GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

[Gigi-G]

Wow. So BB repeatedly beat JG and Ellie; is disgusted by the mere sight of JG; forced her to get a late-term abortion; beat her just after the abortion while she was bleeding heavily; tried to stop her going to hospital despite the potentially fatal dangers of an incomplete abortion; and is jobless; demanding; has a disgusting personality; and is average looking. He has literally no redeeming features.

What on earth did she see in him? Why did she repeatedly go back to him after the utterly terrible things he had done? Why did she crave his non-existent love? The only explanation I can come up with is that *she* was obsessed with *him*.

It is clear that BB is incredibly judgemental about appearances, to the point of loathing JG for her imperfections. It sounds like her appearance actually irritated him. Yet she is moderately attractive. His standards are unreasonably high.

I wonder if BB's planning to get Ellie's ears pinned back was because he had such ridiculous demands on the appearance of his girls. Giving his irritation at JG's imperfections, I wonder if BB blamed Ellie's ears for "triggering" his rage.

Also, BB is vain, and possibly wanted Ellie - who looked like a much prettier version of him - to be perfect and reflect him well.

(Of course, Ellie was remarkably pretty despite her average-looking father, and her ears were normal.)

Hi Squish
And yeah.... Doesn't it make yr head spin?

Why would she keep going back. Why put up with the violence?
Why protect him?
Why leave the girls alone with him
She knew what he was like. She must of done?
There's a lot of people asking the same.
She must of known also that Ellie was being slapped etc by him.

Mind is boggling. He's due to take the stand....
NOW THAT WILL BE INTERESTING.


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[Gigi-G]

Hi Squish
And yeah.... Doesn't it make yr head spin?

Why would she keep going back. Why put up with the violence?
Why protect him?
Why leave the girls alone with him
She knew what he was like. She must of done?
There's a lot of people asking the same.
She must of known also that Ellie was being slapped etc by him.

Mind is boggling. He's due to take the stand....
NOW THAT WILL BE INTERESTING.


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Due to take the stand on Friday that should of said lol.

Also. Another quick thought.
Maybe she thought she could change him. Nurture him. Mould him into a man who'd love her back..

But you can't change Narcissism.
The only person BB loves is himself.

He thinks the world owes him everything. He owes nothing. To no one.

I think he will be a very sad lonely individual. Right until his death. Or until he is released from Prison. Which I really hope he gets life. For the awful person he's shown to be in his life so far.

All moo .

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[cottonweaver]

Don't think you're still here GiGi, but have sent you a pm in reply to one of your posts above in case it crosses any reporting restrictions - just to be on the safe side,I previewed my post but not sure anymore....

 

[Gigi-G]

Don't think you're still here GiGi, but have sent you a pm in reply to one of your posts above in case it crosses any reporting restrictions - just to be on the safe side,I previewed my post but not sure anymore....

Ah okay Cottonweaver I didn't notice any pm's. But saying that my whole Internet is being irratic tonight. I've had this shut down on me at least 10 times tonight. My game freezes. And to open my *News media apps* one just refuses.. *pulls hair out*

Oh I just believe I received yr notification lol... how's that for timing?

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[Supernovae]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36260318

However, in the wake of Ellie's death, Ms Gray, also 36, dismissed the texts, telling police they were "not nice" but it was "how he articulates himself".

In a prepared statement she said: "I have not suffered violence from Ben Butler and am certainly not afraid of him, do not feel threatened or controlled by him."

Jurors were also told Mr Butler had been convicted for twice assaulting his ex-girlfriend Hannah Hillman.

He had also previously pleaded guilty to battery after punching a man in a Wimbledon kebab shop who he thought had "touched up" Ms Gray, the court heard.

The case continues.

 

[Supernovae]

More details:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crim...icious-assaults-on-exgirlfriend-a3244946.html

 

[cottonweaver]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36260318

However, in the wake of Ellie's death, Ms Gray, also 36, dismissed the texts, telling police they were "not nice" but it was "how he articulates himself".

