. Until one day. It's her that's got inoperable damage to her brain. Or she's paralysed. Or maybe even DEAD.
I really really really hope this is her FINAL call. Especially with the older brain/skull injuries. That he strenuously denied stating it's from a traumatic birth.
Well Mr Doting Dad. There are no get out of jail cards for you to play this time. I hope you seriously get what you deserve.
And I hope yr fiancé gets this wake up call. N spills everything about you!

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[cottonweaver]

T
The only thing I can think of is that Jennie must of bought some fenergen. Used to be given to toddlers who wouldn't sleep.
She must of doped Ellie up with something similar.

snipped.
I think that is a plausible speculation for her shoulder injury.
In flutterby's account, I see the Defence claimed paracetamol would cover it! What nonsense.


I still want to know how social services give testimony from their ( very long, detailed records!) in a case such as this. Anyone know?

 

[cottonweaver]

I'm not so sure she is still under any illusions of wanting him now. I think this is a trick, she is out to defend herself and the only way she can do that is to stick to his story in court, and deny the physical abuse of Ellie. She knows he was abusive, her letters reveal that.

I'm not following BIB just because of the accounts both of you have given about her making such a big show of co-op and comms with him to the jury. Surely she is showing the jury there is no conflict tween them, that they are still a"couple".

 

[Tortoise]

Do you think she's gotten so far along now that she sees him for what he really is?
An evil low life BULLY.
I've met many DV women. And they are almost like brain washed. "If i do as he says when he says he'll love me" scenario. Point being she will never gain his love.. lust yes. Abuse verbally yes. Abuse mentally yes. Until one day. It's her that's got inoperable damage to her brain. Or she's paralysed. Or maybe even DEAD.
I really really really hope this is her FINAL call. Especially with the older brain/skull injuries. That he strenuously denied stating it's from a traumatic birth.
Well Mr Doting Dad. There are no get out of jail cards for you to play this time. I hope you seriously get what you deserve.
And I hope yr fiancé gets this wake up call. N spills everything about you!

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Well I've tried to look at it from a logical point of view. She cannot have missed Ellie's broken shoulder blade, unless she wasn't living at home. Just cannot. Ellie would not have had the use of her arm for more than a week, that's even without noticing she was in so much pain. And she did not take Ellie to the doctors or the hospital. Which points to it being something she wanted to keep hidden from the authorities. Which in turn points to her knowing it wasn't a tumble down the stairs. Ellie would be able to explain what happened by the age of 6, both to a doctor and to her mother. I don't believe for one minute that she thinks these numerous injuries on different dates were accidental. So she was covering up for him, and knows she didn't protect her daughter. Mind you, one of the concerns on her list about Ellie 'lying' is worrying. But I still think any adult would be able to tell whether those numerous serious injuries were normal childhood clumsiness, or suspicious. She isn't so unintelligent.

My son when he was 3 had a fall in the garden and deeply gashed his forehead on the corner of a low brick wall around some steps, needing stitches. I explained what had happened to the doctor stitching his head, and he said no mummy, the brick hit me. To him, it must have happened so fast or he lost his bearings in the fall, that he just remembered the brick coming towards him. At the time I remember thinking oh my, they are going to think I hit him with a brick! Anyway, I digress, the point is perhaps they couldn't seek treatment because Ellie was old enough to say what had really happened.

She has issues obviously, but I'm confident she doesn't have an unusually low IQ. So it seems to me that she is not following this line of innocence in court to save him, but to save herself, because she is in line for a custodial sentence in my judgment.

 

[Tortoise]

I'm not following BIB just because of the accounts both of you have given about her making such a big show of co-op and comms with him to the jury. Surely she is showing the jury there is no conflict tween them, that they are still a"couple".

not sure I follow you, if she turned against him it would be because she believed he had injured Ellie, in which case she didn't take action as Ellie's mother to protect her, which would be admitting the cruelty charge she is denying. Does that make sense? If she is denying her part she has to deny his part too, and project this couple image.

 

[Tortoise]

A report from this morning

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...-the-result-of-her-copying-TVs-Peppa-Pig.html

and something on the defence pathologist mentioned
http://www.pathsoc.org/conversation...script&option=com_content&Itemid=120#section5

(no surprise that this particular doctor holds some controversial opinions about shaken baby syndrome)

 

[cottonweaver]

Ok.. long post coming up...

The second witness just talked about the scapula and said that Ellie would have been in a lot of pain. Apparently 75% of patients with a broken scapula present with other, usually life threatening illnesses and it's extremely rare for a broken scapula to be seen in isolation. It would initially need to be treated by morphine and over the counter meds would be nowhere near strong enough. The pain would be terrible for 7-10 days and then subside a little. He said that the injuries would have to be caused by a high energy activity, such as a RTC or a fall of at least 5 feet. He was questioned about whether this could be caused by a fall down the stairs. This would be possible but have to involve direct impact with the bone, and it's unlikely because falling down the stairs involves de-accelerating energy.

BB's defence suggested that a child with a high pain threshold may not cry or protest too much about the injury and would be ok with just paracetamol. The witness said this was absolutely not the case.

