GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

[squish]

good morning. RIP sweet Ellie. I started following this yesterday. I am on thread 11. Can someone please tell me what BIB is??? Is that the same as BBM? (Bolded by me) Im guessing BIB is the same acronym as BBM, just what you all use over in the UK?
I checked the abbreviations page and its not listed. I don't want to scroll through & see if someone already asked because I want to go through page by page. TIA!

BIB= Bit In Bold 🙂

 

[Tortoise]

I agree. Initially I had a lot of sympathy for JG and will still reserve my position pending her evidence on Monday. My issue is this, she seems totally obsessed with BB. Let's remember she didn't really know him when she got pregnant but still after the incident in 2007 chooses him over Ellie as she knows e would not harm Ellie ! How doe she know this when they haven't even been in a proper relationship. Al she had to do was accept it was a possibility BB had done wrong and she would have kept Ellie but she chose not to! She then has another child whilst judging by her web searches BB is being violent to her or hates her and the new child so she was clearly still seeing him then contrary to be interview in 2012 where she says she hid 60miles away under a false name on her own. Then when the second child is taken he is convicted of violence and Although still violent towards her she still hides it all and doesn't mention it to the high court and wins Ellie back from the grandparents. The violence continues and clearly she knows he has a problem with ELlie hence her diary notes but allows it to continue even making excuses for Ellie's non attendance at school and being aggressive in tone and manner to the school. We then have poor Ellie's death and again she has accepted perverting the course of justice , full details of which will probably become clear on Monday but the crux is she once again but BB before Ellie . Then whilst the matter is being investigated they remain an item until March when he is remanded into custody and charged and she is blowing kisses in the court to him! Even then I could still just think maybe just maybe she was so downtrodden she couldn't stop it all and then in the event of Ellie's death and the younger child being taken that she just stuck with him rather than be alone because I don't think her family want to know her. However on now seeing all the evidence especially that awful video and also hearing him effectively sell her down the river you would think she would want nothing to do with him but it doesn't appear like that at all. Maybe Monday will surprise us but I doubt it! Incidentally my thoughts on that video of ELlie are maybe she was being punished by him at the time hence her standing there like that with her arms by her side but that's only my view.

Tortoise you mentioned posting about swimming kit and ears pinned back but I haven't seen anything unless I missed it Also are both families still there. Also do we know if family have got the youngest or has she now been out with more strangers?

My concern is he will walk on this and ironically as he hasn't to my knowledge been charged with pervweting the course of justice JG will receive a custodial sentence whilst he is free. Just a thought !

Re plans of the house I am sure the jury will have been shown pictures and the layout so it is a bit clearer for them as to where it took place. Would be interesting to know if Ellie's room was above the lounge where he was napping as one would have expected him to hear the bang of Ellie falling if that was the case!

In my view she can't admit the truth of the matter, even to herself. That would be admitting she had a choice in the matter and I don't believe she thought she did have a choice, she was with BB through devotion. I think she may not know it but she was incapable of making risk assessments, her desires were stronger. There was something mentioned about the social workers saying they would not allow her to keep her two children if she became pregnant again. I wonder if she had a psychological assessment. She has something, perhaps a borderline personality disorder, where she endangers herself (and obviously her kids) in the pursuit of a love relationship. To admit it would require a self awareness that her actions were so deranged that they led to a death - her responsibility in it. I think cottonweaver suggested BPD and I coudn't see it at the time, but I have come around to it.

Her one and only goal was making him want her or need her, that is what gave her her only sense of worth. They weren't sharing a bed but she still managed multiple 'accidental' pregnancies. No one has 4 accidental pregnancies. It's a psychological fooling of herself that he will be hers, she just has to find a way of hooking him in. If she voiced concern about violence to Ellie she would lose him. She was utterly selfish and devoid of care for her children's well being.

Look at her choice of word here 'I am addicted to a man who doesn't love me. It doesn't matter whether that was BB or someone before him. That is such a powerful word and I don't think she used it lightly. That is her admission that she has no choice or power at all. She abdicates personal responsibility, as if she has a drug in her system. She is addicted to finding love where it doesn't exist. Had she removed the children there would be nothing binding them together and that's the only reason she wanted the children there.

Could she turn him in for murder while still maintaining her own ignorance and innocence? I'm not sure the jury would suck that up. But I think she has blocked out any doubts, she blocked them out before Ellie's death, it didn't matter then so why should it matter now. She is single minded, has one goal, her love addiction. She has nothing else left.

I hope the CPS utilise the services of a good psychologist when they come to examine her.