In a prepared statement she said: "I have not suffered violence from Ben Butler and am certainly not afraid of him, do not feel threatened or controlled by him."

Jurors were also told Mr Butler had been convicted for twice assaulting his ex-girlfriend Hannah Hillman.

He had also previously pleaded guilty to battery after punching a man in a Wimbledon kebab shop who he thought had "touched up" Ms Gray, the court heard.

The case continues.

Now that's interesting, BIB, if it is accurate re Gray was there with BB
Because the other links from today, gave the date of this incident as "Gray pleaded guilty in 2004 to an assault occasioning actual bodily harm after he punched a man in a kebab shop in Kingston-upon-Thames."
by 20th Aug /05, 9 months later he is assaulting the other GF, previously mentioned in the links.
And yet, in their 2012 interviews etc he implies JG and himself met 2006. By Easter 2006 JG is pregnant with Ellie. ( Correct me if I am wrong on that date someone pls)

SO it really was "off and on" relationship, casual, non-monog at outset, probably his choice? The man with piggy eyes ( look at the photo) played JG alongside other women and thereby got his first hooks in, "perfect" starting point for a woman prone to obsessional love etc. and of course he demonstrated his "love" by assaulting the kebab customer, in her head.

 

[Gigi-G]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36260318

****SPEECHLESS****

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[Gigi-G]

Now that's interesting, BIB, if it is accurate re Gray was there with BB
Because the other links from today, gave the date of this incident as "Gray pleaded guilty in 2004 to an assault occasioning actual bodily harm after he punched a man in a kebab shop in Kingston-upon-Thames."
by 20th Aug /05, 9 months later he is assaulting the other GF, previously mentioned in the links.
And yet, in their 2012 interviews etc he implies JG and himself met 2006. By Easter 2006 JG is pregnant with Ellie. ( Correct me if I am wrong on that date someone pls)

SO it really was "off and on" relationship, casual, non-monog at outset, probably his choice? The man with piggy eyes ( look at the photo) played JG alongside other women and thereby got his first hooks in, "perfect" starting point for a woman prone to obsessional love etc. and of course he demonstrated his "love" by assaulting the kebab customer, in her head.

Agreed...... still speechless at why she'd give a statement stating he never beat her when blatantly it's in black and white. In his and her words

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[cottonweaver]

BB is such a spinner of tales, I wonder how he won't get caught out lying on Friday when he has his "big day" on the stand.

Is our judge going to make allowances for BB as he's bound to swear at some point, even though I expect him to put on a show of being a respectable bloke?

check out the hardliner here - Judge hamilton doesn't pussy-foot around profanity

http://www.nottinghampost.com/Judge-locks-burglar-swearing-dock/story-27674999-detail/story.html

Defendants who swear at judges will go to prison – as one man found when he fired a stream of expletives in court and tried to smash up the dock.

Judge Andrew Hamilton added two months to Lewis Pickering's sentence for contempt of court today.

And the experienced JP said he had never seen such a performance in the 14 years he had been a judge.

"You must not behave like that again," he told a repentant Pickering, who stood solemnly in the dock after his outburst.
Judge Hamilton had told him he had to learn he could not simply go into peoples' houses and come to court and simply walk away.

In response Pickering began screaming his abuse at the judge, who bumped up his time inside by the two months, even after Pickering apologised after a lunchtime break.

 

[Gigi-G]

BB is such a spinner of tales, I wonder how he won't get caught out lying on Friday when he has his "big day" on the stand.

Is our judge going to make allowances for BB as he's bound to swear at some point, even though I expect him to put on a show of being a respectable bloke?

check out the hardliner here - Judge hamilton doesn't pussy-foot around profanity

http://www.nottinghampost.com/Judge-locks-burglar-swearing-dock/story-27674999-detail/story.html

Wow!

Well no court tomorrow. Is that right just Jury reading. Etc.. roll on Friday.

