GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

[cottonweaver]

Cheeky defence lawyer

"He said: "What I'm talking about is someone jumping up and down on the bed and like Peppa Pig, jumps over backwards, falls down and hits her head on the concrete floor, that is the sort of thing I'm talking about.

"Is that the sort of thing that might possibly result in the kind of injuries you saw?""

or was there a concrete floor in her bedroom?

A Peppa Pig DVD was stuck on the menu screen when paramedics arrived to find the little girl's lifeless body minutes later while other items from the pre-school series were dotted around

Surely he didn't pop that in the DVD and get the toys out of drawers and dot them around as part of the careful staging he did before they called the paramedics?

Risdon said she was likely dead within minutes of the injury - so he certainly had plenty of time.

Defence say that Ellie was a fan of PPig, so they must also be saying she was doing dangerous jumping before this incidence, which begs the question why allow your daughter to have all the toys around if she is still dangerously copying PPig. Crock of sh.....bet it's something he dreamt up after one of the previous beatings, he just didn't use it that time.


http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...-the-result-of-her-copying-TVs-Peppa-Pig.html

 

[Tortoise]

She wasn't home schooled gigi, I've read a statement from head teacher of her school after she died. Said she was full of fun etc.

 

[cottonweaver]

gigi - there was a school statement after her death - obviously they kept it sweet and simple, remembering Ellie as a lovely child etc. lots of pals

eta - cross posted

 

[cottonweaver]

Well I've tried to look at it from a logical point of view. She cannot have missed Ellie's broken shoulder blade, unless she wasn't living at home. Just cannot. Ellie would not have had the use of her arm for more than a week, that's even without noticing she was in so much pain. And she did not take Ellie to the doctors or the hospital. Which points to it being something she wanted to keep hidden from the authorities. Which in turn points to her knowing it wasn't a tumble down the stairs. Ellie would be able to explain what happened by the age of 6, both to a doctor and to her mother. I don't believe for one minute that she thinks these numerous injuries on different dates were accidental. So she was covering up for him, and knows she didn't protect her daughter. Mind you, one of the concerns on her list about Ellie 'lying' is worrying. But I still think any adult would be able to tell whether those numerous serious injuries were normal childhood clumsiness, or suspicious. She isn't so unintelligent.
Anyway, I digress, the point is perhaps they couldn't seek treatment because Ellie was old enough to say what had really happened.

snipped

BIB 1 - Yes I expect her to almost say the child was a malingerer - an attention seeker as it fits with what she actually appears to think and therefore she had noprevious reason to think the child was in pain in the last 11 months, that she was exaggerating . Now had she wanted to pass the buck she could have said that Daddy got the child dressed every morning, Daddy gave her pain-relief etc so she was none the wiser.

BIB Yes. On this point I am wondering if anyone knows the likely date of the scapula injury in re to date of death and estimates from witnesses. Does that estimated date fall during the school holidays? Where Ellie might not have contact with other adults?


I know JG had been in that job a very short time - around 4 weeks or so? Wonder if she was working in the previous 10 months and if she had an absence pattern at her previous company or just left Ellie in his care regardless of whether Ellie was sick from previous injuries.

The black eye on the phone is a problem for her - it's very visible - but maybe PPig caused it again.

Even if they had done a deal together for him to take the blame and her to pretend no knowledge, she would have lost the second daughter anyway.

 

[Gigi-G]

snipped.
I think that is a plausible speculation for her shoulder injury.
In flutterby's account, I see the Defence claimed paracetamol would cover it! What nonsense.


I still want to know how social services give testimony from their ( very long, detailed records!) in a case such as this. Anyone know?

My thoughts exactly!
It seems like there's no liason with any of the Professional services. That you would ordinarily expect. From a case such as prominent as this.

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[Gigi-G]

She wasn't home schooled gigi, I've read a statement from head teacher of her school after she died. Said she was full of fun etc.

Ahhhh many thanks Tortoise. You are amazing. Always on the ball.
Did the head teacher mention during her time at the school. Were there many absences. Or was she showing bruising on her more than usual bumps and scrapes?
I used to manage a pretty school kindergarten. My tots were from 18 most to 4 years. When they transitioned into primary school.
It was in our interests to make sure of the children's welfare in our care. If any cuts or bruising was prominent. We would make note. In case a mom got it into her head the marks were done in my premises.
It is and can be a volatile minefield. But in this day and age you've got to be diligent.


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[Gigi-G]

gigi - there was a school statement after her death - obviously they kept it sweet and simple, remembering Ellie as a lovely child etc. lots of pals

eta - cross posted

Thank-you Cottonweaver

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[Gigi-G]

I personally think there's going to be a lot more information coming into the equation
. If not. Why not? Hmmmm

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[flutterby]

BIB Yes. On this point I am wondering if anyone knows the likely date of the scapula injury in re to date of death and estimates from witnesses. Does that estimated date fall during the school holidays? Where Ellie might not have contact with other adults?

snipped.

I think the first witness said 3-5 weeks before she died.

 

[cottonweaver]

I personally think there's going to be a lot more information coming into the equation
. If not. Why not? Hmmmm

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I do too. Plus I agree with you re. the school staff - they are vigilant although I also imagine this pair were truculent with staff - difficult to deal with if there were concerns about child progress or child absence.

And as Flutterby has just posted - 3-5 weeks - IDK the death date, I think it's 28th Oct - so that makes the shoulder injury to be anywhere from mid september right up to the first week of October.