Back to your questions -

Family haven't been in court for a good few days now. Don't know who has the youngest, but she is definitely in care.

Swimming kit - the school said that Ellie was frequently sent to school without her swimming kit and PE kit. BB denied the PE Kit, said that was made up. He admitted he sometimes forgot the swimming kit because JG wasn't there and it was all too much for him to manage to remember everything, especially when rushing in the mornings. I think the insinuation was that Ellie may have had bruises and he didn't want her undressing at school.

Ear pinning - BB said one day Ellie came to him in the kitchen and asked if she had big ears. He told her no. The next day she came back and said that another child had told her she had big ears. He said to her well tell her she's got a nose like an elephant's trunk. But he then said he thought about it and if she was upset about it he may as well see if there was anything that could be done surgically, but he didn't think there was anything wrong with her ears.

 

[theirmommy]

Thank you Squish!!

 

[cottonweaver]

Welcome to all the new posters from us all - don't want to leave anyone out-

Renee110, Theirmummy & Jog,

:welcome2:

Hope you'll be back on Monday to give us all your take on JG's Evidence in Chief.
I wonder if BB will be nodding/ bobbing up and down in the dock in support of JG whilst she is testifying.....as she has done for him? Or maybe he will just spike up his hair in the dock-glass reflection as Tortoise told us about in the first week.


A poster queried - Confusing shorthand
PS BIB = Bit in bold - yes same as Bolded by Me BBM
UL= Underline
IDK - I don't know....
IIRC... if i recall correctly
You might see a few rude ones come Monday

PS In my previous post about JG I typed "naughty expression" - it was meant to say "haughty"!


ETA _ cross-posted with Squish , it's really slow for me today so I am duplicating, sorry
( edited to add)

 

[Gigi-G]

Hi I have just joined although have been following this case all the way through and think the information posted is fantastic . It is information we would never have reported or reported correctly by the media .I am actually a solicitor in England so can probably answer a lot of the ques raised regarding why things have been done in a certain way throughout the trial. I also have lots of ques to ask as well but I am not sure I am posting correctly so will write further when I can see if this post workst

Welcome Jog. It's always great for new input on WS. And one of a Solicitor nonetheless always good to point us in the legalities of cases.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Gigi-G]

Excuse me for being slow.. I arrived here and had 106 notifications 😲
I am getting round. To reading. Even though I'm on other Links on WS I always get here first.
And the EygptAir is rather technical.. n I'm not an engineer. 😐

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[naomiuk]

L

Sorry cotton and tortoise, dunno how to multi quote yet!! That was why I was thinking that the killer blow came from the living room floor, more likely a concrete one IF he didnt hit her with something etc?! Need to see the pics of the outside if the flat again. Infact whats the address, can look for floor plans?

I found this I am pretty sure it is the same layout
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-pr...l?prop=36788150&sale=47190410&country=england

Hope it helps

 

[cottonweaver]

Could she turn him in for murder while still maintaining her own ignorance and innocence? I'm not sure the jury would suck that up. But I think she has blocked out any doubts, she blocked them out before Ellie's death, it didn't matter then so why should it matter now. She is single minded, has one goal, her love addiction. She has nothing else left.

Swimming kit - the school said that Ellie was frequently sent to school without her swimming kit and PE kit. BB denied the PE Kit, said that was made up. He admitted he sometimes forgot the swimming kit because JG wasn't there and it was all too much for him to manage to remember everything, especially when rushing in the mornings. I think the insinuation was that Ellie may have had bruises and he didn't want her undressing at school.

Ear pinning - BB said one day Ellie came to him in the kitchen and asked if she had big ears. He told her no. The next day she came back and said that another child had told her she had big ears. He said to her well tell her she's got a nose like an elephant's trunk. But he then said he thought about it and if she was upset about it he may as well see if there was anything that could be done surgically, but he didn't think there was anything wrong with her ears.

snipped

BIB More hogwash from him IMO. I only had two notions/guesses why he was doing this and even they are more plausible than his excuse for going to the GP on this as part of his "doctor shopping", keep the GPs on side strategy. It was certainly a cover for something.

UL Yes this is another classic sign that teachers look out for- repeated forgetting of kit - when they have a child at risk in their school.

If this pair do get short sentences I really hope they do not end up conceiving more kids with other partners, obviously those kids would be removed by SS but still....

I was reading about the Michael Stone case recently ( Megan & Lin Russell murder 1996, which I do think was a miscarriage of justice BTW) but it reminded me of the old school "criminal code" operating in the prison he is in - wtte "anything goes except against women and kids" despite the rampant misogyny there. Anyway BB is firmly in this despised category now and I'm sure he will get some abuse for it.