JG's questioned whether there would be any outward symptoms that would be displayed to somebody who hadn't witnessed the incident. The witness said that in the first few days the child would absolutely be crying in pain. I can't remember the exact wording for the next bit, but they said if the incident had happened in front of parent 1, and the child felt unable to verbalise their pain would parent 2 know what had happened? I can't remember what the witness said, but I think he said no, but that was extremely unlikely.


Finally, BB went back into custody but it looks like JG is on bail. She left the court room. She and BB didn't really seem to interact or talk with each other at the end of the day though.

I really hope I've remembered everything, and remembered everything correctly.

snipped, thanks for all this feedback flutterby.

I like the sound of the witness, he said the right things for the State.
So yes, it looks like they are going to say that yes she had, actually, fallen downstairs on a previous occasion, but they did not feel she was injured and so did not seek med help.

BIB - So, yes as she is on bail somewhere, surely she has given him plenty of telephone credits to call her from jail? I can't see how he would be barred from calling a co-defendant? Does anyone know?

Indeed she is probably on the net every night doing medical research at his behest. ( Let's face it, this is what happened after the 2007 SBS case, he admitted he spent years researching online, well now he is inside maybe he won't be able to do this. ) All this note-taking etc. sounds like this is a real joint research project for the two of them!

 

[cottonweaver]

not sure I follow you, if she turned against him it would be because she believed he had injured Ellie, in which case she didn't take action as Ellie's mother to protect her, which would be admitting the cruelty charge she is denying. Does that make sense? If she is denying her part she has to deny his part too, and project this couple image.

BIb Ah ..ok I kind of get that.
I suppose I am surprised she has not suddenly claimed that the penny has only just dropped for her - that maybe he had lied to her about the stool fall? She denies any previous cruelty charge.
I'm confusing myself now though as I just recalled she is pleading guilty to perverting c of j.

 

[Gigi-G]

Well I've tried to look at it from a logical point of view. She cannot have missed Ellie's broken shoulder blade, unless she wasn't living at home. Just cannot. Ellie would not have had the use of her arm for more than a week, that's even without noticing she was in so much pain. And she did not take Ellie to the doctors or the hospital. Which points to it being something she wanted to keep hidden from the authorities. Which in turn points to her knowing it wasn't a tumble down the stairs. Ellie would be able to explain what happened by the age of 6, both to a doctor and to her mother. I don't believe for one minute that she thinks these numerous injuries on different dates were accidental. So she was covering up for him, and knows she didn't protect her daughter. Mind you, one of the concerns on her list about Ellie 'lying' is worrying. But I still think any adult would be able to tell whether those numerous serious injuries were normal childhood clumsiness, or suspicious. She isn't so unintelligent.

My son when he was 3 had a fall in the garden and deeply gashed his forehead on the corner of a low brick wall around some steps, needing stitches. I explained what had happened to the doctor stitching his head, and he said no mummy, the brick hit me. To him, it must have happened so fast or he lost his bearings in the fall, that he just remembered the brick coming towards him. At the time I remember thinking oh my, they are going to think I hit him with a brick! Anyway, I digress, the point is perhaps they couldn't seek treatment because Ellie was old enough to say what had really happened.

She has issues obviously, but I'm confident she doesn't have an unusually low IQ. So it seems to me that she is not following this line of innocence in court to save him, but to save herself, because she is in line for a custodial sentence in my judgment.

You put it so well. So eloquently. Me I barge in like a bull in a China shop.
I can relate totally to what you're saying.
And yes youngsters from around 3 to 9 seem to have a wonderful way of describing things.
Like my youngest. If I dropped something I'd mutter 'oh sugar!'
Well it didn't take my boy long to catch on.
I'm so glad I watched my language back then.
I really struggle with the broken/fractured scapula. It's an unusual injury were told. I'm not sure how one would get this kind of injury. Has anyone touched on that subject yet?
Any broken bone is hideously painful.
How the hell did they keep it between the family unit?.
Really need a kind of timeline of events. Even if it's approximately. As Ellie must of been enrolled into a school locally. Surely.
And being that the family had been estranged from each other. I'm. Positive there would of been follow up meetings to see how things were progressing.
I'm sorry but far too many inconsistencies surround this tragic tot.
You would have ..... before. Prior. And after..
1: Social Services involved from Ellie's 6 week's old mysterious head traumas.
2: Paediatrician/specialists following up on Ellie's time and stay in hospital.
3: Local authority children welfare officer. Organising temporary care while the case for possible Abuse of a child is prepared.
4: Child and welfare services placement of a child under a register of children 'at risk' in the home environment.

So there you go. That's from 6 week's old.
Ellie would of stayed on that at risk register.
Would have all those specialist's in their field still on Ellie's case. Plus extras as she got older.
5: health visitor.
6: family doctor.
7: family dentist.
8: kindergarten worker.
9: Primary school teacher would be well aware of Ellie's situation.
10: School principal
11: school TSA. One to one tutor to help a few hours a week in lessons.

You can't tell me. That Ellie was kept from seeing any of those 11 specialists in their field. And possibly more. That the lack of ANY ONE of them not seeing her. Wouldn't raise any alarm bells? DING FRICKIN DONG!!

That they failed to see bruising. They failed to see her in pain. Failed to see her becoming more n more withdrawn?

Help .....
Cuz I don't buy that. Unless she was 'home schooled'


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