My point was they were taking an awful risk - that Ellie would not spill the beans on them/on Daddy during term-time/parental absence to another adult. Ellie must have been told it must remain secret or she will be put in a home/distressing threats etc etc etc!

 

[cottonweaver]

here's the school statement link again - school is "shocked" at the death, it's an appropriate statement, even if they had had concerns

http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/...hoolgirl_Ellie_Butler_s_mum_appears_in_court/

 

[cottonweaver]

If you google search jenni gray graphic designer sutton an interesting but unrelated conviction comes up from 2011. from 24 dash ( News site ) or this is london.
Comm service sentence. Depression.What a mess.

 

[Gigi-G]

I do too. Plus I agree with you re. the school staff - they are vigilant although I also imagine this pair were truculent with staff - difficult to deal with if there were concerns about child progress or child absence.

And as Flutterby has just posted - 3-5 weeks - IDK the death date, I think it's 28th Oct - so that makes the shoulder injury to be anywhere from mid september right up to the first week of October.

My point was they were taking an awful risk - that Ellie would not spill the beans on them/on Daddy during term-time/parental absence to another adult. Ellie must have been told it must remain secret or she will be put in a home/distressing threats etc etc etc!

Well mid September thru to end Oct will be term time. Half term would start around end Oct. Generally school half term holidays will of started by Oct 31st for Halloween. But half term hols are only a week or so long. 10 max.
The only thing mom could of said. (Cuz didn't the Doc say. That the fractured scapula would be very painful at least for the first 10 days.)
So JG could of passed that off. A fall off a bike maybe..
They are a very Enigmatic couple. They've done this before. Very calculating. And I don't mean just his custodial sentence and the years of studying Head trauma SBS cases and the like. General Abuse case histories no doubt. Thanks for the info Cottonweaver

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[Gigi-G]

here's the school statement link again - school is "shocked" at the death, it's an appropriate statement, even if they had had concerns

http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/...hoolgirl_Ellie_Butler_s_mum_appears_in_court/

Great job thank you...
I do hope they call some of these professionals to take the stand.
You can't tell me that not one saw anything they thought untoward.

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[Gigi-G]

Ooh my gonna check that out.
See what I'm. Pushing at?
There is FAR too much information regarding this case that could open up its own lead of investigations

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[cottonweaver]

Well mid September thru to end Oct will be term time. Half term would start around end Oct. Generally school half term holidays will of started by Oct 31st for Halloween. But half term hols are only a week or so long. 10 max.
The only thing mom could of said. (Cuz didn't the Doc say. That the fractured scapula would be very painful at least for the first 10 days.)
So JG could of passed that off. A fall off a bike maybe..
They are a very Enigmatic couple. They've done this before. Very calculating. And I don't mean just his custodial sentence and the years of studying Head trauma SBS cases and the like. General Abuse case histories no doubt. Thanks for the info Cottonweaver

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BIB Re my last post Gigi, notice the State QC made a point about firstly denying , then saying she worked PT, then finally admitting she worked FT. ( Can't remember if she was not with BB at this point or they had just got back together?The case - it's sentenced feb 2011 to cover period at least from 2010-11, It's before they got the kids back. It's in one of the links here somewhere)

I think we may hear depression crop up again.

Just to put some context here
On Izzy's conception etc - She revealed: “I was terrified that social services would take my baby away.“So I registered under a false name 60 miles away from where I was living.
and by 2012 ( a year later) she is appearing on This Morning - Now you'd think she would have preferred to keep her head down in 2012, off the "telly" because her pic had been in the news, for another matter, the year before.

 

[Gigi-G]

Oh my my my what a tangled Web they do weave.....

http://m.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/Designer-163-10k-cheat-benefits/story-11372434-detail/story.html

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[Gigi-G]

Cheeky defence lawyer


or was there a concrete floor in her bedroom?


Surely he didn't pop that in the DVD and get the toys out of drawers and dot them around as part of the careful staging he did before they called the paramedics?

Risdon said she was likely dead within minutes of the injury - so he certainly had plenty of time.

Defence say that Ellie was a fan of PPig, so they must also be saying she was doing dangerous jumping before this incidence, which begs the question why allow your daughter to have all the toys around if she is still dangerously copying PPig. Crock of sh.....bet it's something he dreamt up after one of the previous beatings, he just didn't use it that time.


http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...-the-result-of-her-copying-TVs-Peppa-Pig.html

I'm not sure of the build of their property. Usually it's concrete on ground floor and wood upstairs. Unless Google throws anything up regarding it.

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[Gigi-G]

snipped.

I think the first witness said 3-5 weeks before she died.

Possibly. Not 100% on that tho. It'd only be estimated either way. She could of been on half term holidays

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[Gigi-G]

BIB Re my last post Gigi, notice the State QC made a point about firstly denying , then saying she worked PT, then finally admitting she worked FT. ( Can't remember if she was not with BB at this point or they had just got back together?The case - it's sentenced feb 2011 to cover period at least from 2010-11, It's before they got the kids back. It's in one of the links here somewhere)

I think we may hear depression crop up again.

Just to put some context here
On Izzy's conception etc - She revealed: “I was terrified that social services would take my baby away.“So I registered under a false name 60 miles away from where I was living.
and by 2012 ( a year later) she is appearing on This Morning - Now you'd think she would have preferred to keep her head down in 2012, off the "telly"

OMG yeah I remember reading that.. and yeah you would of thought she'd keep quiet but I just think that was his doing rather than hers. He was the one that was researching and studying law while in Prison..

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