He only spent 3 months inside last time after the SBS conviction, and he says he found that bad enough. Well unless his next medical expert comes up with something good to counter the likes of Emeritus Professor Risdon, Home Office accredited pathologist (and the other Pros experts) I think he will be seeing a longer stretch this summer.

I can't remember now which Personality Disorder she fitted best and it would take a psych a good while to diagnose but i'm sure she has one, as does he. Awful that these two got together but combine two toxic people - one very violent, some largely untreatable PDs- together they create a world of mayhem & suffering - we've seen it before.

 

[cottonweaver]

L

I found this I am pretty sure it is the same layout
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-pr...l?prop=36788150&sale=47190410&country=england

Hope it helps

Thanks naomi , your first post and so useful

and naturally

:welcome:


ETA - 3 decent sized bedrooms too. Am wondering why he says he slept on the couch when they could have put the two girls together temporarily when things were so bad between the pair....so that they both could have a bed. maybe he just wanted to be as far away as possible and near his TV/games etc.
Does anyone recall who slept downstairs in the ground floor bedroom? We know Ellie was upstairs due to the testimony.

 

[naomiuk]

Thanks naomi , your first post and so useful

and naturally

:welcome:

Thank you so much I have been on here for years, but never actually found a way to help before!

 

[cottonweaver]

Thank you so much I have been on here for years, but never actually found a way to help before!

Obviously you are way too modest- so make sure you come back & give us your take on JG's evidence Monday!

 

[cottonweaver]

Posting this ( Tortoise's blood post) up next to naomi's floorplan for comparison

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-pr...l?prop=36788150&sale=47190410&country=england

“ From Tortoise : Just a bit on JG's blood trail in the house.
Ellie's bedroom floor, hallway, bathroom and edge of bath.
Also on the front of the washing machine, tiled wall behind the kitchen sink and corner of bathroom cabinet.
Expirated blood, or from an object soaked with her blood being carried.
Blood on the towel dumped in the bins.

also living room sofa cushion, dilute blood on Ellie's pillow

JG blood from forensic scientist Andrew Bell

"The girl's mother Jennie Gray, 36, left a trail of her own blood spatters along the walls of the hallway outside Ellie's bedroom to upstairs bathroom. In my opinion a bleeding Jennie Gray or an object wet with her blood had dripped blood onto the floor of Ellie Butler's bedroom and that drip-blood trail continued along the hallway into the bathroom.*"

also "Old blood on the towel in the bins was from her abortion. Brown said there was also blood staining on her light blue shirt in the washing machine that had not come out in the 40 degree wash.' ( From T again in court ) IIRC the blood on the JG shirt was her own.

So is Ellie in downstairs bedroom?

 

[Tortoise]

I believe both girls had upstairs bedrooms because he says he took their jam sandwiches up to their rooms. He also sat in sister's bedroom with sister to keep her away from the paramedics attending to Ellie.

What I can't work out from the floor plan is the little landing that he says Ellie landed on when she fell down a few stairs. Unless there is a larger step (like a landing) partway down, that isn't represented in the plan.

Oh, and he said he called up for them to come and have cake, and Ellie asked if she could take the dog upstairs to play with.

 

[Tortoise]

What was that text message where he said wtte 'get to sleep, can't stand your loud voice' wasn't that directed upstairs? Can anyone remember?

 

[naomiuk]

I am wondering if this floor plan is an upside down version of their home, as it shows the floor with kitchen etc. as second floor and the other as ground floor?

 

[jog]

Yes it was. The plan we have is probably the opposite of their as they are maisonettes. The plan we have here suggests the 2 bedrooms are on the ground floor and the living room upstairs whereas from the pictures in the media I have seen of their maisonette it was not a ground floor one so their layout would be the opposite way or 2 bedrooms upstairs rather than the other way round

What was that text message where he said wtte 'get to sleep, can't stand your loud voice' wasn't that directed upstairs? Can anyone remember?

 

[cottonweaver]

What was that text message where he said wtte 'get to sleep, can't stand your loud voice' wasn't that directed upstairs? Can anyone remember?

"In one exchange, Butler warned: 'ur done..ur loud voice upstairs..I've lost it proper, get to sleep ur mother scum, f*** off now.'"

( My note says "undated text" Tortoise, it was however reported in a clutch of mid July texts.)
He was sleeping on the couch I suggested and he has since confirmed that in Oct at least.

Location of Ellie's room - this is prob just misleading

"The girl's mother Jennie Gray, 36, left a trail of her own blood spatters along the walls of the hallway outside Ellie's bedroom to upstairs bathroom."