My bet is...... he will have troubles withholding his anger... hmm we'll see

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[cottonweaver]

Agreed...... still speechless at why she'd give a statement stating he never beat her when blatantly it's in black and white. In his and her words

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After more than two days of text abuse, she accused Butler: “Friday 15th*kicked out of room and treated v v badly .sat 16, treated v v abdly, kicked out of street, bleeding very badly and in heavy pain from both.”
“My jaw, back, neck and head still hurt very badly from Friday and Saturday,” she texted.
“You did bad, and knew I was pregnant and was miscarrying and bleeding very badly.”

and

He promised not to be violent but Gray said she wouldn’t return because he had beaten her up, and she would seek refuge in a church.

yep but she'll still try and deny it and fail.
Even though the inferences are crystal clear .

His & her language re assaults are interesting, to me at any rate. Minimising - "treated vv badly" and "you did bad".

He doesn't admit to anything in those texts except "He promised not to be violent" and ".I don't want to b bad that's truth.."

Whatever she comes up with, if she testifies , it won't wash with the jury. :jail:

Beating a miscarrying woman adds some weight to his sociopathy IMO. Something seriously wrong with this man, that can't be cured.

 

[cottonweaver]

Wow!

Well no court tomorrow. Is that right just Jury reading. Etc.. roll on Friday.

My bet is...... he will have troubles withholding his anger... hmm we'll see

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No I think T said no court Thursday - will have to check her post again.

 

[Gigi-G]

After more than two days of text abuse, she accused Butler: “Friday 15th*kicked out of room and treated v v badly .sat 16, treated v v abdly, kicked out of street, bleeding very badly and in heavy pain from both.”
“My jaw, back, neck and head still hurt very badly from Friday and Saturday,” she texted.
“You did bad, and knew I was pregnant and was miscarrying and bleeding very badly.”

and
He promised not to be violent but Gray said she wouldn’t return because he had beaten her up, and she would seek refuge in a church.


yep but she'll still try and deny it and fail.
Even though the inferences are crystal clear .
He doesn't admit to anything in those texts except "He promised not to be violent" and ".I don't want to b bad that's truth.."

Whatever she comes up with , it won't wash with the jury. :jail:

Well it's out there for all to see and no doubt the Jury will be reading even more of the similar tomorrow. Let's hope they are as assertive as the Jury was for NM n SH.
As I think for anything less. They'd be making a huge mistake.

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[Gigi-G]

No I think T said no court Thursday - will have to check her post again.

My minds not too good atm. Post med fog.. it used to be ... post a few vodkas too many. Ha! Age.... don't ya love it! .....not!

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[Gigi-G]

Time for me to go read before sleep overtakes my brain... good night everyone.

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[cottonweaver]

I can't see any issue with posting this that I looked at last night in trying to understand why JG is so ensnared with BB.
I looked at the typical sites which explain why women stay with abusers but the JG & BB situation seems such an extreme case.

Naturally I am mindful that it is silly to try and guess at what she is suffering from, that's a psych's job - but seeing as we are both restricted on what we can hear and say about the case, it might be worth pasting up. For a seemingly intelligent woman to put up with circa 10 years of this appalling abuse there must be something complex going on with JG. ( For me, it's better to see her as partly "mad" rather than just 100% "bad" /evil.)


Starting here -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive_love
"Although not categorized specifically under any specific mental diagnosis by the DSM IV, some people argue that obsessive love is considered to be a mental illness similar to attachment disorder, borderline personality disorder, and erotomania.... They may be entirely convinced that their feelings are love, and may reject the idea that their severe obsession is not love."

I looked at BPD - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder

"BPD....characterized by the following signs and symptoms: a pattern of abnormal behavior characterized by extreme fears of abandonment, unstable relationships with other people, sense of self, or emotions, feelings of emptiness, frequent dangerous behavior, and self-harm.

Markedly disturbed sense of identity
Concerns about abandonment
Splitting (thinking in extremes)
Impulsivity
Intense or uncontrollable emotional outbursts
Chaos in relationships
Unstable interpersonal relationships and self-esteem
Self-damaging behavior
Distorted self-image
Dissociation ( a sense of detachment from emotions and physical experiences)
Frequently accompanied by depression, anxiety, anger, substance abuse, or rage

The most distinguishing symptoms of BPD are marked sensitivity to rejection and thoughts and fears of possible abandonment........
Manipulative behavior to obtain nurturance is considered by the DSM-IV-TR and many mental health professionals to be a defining characteristic of borderline personality disorder....the majority of researchers agree that people with BPD are unlikely to physically harm others. Although people with BPD often struggle with experiences of intense anger, a defining characteristic of BPD is that they direct it inward toward themselves.

Naturally I don't know enough about her and BPD isn't a clear fit with the snippets we do know, but there is something self- harming about her attraction to him and her worst fear does seem to be abandonment. Equally though she may never have suffered from depression at all prior to meeting him but i still think he has triggered a weakness in her that was already there.....
The hypocrite clearly has a low opinion of her mental health, from what he writes in his foul texts, but he still exploits her vulnerability anyway.


Prosecution have themselves said this regard for him is not rational. JG does not seem to easily fit this BPD but there are shades of this, just based on what we have heard AND `there are a bewildering range of BPD sub types and overlaps. Some psychs believe lying is a feature of BPD and that BPD largely affects women. Naturally to have any of these disorders JG would have to have shown signs in adolescence which is something we cannot know about.

Bizarre but it says the United States House of Representatives declared the month of May as Borderline Personality Disorder Awareness Month!

 

[Schmatz]

BIB I appreciate you're genuinely interested in English grammar & style so, just to say, it is "come across" not "come off".

Thank you! I really appreciate your correction. I find that most English nature speaker consider my English to be very good and would not correct me on anything. Their arguments always being that they are not nearly as fluent in another language. So wouldn't want to offend me. However I can't improve if mistakes aren't pointed out. So I am definitely grateful for every help I get.

 

[Schmatz]

Wow. So BB repeatedly beat JG and Ellie; is disgusted by the mere sight of JG; forced her to get a late-term abortion; beat her just after the abortion while she was bleeding heavily; tried to stop her going to hospital despite the potentially fatal dangers of an incomplete abortion; and is jobless; demanding; has a disgusting personality; and is average looking. He has literally no redeeming features.

What on earth did she see in him? Why did she repeatedly go back to him after the utterly terrible things he had done? Why did she crave his non-existent love? The only explanation I can come up with is that *she* was obsessed with *him*.

It is clear that BB is incredibly judgemental about appearances, to the point of loathing JG for her imperfections. It sounds like her appearance actually irritated him. Yet she is moderately attractive. His standards are unreasonably high.

I wonder if BB's planning to get Ellie's ears pinned back was because he had such ridiculous demands on the appearance of his girls. Giving his irritation at JG's imperfections, I wonder if BB blamed Ellie's ears for "triggering" his rage.

Also, BB is vain, and possibly wanted Ellie - who looked like a much prettier version of him - to be perfect and reflect him well.

(Of course, Ellie was remarkably pretty despite her average-looking father, and her ears were normal.)

This I find really hard to understand as well.
Why on earth would you stay with someone like that. I wouldn't consider him to be at all attractive. Obviously she could have done a lot better.
There must have been something in her past to make her want to stay with him. This woman - as we well know anyway - is seriously damaged. Not only through him.

 

[Gigi-G]

Great Post Cottonweaver. I must say very very informative. I really think you've hit the nail on the head there.
There is something between the two of them. And I really am at a loss.
Mind you I've not long woken up. Still in bed ha!
The Grumpy one will bring me my tea and toast then I'm ready for my first round of meds...
I will be around shortly Cottonweaver. Will give me time to study those links you posted properly. As no Court today it's gonna be a quiet one...
Oh my my my.. I've just noticed. He's (BB) Due to take the stand tomorrow. And it's Friday the 13th :shock: anic:
Dum Dum Dum (dramatic music) LOL!

Good Morning everyone!

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