It makes it sound as if the trail goes up a floor.

ETA - Ok, just seen Naomie's update on floor plan "reversal"

 

[cottonweaver]

this one helps re layout , can't attach, but you see the front door, blank wall adjacent with no window

http://www.suttonguardian.co.uk/resources/images/2705197.jpg?type=articleLandscape

also this one with windows above

 

[Tortoise]

Fascinating post Tortoise. Much of the reason that I am following this case is because I'm trying to work out JG's psychology.

What you have posted is exactly what I gleaned that JG is like, and what I guessed that her relationship with her children was all about.

From what I had read, I had thought that she was juvenile. Her searching for spells to make BB love her, and writing silly prayers to goddesses are the type of things that an adolescent girl would do.

I had wondered what on earth JG sees in BB, but it makes sense if JG's emotional and romantic development is stuck in the adolescent stage. Adolescent girls often develop raging crushes on the baddest, most confident, most dangerous, most aggressive boys, mistaking that behaviour for being alpha males. It makes the young girls feel special and flattered to imagine that while their crush is dangerous to everyone else, he is kind to her because he loves her so much.

Fortunately, as most girls finish puberty, they realise that most of these dangerous boys are worthless losers. Also, the way girls become attracted to boys matures: adolescents develop fast, spontaneous, addictive, intense, irrational, uncontrollable, hormonal attractions, whereas adults slowly grow to like the objects of their desires, taking into account more important things like personality, compatibility, shared values etc. Adults have more control over who they are attracted to.

It seems to me that JG never matured past the adolescent stage of developing addictive crushes (that she mistakes for love) to "bad boys".

Also her googling about being addicted to a man who doesn't love her (presumably a different man to BB since it was before they met) shows her mindset. Love chemicals can be addictive; if we view JG as an addict and BB as her fix, her behaviour starts to make sense. Many addicts will neglect or sacrifice everything and everyone else in their lives, just so they can get their fix.

I agree with your impression that BB loathed her, but would charm her with glimmers of care and affection to keep her clinging on. He would beat her right down (literally and metaphorically) then uplift her just enough to keep her hopes up. That is a common dynamic with abusive partnerships.

I also agree that JG viewed her children as little more than props in her fantasy family life with BB. She got pregnant immediately upon meeting him because she childishly thought it would trap him and make him love her, then repeatedly got pregnant with similar intentions. When the children were with them, she viewed them through the lens of her fantasy relationship with BB. I believe she only fought to get them back so that she could play happy families with BB, to feed her fantasy of love and life with him. I believe BB only fought up get the children back to prove his innocence, and out of a sense of possessiveness. I think them working hard together to fight for custody of the children would have fed her fantasy of them having loving unity together.

In her prayer writings, her hopes for her children are mentioned near the end almost as an afterthought. In statement analysis, order indicates priority, so her children were low down in her list of priorities.

I also think that she may have sometimes bullied Ellie to impress BB and show solidarity with him. Like in the texts when BB called Ellie a **** for wetting herself, and JG agrees that she should be tougher on her and that she wants BB to be tougher too.

I suspect that JG's standing by her man is partly because he is her addiction, and partly because BB will throw JG under the bus and tell the court of any abuse that JG participated in if JG doesn't support him.

Agree with all of this. Great statement analysis too.

Another thing that struck me was the way she invited herself over to his place for the night, after having only just met him fleetingly, and having exchanged just a few words, and telephone numbers, in a club.

Now call me old fashioned, but I would have expected a date first. She didn't know him from Adam, that is taking a chance. And when she called him 157 times to tell him she was pregnant, I think his first reaction was right - she was behaving like a stalker IMO. Reminds me of the film Fatal Attraction.

 

[squish]

Agree with all of this. Great statement analysis too.

Another thing that struck me was the way she invited herself over to his place for the night, after having only just met him fleetingly, and having exchanged just a few words, and telephone numbers, in a club.

Now call me old fashioned, but I would have expected a date first. She didn't know him from Adam, that is taking a chance. And when she called him 157 times to tell him she was pregnant, I think his first reaction was right - she was behaving like a stalker IMO. Reminds me of the film Fatal Attraction.

Her sleeping with him immediately after clapping eyes on him, and rapidly getting pregnant presumably to trap him, makes me wonder if she had previously seen him and was stalking him. It makes me wonder if her search 3 months before meeting BB "I'm addicted to a man who doesn't love me" actually was about BB, with her either stalking him without his knowledge, or with them both lying about when they met.